Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 985024

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

As you probably guessed from the screen name, I'm a Christian. The thing is, I don't fit in with Christians around here, or even on the net (at least not Protestants). I'm all for "Obamacare," I don't have a problem with gay marriage, I'm not pro-abortion but I believe in keeping it legal, and I definitely believe in Unions and anti-poverty policies.

I just don't get it. I can't get on board with the more liberal denomination I was raised in--they seem to have given up on the importance of repentance and self-renunciation as part of the Christian "deal"--but I also can't deal with the knee jerk reactionary conservatism I'm finding in the churches that do embrace what I suppose is a more old-school religion.

What to do? I'm considering Catholicism. Are Christians everywhere like this? I mean, surely in countries where socialized medicine has worked out reasonably well and other programs have improved the quality of life, Christians aren't quite so in line with the worst of conservative politics? Maybe its just Southern USA Christians, and I'm over-generalizing?

I just don't fit in.

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by sigismund on May 10, 2011, at 18:27:49

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

Here abortion is debated in parliament and there is a conscience vote.

It has not become a party political matter as it is in the US.

That must be important.

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by sigismund on May 12, 2011, at 23:13:36

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by sigismund on May 10, 2011, at 18:27:49

I do recall someone from the Heritage Foundation or the Prayer Breakfast or the Family saying that Jesus would have been a great sportsman. It's the sort of thing that stays in your mind.....A team player, committed to private enterprise and small town values. That's the way we like our Jesus.

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 2, 2011, at 21:13:21

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

I don't think so. It seems that way at times, the way Christians are sometimes represented as a voting block.

I live in a fairly liberal area, so many churches 'compete'. Less cynically stated, they meet their parishioners where they are.

Have you done any reading in Catholic mysticism? There is some beautiful writing. And some very tormented, dogmatism, too. Catholics can be as rigid as anyone. I was
raised Catholic and I had to shed all sorts of ideas foisted upon me as a child. However,a seed of that spirituality remains. Mystery and good works. I carry those two things
forward. They can be found, I believe in almost any religion, or in the case of Christianity, in any denomination. I would take it church by church. Watch the people, see how they really treat each other

I feel that religion is reinvented within each person in order to be truly alive. Community. Now that's where it can get sticky. But it's so necessary.

Are you finding anyone like-minded near you?

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 6, 2011, at 15:39:46

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

How about Episcopalian?

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by Christ_empowered on June 6, 2011, at 19:01:43

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 6, 2011, at 15:39:46

hey fb.

Here in the South, Episcopalians are kind of like a country club. They drink a lot, lots of old money families are there, its really not something I'm cut out for. I imagine in other regions its different.

I was raised Presbyterian, and I might return to that. My minister is a Calvinist, so we see eye-to-eye on that. Honestly, I think I just need to *go* to this particular church and grow as a Christian before I go around criticizing their politics. I mean, I'm becoming a little more conservative as I get old (I'm almost 27), but I'll never be a FOX "new" fan or support the NRA. I have my limits, you know?

Anyway, I think I'm just going to try to grow as a Christian in this church and then if I feel called to go elsewhere...I'll try to heed the call as best I can.

Thanks for your posts.

 

Lou's request-pstiareheow Christ_empowered

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 6, 2011, at 21:14:49

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on June 6, 2011, at 19:01:43

> hey fb.
>
> Here in the South, Episcopalians are kind of like a country club. They drink a lot, lots of old money families are there, its really not something I'm cut out for. I imagine in other regions its different.
>
> I was raised Presbyterian, and I might return to that. My minister is a Calvinist, so we see eye-to-eye on that. Honestly, I think I just need to *go* to this particular church and grow as a Christian before I go around criticizing their politics. I mean, I'm becoming a little more conservative as I get old (I'm almost 27), but I'll never be a FOX "new" fan or support the NRA. I have my limits, you know?
>
> Anyway, I think I'm just going to try to grow as a Christian in this church and then if I feel called to go elsewhere...I'll try to heed the call as best I can.
>
> Thanks for your posts.

