Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 832600

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Re: Lou's request for clarification-ghapp

Posted by rayww on June 3, 2008, at 22:25:14

In reply to Lou's request for clarification-ghapp rayww, posted by Lou PIlder on June 3, 2008, at 14:29:08

> A.If you are basing the statement from an authority, what is the authority that you use for the above?

< Lou, it's just logic. The earth came into existence only one way, and frankly, no one quite knows how, we only know it did.

> B. If you cite an authority, are there separation of time periods that could be millions of years?
> Lou
<Lou, my logic says yes. Even Adam and Eve may have lived in the Garden of Eden that long. No one knows how long they lived in the Garden of Eden. Long enough to find names for all the plants and animals at least, and to get to know them. Birth and Death (for humans) was introduced with the fall.

 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-rheighlighihz Lou PIlder

Posted by rayww on June 3, 2008, at 22:39:47

In reply to Lou's request for clarification-rheighlighihz rayww, posted by Lou PIlder on June 3, 2008, at 15:23:21

> You wrote,[...if you do not believe in...you won't see earth life for what it really is...].
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by the above. If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A.Could someone see life for what it really is in a way that is unbeknownst to you?
> Lou

<<
If you don't believe in divine origin you won't see earth life for what it really is. It would be impossible to understand unless you understand the scripture:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=%22god+gave+life%22&help=&wo=checked&search=%22god+gave+life%22&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked&bw=1
A. Yes. There are creative ways of expression that I have never heard nor seen. You have expressed certain thoughts that have added new dimensions to the way I look at them. Perhaps I have done that for you???

 

Re: Jesus is Savior rayww

Posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 4, 2008, at 9:02:50

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior, posted by rayww on June 3, 2008, at 20:28:47

> >
> > If i may ask you one question related to Mormonism? Mormans believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. I don't believe this. John 3:16 says; God so loved the world that He gave His ONE AND ONLY SON, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
> >
>
> Mormons believe God created all of us, including Jesus and Satan. Satan rebelled against his (our)Father and was cast out of heaven. The war in heaven is referenced in the Bible. I include these references in case you are willing. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=war&help=&wo=checked&search=war+in+heaven&do=Search&iw=all&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked&bw=1
>
> God gave His one and only begotten Son. Begotten means born in the flesh. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=begotten&help=&wo=checked&search=begotten&iw=nt&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked&bw=1

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan and Jesus are brothers. Satan was created by God, but Jesus wasn't created, He is God!

-W

 

Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus

Posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 14:41:34

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior rayww, posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 4, 2008, at 9:02:50

> Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan and Jesus are brothers. Satan was created by God, but Jesus wasn't created, He is God!
>
> -W

It is good to be able to discuss and share belief statements.

May I ask, When Jesus comes again will he come in the same body he was resurrected to be?

The Bible bears witness of Jesus' resurrection. He visited with the people for something like 40 days. He showed them he could eat, they touched him and bore witness He was real, yet he could travel through space and time as he wished, as he wasn't confined to gravity or space as we know it on earth. Have you read about it in the NT?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/1/3a

I am grateful we have this record.

In Genesis 1:26, who was God talking to when he said "Let us make man in our image"?

I can't prove that Jesus wasn't created by God the Father, but I can believe that He was.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=jesus+created&help=&wo=checked&search=jesus+created&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked&bw=1


 

Re: Jesus is Savior rayww

Posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 4, 2008, at 15:50:03

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus, posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 14:41:34

> > Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan and Jesus are brothers. Satan was created by God, but Jesus wasn't created, He is God!
> >
> > -W
>
> It is good to be able to discuss and share belief statements.
>
> May I ask, When Jesus comes again will he come in the same body he was resurrected to be?
>
> The Bible bears witness of Jesus' resurrection. He visited with the people for something like 40 days. He showed them he could eat, they touched him and bore witness He was real, yet he could travel through space and time as he wished, as he wasn't confined to gravity or space as we know it on earth. Have you read about it in the NT?
> http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/1/3a
>
> I am grateful we have this record.
>
> In Genesis 1:26, who was God talking to when he said "Let us make man in our image"?
>
> I can't prove that Jesus wasn't created by God the Father, but I can believe that He was.
> http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=jesus+created&help=&wo=checked&search=jesus+created&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked&bw=1
>
>
>
I believe God the Father was talking to Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit...I believe in the trinity; The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe in one God, but three persons in the Godhead. Kind of like I'm a husband, a father, and a son. Each has a different role/purpose, but all are equally God. I don't really know what Jesus will look like when He returns..good question, what do you think?