C_e
You wrote,[...Here in the South, Episcopailians are like a xxx yyy. They vvv a lot...].
I am unsure as to what you used as criteria to portray the subjects as you have written. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. In your use of the word {they}, does the {they} represent:
1. All of the subject people?
2. some of the subject people?
3. something else?
B. What is meant by they xxx {a lot} in the subject people?
C. How did you determine that they xxx {a lot}?
D. Is your depiction of the subject people (redacted by respondent)
Lou

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 7, 2011, at 0:33:56

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on June 6, 2011, at 19:01:43

That sounds good.

Your very welcome.

You're stellar!

 

CE, question.... Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 8, 2011, at 3:34:51

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

Can someone be a Catholic or even a Christian if they do not believe Christ is the only way to salvation?

I am mostly some kind of Buddhist. But I have a child. Where I live, there is no real Buddhist community. It's pretty Zen, which is not the best for me. Besides, most do not have families. Or loud ones.

After your posts, I found myself in
unexpected deep conversation with a real thinking Catholic.

It seemed appealing.

I know this might come offf a bit soft-headed. I miss community. I just couldn't believe Jesus was the only way. Please no offense. I ask you because I respect your intellect.

Thanks,

fb

 

CE, question.... Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 8, 2011, at 11:01:24

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

Can someone be a Catholic or even a Christian if they do not believe Christ is the only way to salvation?

I am mostly some kind of Buddhist. But I have a child. Where I live, there is no real Buddhist community. It's pretty Zen, which is not the best for me. Besides, most do not have families. Or loud ones.

After your posts, I found myself in
unexpected deep conversation with a real thinking Catholic.

It seemed appealing.

I know this might come offf a bit soft-headed. I miss community. I just couldn't believe Jesus was the only way. Please no offense. I ask you because I respect your intellect.

Thanks,

fb

 

Re: CE, question....

Posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 9:49:19

In reply to CE, question.... Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 8, 2011, at 11:01:24

I think the Catholic Church is pretty firm on Christ being the only path to salvation. I think Church Law gives some people a "pass"--people who've never been taught the Gospel, people who die before the age of spiritual maturity, that sort of thing--but, overall, they're all about Jesus. Most Christian denominations are.

The Catholic Church also holds that they are the best way to Christ. I think they recognize most Christian churches as valid, they just believe that Catholicism is the best, fullest expression of Christianity and is Christ's true church.

There's a book I've been meaning to read..."Zen Catholicism". You might find it interesting (and then you can tell me all about it).

 

Re: CE, question.... Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 9, 2011, at 14:37:01

In reply to Re: CE, question...., posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 9:49:19

Thanks. So no going to church for my family?

What do you think about don't ask don't tell?

Or another loophole.

I like to tell my son everyone makes their own way into heaven, and that there are
people of light, such as Jesus, Siddhartha..., that help people find their way.

fb

Will check out that book. Thanks!

 

Re: CE, question....

Posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 21:03:18

In reply to Re: CE, question.... Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 9, 2011, at 14:37:01

I doubt there's a quiz before they let you in the door for mass, but the Church's official teaching is that Christ is the way to Heaven (no man gets to the Father except by me--its in the Bible somewhere).

Personally, it took me a while to become convinced of Christ's claim to exclusivity. I mean, there are so many paths to salvation and enlightenment, how do we know? I came to the conclusion that if I became a Christian, I'd have to take Christ at His word. When He said He was the only way to the Father, I was obligated to believe it. When He said that He was God made flesh, I had to accept that.

Like I said, though, I think the Catholic Church's official teachings allow for more flexibility on salvation than your typical Protestant. Someone might not accept Christ because they've never been taught the Gospel, they might be afflicted with some sort of psychological issue that prevents them from seeing the truth, they may have been heavily indoctrinated into another faith, so on and so forth. I'm no expert on Catholic beliefs, but I think they tend to be a little more humane when it comes to the fate of the unbeliever than, say, the Pentecostals.