-W

 

Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus

Posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 17:39:39

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior rayww, posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 4, 2008, at 15:50:03

> I believe God the Father was talking to Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit...I believe in the trinity; The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe in one God, but three persons in the Godhead. Kind of like I'm a husband, a father, and a son. Each has a different role/purpose, but all are equally God. I don't really know what Jesus will look like when He returns..good question, what do you think?

<<
I would use your analogy to show how Jesus can be referred to as both the Father and the Son. I also believe in God the Father and the Holy Ghost. Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Many times in the NT Jesus calls to his Father in Heaven, never as though He were speaking to himself. "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.

Again, the references: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/35
When he appears to the Jews, as in Zech 12-13, they will ask, "what are the wounds in your hands?" At that moment as a nation they will realize and see, but I can't write about it here, you'll have to read it for yourself.

Acts 1:11, He will come in much the same way as they saw him go into heaven. Only he will come in his Father's glory, meaning the cloud surrounding him will be very bright. Anywhere in scripture in says, "LORD" it means Jesus. His coming will be recognized by everyone in the whole earth. It will be an event that cannot be faked by any false Christ.

I'm not quite sure what the Christians believe about Jesus, the Son of God. Was Jesus His own Father? I don't think so. Why not try to give God the Father his own identity? He had the power to command all elements. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she became pregnant with seed from God the Father, and she was still a virgin when Jesus was born. Jesus had power over all elements too, but did not act outside of his father's will. On the cross he suffered until he thought of each one of us, whom he already knew from the spirit world before, and when he was sure he had suffered enough he said "it is finished" and he "gave up the ghost". http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/19/30#30

"I have power to lay down my life, and power to take it up again, This commandment I have received from my father". http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/18#18

I don't know about you, but I love talking about this. With each reference, my testimony is strengthened. I know God lives, and Jesus is the Christ. The spirit bears witness to my soul it is true. I'll probably get blocked for saying that, so, it's been nice. bye

 

Re: Jesus is Savior rayww

Posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 4, 2008, at 17:44:49

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus, posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 17:39:39

> > I believe God the Father was talking to Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit...I believe in the trinity; The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe in one God, but three persons in the Godhead. Kind of like I'm a husband, a father, and a son. Each has a different role/purpose, but all are equally God. I don't really know what Jesus will look like when He returns..good question, what do you think?
>
> <<
> I would use your analogy to show how Jesus can be referred to as both the Father and the Son. I also believe in God the Father and the Holy Ghost. Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Many times in the NT Jesus calls to his Father in Heaven, never as though He were speaking to himself. "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.
>
> Again, the references: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/35
> When he appears to the Jews, as in Zech 12-13, they will ask, "what are the wounds in your hands?" At that moment as a nation they will realize and see, but I can't write about it here, you'll have to read it for yourself.
>
> Acts 1:11, He will come in much the same way as they saw him go into heaven. Only he will come in his Father's glory, meaning the cloud surrounding him will be very bright. Anywhere in scripture in says, "LORD" it means Jesus. His coming will be recognized by everyone in the whole earth. It will be an event that cannot be faked by any false Christ.
>
> I'm not quite sure what the Christians believe about Jesus, the Son of God. Was Jesus His own Father? I don't think so. Why not try to give God the Father his own identity? He had the power to command all elements. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she became pregnant with seed from God the Father, and she was still a virgin when Jesus was born. Jesus had power over all elements too, but did not act outside of his father's will. On the cross he suffered until he thought of each one of us, whom he already knew from the spirit world before, and when he was sure he had suffered enough he said "it is finished" and he "gave up the ghost". http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/19/30#30
>
> "I have power to lay down my life, and power to take it up again, This commandment I have received from my father". http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/10/18#18
>
> I don't know about you, but I love talking about this. With each reference, my testimony is strengthened. I know God lives, and Jesus is the Christ. The spirit bears witness to my soul it is true. I'll probably get blocked for saying that, so, it's been nice. bye

Get blocked for saying that? I don't think so. I can proudly say Jesus is my Lord and Savior, my redeemer, my God! If i'm blocked for saying this...I truly don't care.

-W

 

Re: Jesus is Savior

Posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 17:53:20

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior rayww, posted by Sigismund on June 3, 2008, at 15:48:56

> Hey Ray, you have offered me so much to think about some of which (as it happens) I was thinking about last night. But it is not as if i am coming at this from a (as you might say) secular angle. The best quote in the book I am reading is ( oh my goodness, the civilty rules, but heck, you have to be able to say *something* interesting) 'Atheism is a Christian heresy of the intellectually less subtle sort'.
> I suppose my starting point, being as I am almost entirely ignorant of the history of other religions, is Christian history, and in particular I wonder about the connection between that and some Christian ideas.
>
> So you are Mormon? America has Unitarians too.

<<<
There's no such thing as a coincidence. Perhaps you should keep thinking....;>)
What Christian ideas specifically were you trying to connect to Christian history?
I'm still trying to catch your quote, but I'm sorry, it makes no sense whatsoever. Do you mean if it weren't for Christians there would be no Athiests? Christianity began with Adam and Eve...God taught them all about it in the Garden of Eden. There's the Fall, and Redemption from the Fall. Pretty simple.

 

Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus

Posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 19:22:00

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior rayww, posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 4, 2008, at 17:44:49

> Get blocked for saying that? I don't think so. I can proudly say Jesus is my Lord and Savior, my redeemer, my God! If i'm blocked for saying this...I truly don't care.

<<
Have you noticed how many times I've been blocked? Either I'm a slow learner, or else I don't care either.

 

Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus

Posted by Sigismund on June 4, 2008, at 19:38:54

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior Sigismund, posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 3, 2008, at 10:43:18

Life is full of disappointment. I don't know that I have had so much more than anyone else. Perhaps I have been influenced by this...

I said to my soul, be still, and wait without hope
For hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love,
For love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith
But the faith and the love and the hope are all in the waiting.
Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought:
So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.
Whisper of running streams, and winter lightning.
The wild thyme unseen and the wild strawberry,
The laughter in the garden, echoed ecstasy
Not lost, but requiring, pointing to the agony
Of death and birth.

You say I am repeating
Something I have said before. I shall say it again.
Shall I say it again? In order to arrive there,
To arrive where you are, to get from where you are not,
You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstasy.
In order to arrive at what you do not know
You must go by a way which is the way of ignorance.
In order to possess what you do not possess
You must go by the way of dispossession.
In order to arrive at what you are not
You must go through the way in which you are not.
And what you do not know is the only thing you know
And what you own is what you do not own
And where you are is where you are not. (TS Eliot, East Coker)


 

Re: Jesus is Savior

Posted by Sigismund on June 4, 2008, at 20:12:36

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior IAMtheWalrus, posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 17:39:39

>Many times in the NT Jesus calls to his Father in Heaven, never as though He were speaking to himself. "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.

Well yes. When was the Trinity thought up? The Council of Nicea?

 

Re: Jesus is Savior rayww

Posted by Sigismund on June 5, 2008, at 3:27:09

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior, posted by rayww on June 4, 2008, at 17:53:20

>I'm sorry, it makes no sense whatsoever

I hope you are interested because there is a bit to type.

"Contemporary atheism is a Christian heresy that differs from earlier heresies chiefly in its intellectual crudity. This is nowhere clearer than in its view of religion itself. Marx held to a reductive view in which religion was a by-product of repression; but he was clear that it expressed the deepest human aspirations - it was not only the opiate of the masses, but also 'the heart of a heartless world'. The French Positivists wanted to replace Christianity with a ridiculous Reigion of Humanity; but they understood that religion answered to universal human ends. Only a very creduluos philosopher could believe that showing religion to be an illusion could make it disappear. That assumes that the human mind is an organ attuned to truth - a quasi-Platonic conception that is closer to religion than science and inconsistent with Darwinism. Yet such seems to be the view of contemporary unbelievers.

The chief significance of evangelical atheism is in demonstrating the unreality of secularisation. Talk of secularism is meaningful when it refers to the weakness of traditional religious beliefor the lack of powers of churches and other religios bodies. That is what is meant when we say Britain is a more secular country than the United States, and in this sense secularism is an achievable condition. But if it means a type of society from which religion is absent, secularism is a kind of contradiction, for it is defines by what it excludes. Post-Christian secular societies are formed by the beliefs they reject, whereas a society that had truly left Christianity behind would lack the concepts that shaped secular thought.