 

Re: CE, question.... Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 16:03:22

In reply to Re: CE, question...., posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 21:03:18

CE, I looked at that booked and deemed it too intellectual for me :(

But I did order a book called Compassion and Meditation. I'll report if your interested.

Thomas Merton books galore. Surprised you haven't brushed into him yet. Seems ubiquitous. Didn't order any of his numerous volumes.

Cheers you temporary or tentative Calvanist!

fb

 

Lou's request-fohzdhhrheyhtn floatingbridge

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 10, 2011, at 17:52:23

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 7, 2011, at 0:33:56

> That sounds good.
>
> Your very welcome.
>
> You're stellar!

fb,
You wrote,[...That sounds good...].
I am unsure as to what in the post that you are linking to could sound good if that is the content in question.
If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Is it all the statements in the post that you linked to, if those are the statements in question, that sounds good?
B. If not all of the statements, then which ones sound good?
C. What does {sound[good]} imply to you?
D. Why is it good?
E redacted by respondent
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-fohzdhhrheyhtn Lou Pilder

Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 20:50:54

In reply to Lou's request-fohzdhhrheyhtn floatingbridge, posted by Lou Pilder on June 10, 2011, at 17:52:23

> You wrote,[...That sounds good...].
> I am unsure as to what in the post that you are linking to could sound good if that is the content in question.
> If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Is it all the statements in the post that you linked to, if those are the statements in question, that sounds
good?

Hi Lou,

Umm. I don't think I was referring to all,
but I can't think that intensely today.

> B. If not all of the statements, then which ones sound good?

My interpretation of what CE said, which I took to mean starting where s/he was rather than attempt a radical conversion
(for the time being). (I have nothing against radical conversions in theory.)

> C. What does {sound[good]} imply to you?

That s/he's come to a place of
acceptance regarding the situation.

> D. Why is it good?

Sounds peaceful.

> E redacted by respondent

I don't understand this last part, section E.


Hope you are doing alright, and my response somewhat clarifying. Take good care, Lou.


fb


 

Re: CE, the on-going question Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 21:51:20

In reply to Re: CE, question...., posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 9:49:19

CE, first, thanks for talking about these things with me. I actually exchanged email addresses with an intellectually oriented Catholic woman I met here so we could continue our religiuos discussions.

Wish me luck. Does your belief make the world less lonely for you?

fb

 

Re: CE, the on-going question

Posted by Christ_empowered on June 11, 2011, at 5:51:12

In reply to Re: CE, the on-going question Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 21:51:20

absolutely, my beliefs make my life less lonely.

On the other hand, my beliefs seem to have intensified my emotions. I think about the Big Issues now--life,death, meaning, values, God, etc.--that really didn't bother me when I was younger. Since I've replaced a lot of the secular values I was taught in therapy at an early age with more traditionally Christian ones, I feel things--shame, guilt, pain, anger--that before I could think away with rationalizations and psycho-babble fluff.

 

Re: CE, the on-going question Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 11, 2011, at 12:30:19

In reply to Re: CE, the on-going question, posted by Christ_empowered on June 11, 2011, at 5:51:12

Interesting trade off CE.

Being raised as I was, or that and my nature, I can't remember not thinking about those mysteries. I'd like a container to help hold them. And to help give my boy to do with as he pleased, meaning if I went back to practicing some Catholic hybrid, he'd be free to exercise his intelligent choice.

We, my son and I spoke a number of time about The
Church's role in world history. My kid is into history, esp empire building stuff. The rise and fall of civilizations like pages in a book. He hasn't learned to count the bodies yet, except for here in the states and the American Indians. And then, we simply glossed it. In California there are a lot of old missionaries. And he's a smart guy, so I let him put some stuff together w/o adding the details :-/

Good lord he doesn't know a thing about the Inquisition (!). More about how the church dictated scientific thought, you know, and the sun orbiting the earth. Stuff like that.

Thanks CE

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by hyperfocus on June 11, 2011, at 19:26:16

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

Today it seems that 99% of Christianity is theology, dogma, politics, culture. 1% is actually Jesus Christ. I'm not saying those 4 things aren't important but it's the 1% that's the most important.

Christ would not have been a sportsman that's for sure. Christ was a loner and a radical. He was anti-authority from day one. All of the establishment hated his guts. He didn't have any money. He liked women (a lot) and children and animals. He hated hypocrisy. He hated the rich. He loved knowledge and was very very smart and learned. He was, using the modern connotation of the word, a liberal.

I think one thing you have to do - which is an advantage our age has over say 100 years ago - is to actually read the Bible and read what Christ actually said, and read the Apocrypha or what people outside the Catholic tradition wrote about him. Christianity was a pretty diverse thing in the early years after Christ, with many diverse schools of thoughts trying to understand what Christ said and did. The Roman Catholics exterminated the Coptics and Gnostics and anyone who didn't hold to the Pauline theology and purged their writings from the record. That's just how the Romans did things back then. But thanks to technology anyone today who wants to be a Christian has access to a huge and diverse amount of knowledge they can use to figure the whole thing out. There's a huge library in Rome filled with books on how to be a Catholic, and every day a bunch of people on the TV talk about culture wars and what side you should be on, but if you read the Bible you'll find that there's only a few specific things Jesus said you should and shouldn't do.

I'm conservative in my views because they reflect what I believe Christ's message was. However I don't actually believe that somebody has to be 'saved' or 'baptised' to be a Christian. To me Christ's message was that anybody who followed his 'way' was a Christian. Whether you're a Jew or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever. It's not an exclusive club you have to join. I also don't believe in Heaven or Hell per se. I think the Kingdom of Heaven is within us. I think practicing acts of kindness and forgiveness towards one another helps us move a step closer to it. Most people don't do this though. The way the world is today I doubt Hell could be much worse.

 

Lou's request-phozdhrihndk hyperfocus

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 17:41:49

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by hyperfocus on June 11, 2011, at 19:26:16

hf,
You wrote,[....xxx of the establishment yyyyy his (Christ's) guts...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting readers to think by that statement. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.What groups of people, if that is what you are referring to, make up the establishment?
B. redacted by respondent
C. redacted by respondent
D. redacted by respondent
Lou

 

Lou's request-continued

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 18:15:02

In reply to Lou's request-phozdhrihndk hyperfocus, posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 17:41:49

> hf,
> You wrote,[....xxx of the establishment yyyyy his (Christ's) guts...].
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting readers to think by that statement. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A.What groups of people, if that is what you are referring to, make up the establishment?
> B. redacted by respondent
> C. redacted by respondent
> D. redacted by respondent
> Lou
>
hf,
In reading the statement in question over and over, I am trying to understand why (redacted by respondent). Now I do not know what you are wanting to mean by the statement as to the potential of purporting what is what is as can be seen. If it is what it is, then is it is not what it's not?
My concern here is what other people could think that the statement means, which could be different from what you are wanting people to believe when they read the statement.
You see, this Jesus in question came from a Jewish family. I don't know what you want to mean by {hated}, but many of his followers were Jews.
There were also followers that were Romans and Greeks, and even one of the leaders of the Roman establishment said that he found no fault in him.
and one of the last things that He said was, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-continued Lou Pilder

Posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 20:53:21

In reply to Lou's request-continued, posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 18:15:02

Lou by establishment I simply mean the people who have the power in society who are not accepting of change since it would necessarily mean they would have to give up some of that power. Jesus has never fit in well with those in power, either then or now.

The point I'm making is that Jesus had zero interest in power or even forming a new religion. There are many places in the New Testament where he seems to warn against exactly what Christianity has become today. You're absolutely right - most of Jesus' followers were Jews, and he had no intention of changing that. Jesus himself never gave any directive that Christians separate from Jews - when people asked him about the rules about being righteous he gave them the Ten Commandments. The schism between Judaism and Christianity developed quite a number of years after his death and had nothing to do with the events of the crucifixion. It was purely a theological and political thing that had very little to do with Christ's teachings.

I personally don't have any sort of antagonistic feelings towards Judaism or Jews. I think that the actual message of Jesus precludes any of that from any Christian. My beef is with people like Paul and the Church Fathers who did things like legitimize slavery and inequality in society.

"Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.

Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it."

- The Gospel of Mary Magdalene

 

more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus

Posted by floatingbridge on June 12, 2011, at 21:24:41

In reply to Re: Lou's request-continued Lou Pilder, posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 20:53:21

hp, do you go to a church? If so, what type?

The questions, well, here they are.

I've been listening to a recording artist, Sufjan Stevens. One song that I love says, "I'm not afraid to die, to be you, to see you. I'm not afraid to die, at last."

I don't know what happens when people die. I don't believe in a heaven that I was raised with. That would be a place. I don't even believe in an all inclusive place. I have no idea what happens when we die.

Do people like myself have to remain churchless, faithless? Can one read, as hp has done, and believe in mystery?

Is there a place for that type of inquiry and belief and absolute thirst for...?

Is there some kind of radical Christianity that will allow such ongoing inquiry?

I cannot attend a church or congregation if I am expected to believe in heaven or even one door.

But I am so thirsty.

Does anyone understand what I am talking about?

 

Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp

Posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 23:14:45

In reply to more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on June 12, 2011, at 21:24:41

> hp, do you go to a church? If so, what type?

I was raised Roman Catholic. I do try to go to church every week. I take communion. I try to go to confession when I can. But I don't do these things because they're the rules, I do them because I think they make me a better person.

> I don't know what happens when people die. I don't believe in a heaven that I was raised with. That would be a place. I don't even believe in an all inclusive place. I have no idea what happens when we die.

I don't either. But I do know that salvation is for the living. Why would Jesus heal the sick and comfort the suffering? All the people he healed and wisdom he imparted and examples he set - what point was there if the big payoff happened after we die? This skewed emphasis on afterlife, again, is something that was developed after Jesus. The early Church believed that since life sucked so bad for most people, promise of a heavenly afterlife was a good political platform to run on. In their short-sightedness they couldn't see or care that life could be beautiful for people right here, right now.

>
> Do people like myself have to remain churchless, faithless? Can one read, as hp has done, and believe in mystery?
>
> Is there a place for that type of inquiry and belief and absolute thirst for...?

Before the Roman Catholic tradition the pursuit of wisdom by every man occupied a supreme position in Christian thinking. If you read Apocrypha like Wisdom of Solomon and Sirach, you'll see that Old Testament writers considered wisdom to be the most precious gift from God. This tradition continued with the Essenes and Gnostics. Wisdom is venerated as the first companion to God and is always represented as a woman, a goddess. The whole idea that Eve tempted Adam into eating from the Tree of Life and sinning is misogynistic hogwash. What is life without wisdom? What is power without knowledge? In the beginning was the word. Some scholars believe there was a female counterpart to Yahweh called Asherah who was equally venerated by ancient Hebrew people, before she was written out of the record for whatever reason. Mary Magdalene was the closest and most loved disciple of Jesus and a leader of the early Christians before Paul and the others discredited and destroyed whatever knowledge Jesus intended for her to spread. It's a sad story, in both cases, but that's just how life is. The only church you need fb is the internet. You can start here:
http://www.gnosis.org/library.html
http://www.thenazareneway.com/

> Is there some kind of radical Christianity that will allow such ongoing inquiry?

AFAIK 'Christianity' did not exist until decades after Christ. Jesus welcomed people of all faiths and ethnicities to share in his wisdom. Back in the day people gathered together in plain rooms to discuss and exchange ideas and help each other find a way through life. The discussion we're having here is much closer to what Christianity is supposed to be about than most people realize. This may be a radical idea but that's the point. I'm not saying that community and evangelism isn't important, but Jesus wasn't a politician or a law-giver. I also get the impression that even though he was a powerful orator, he was most comfortable talking to his close companions. Real Christianity has always been a radical and solitary and occasionally intimate undertaking.

>
> I cannot attend a church or congregation if I am expected to believe in heaven or even one door.

You don't have to. The symbolic act of communion is available to anyone, anywhere. Jesus would probably LOL and OMG if somebody gave him a Catholic book of sacraments to read. The idea is to remember the sacrifice and suffering he went through - understand what following in his steps means if you choose to do it. If your heart breaks at the injustice of the world, if you want to try to be a decent person and do no harm to anyone, then be prepared for suffering when they come for you. The only obligation that Christ asks us is to keep the Ten Commandments, always treat others as you would like yourself to be treated, and to forgive your enemies.

> But I am so thirsty.
>
> Does anyone understand what I am talking about?

Yes I do. Even in the darkest depths of depression I was committedly atheist. God just didn't make sense to me for a lot of different reasons. It just seemed pointless. I didn't need a fairy tale to make me feel better or some stupid promise to comfort me about what would happen after this cruel life was done with me. But I have always liked knowledge and, contrary to my expectations, there is a great deal of wisdom and knowledge to be found in religion. Instead of a book of childish sayings and stories, I found in the Bible incredibly beautiful and profound writing on everything that I have always wondered about. I suspect a lot of people who say they don't like the Bible, just like me, have never actually tried reading it.

"In the beginning was the word."

I dare any writer, living or dead, to come up with a better opening line than that.

What I would say fb is trust in wisdom. Seek it out from wherever you can find it. Somebody once said that the best writing is that which tells us what we already know. I suspect many people find solace in spiritual writing because it speaks to something true deep within them - some deep ingrained instinct about justice and compassion and what it really means to be a human being.

It's good that you are thirsty. Most people are not. They close their eyes and rely on brute strength or deceit to get through life. They don't feel 9/10 of what you feel. If you open you heart to wisdom then you're already halfway there to the the Kingdom. But be prepared for suffering.

This is what turned me on to the Old Testament, it's from Job:

There is a mine for silver
and a place where gold is refined.
2 Iron is taken from the earth,
and copper is smelted from ore.
3 Mortals put an end to the darkness;
they search out the farthest recesses
for ore in the blackest darkness.
4 Far from human dwellings they cut a shaft,
in places untouched by human feet;
far from other people they dangle and sway.
5 The earth, from which food comes,
is transformed below as by fire;
6 lapis lazuli comes from its rocks,
and its dust contains nuggets of gold.
7 No bird of prey knows that hidden path,
no falcons eye has seen it.
8 Proud beasts do not set foot on it,
and no lion prowls there.
9 People assault the flinty rock with their hands
and lay bare the roots of the mountains.
10 They tunnel through the rock;
their eyes see all its treasures.
11 They search[a] the sources of the rivers
and bring hidden things to light.
12 But where can wisdom be found?
Where does understanding dwell?
13 No mortal comprehends its worth;
it cannot be found in the land of the living.
14 The deep says, It is not in me;
the sea says, It is not with me.
15 It cannot be bought with the finest gold,
nor can its price be weighed out in silver.
16 It cannot be bought with the gold of Ophir,
with precious onyx or lapis lazuli.
17 Neither gold nor crystal can compare with it,
nor can it be had for jewels of gold.
18 Coral and jasper are not worthy of mention;
the price of wisdom is beyond rubies.
19 The topaz of Cush cannot compare with it;
it cannot be bought with pure gold.

20 Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
21 It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing,
concealed even from the birds in the sky.
22 Destruction[b] and Death say,
Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.
23 God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells,
24 for he views the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.
25 When he established the force of the wind
and measured out the waters,
26 when he made a decree for the rain
and a path for the thunderstorm,
27 then he looked at wisdom and appraised it;
he confirmed it and tested it.
28 And he said to the human race,
The fear of the Lordthat is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+28&version=NIV


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[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
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