Like other ideas secularism has a history. Pre-Christian Europe lacked the distinction between the secular and the sacred in much the same way as poytheistic cultures do. The world itself was sacred, and there could be no question of confining religion to a private sphere - the very idea of religion as a set of practices distinct from the rest of life was lacking. A domain seperate from the sacred was recognised only when Augustine distinguished between the City of Man and the City of God. In this sense secular thinking is a legacy of Christianity and has no meaning except in a context of monotheism. In East Asia, polytheism has lived side by side with mystical philosophies in much the same way that the two coexisted in pre-Christian Europe, and the clash between science and religion that has polarized western societies has not taken place. It is no accident that Darwinism has not triggered culture-war in China or Japan."

 

Re: Jesus is Savior Sigismund

Posted by rayww on June 5, 2008, at 22:15:24

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior rayww, posted by Sigismund on June 5, 2008, at 3:27:09

> I hope you are interested because there is a bit to type.

<<<
thank-you for taking the time. I had to find some quiet time just to read it, and surprisingly it did make sense. It explains the where and why and how of the origins of belief, religious or secular.

It appears the only way for man to sort this out is to have a visit from God himself.

Genealogists have discovered there is a point in research where one's direct ancestor count begins to narrow, rather than expand. We each have something like 735 9th great grand parents, and the number grows fast beyond that, but then it begins to decrease, hinting that we all have a common ancestor. Christians, Jews, perhaps some eastern religions believe that.

Has God ever visited the earth in person? YES. And he commanded that a record should be kept so that we all could know. (to some it is given to see, others to believe on their words) BUT: "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world".

God taught Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They spoke the language of God. The first man and woman could read and write. They were very intelligent. They knew more than we know about creation, the stars and heavens, plants and animals. But when that semi-mortal state ended at the time of the Fall, they were separated from God. They no longer walked and talked with God, but their foundation (religion) was sure. They were given the law of sacrifice, to remind them the day would come when God would be the sacrifice for man, and make it possible to return. Some of their kids rebelled and followed Satan rather than God. Cain was taught by Satan to kill and get gain, so he killed his brother Abel. From there they drifted all over the world, until the flood (earth's baptism), then the continents were divided, and so on.

Evolution prepared the earth to be able to house man, but our ancestors date back to one man and one woman, according to genealogists.

God has appeared, angels have appeared, voices have been heard, and we have witnesses and evidence of the events. The LORD has never done or said anything unless there was 2 or 3 witnesses at least.

What you wrote was interesting, but aren't we glad we don't have to sort through all of the philosophies of man to find religion?

I am.

 

Re: Jesus is Savior..pls read IAMtheWalrus

Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 7:55:55

In reply to Jesus is Savior, posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 2, 2008, at 21:03:40

> Jesus is Savior, Lord and Creator, He gave His life for you and me.
>
> He was the promised son of Abraham, descendant of David in a foriegn land, Angels did tell of His glorious coming born in Bethlehem.
>
> He is the one hope of the nations, He is the Great I AM!
>
> -W


Don't forget, the point is Jesus died for you, for all of us, for sins, and endured suffering, injustice, pain, despair and doubt. Only by remembering and embracing this can we understand Jesus' and our place in the world. It is humbling, at least. Just because you realize his 'greatness' does not mean we are 'greatness'.
That is false glory. Jesus was born in a barn, with smelly animals, and straw and sh*t. Nothing wrong or bad about that, and nothing glorifying about that either.

Jay

 

Re: Jesus is Savior..pls read Jay_Bravest_Face

Posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 24, 2008, at 10:15:19

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior..pls read IAMtheWalrus, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 7:55:55

> > Jesus is Savior, Lord and Creator, He gave His life for you and me.
> >
> > He was the promised son of Abraham, descendant of David in a foriegn land, Angels did tell of His glorious coming born in Bethlehem.
> >
> > He is the one hope of the nations, He is the Great I AM!
> >
> > -W
>
>
> Don't forget, the point is Jesus died for you, for all of us, for sins, and endured suffering, injustice, pain, despair and doubt. Only by remembering and embracing this can we understand Jesus' and our place in the world. It is humbling, at least. Just because you realize his 'greatness' does not mean we are 'greatness'.
> That is false glory. Jesus was born in a barn, with smelly animals, and straw and sh*t. Nothing wrong or bad about that, and nothing glorifying about that either.
>
> Jay
>
>
I know...the above are lyrics from a favorite song of mine.

-W

 

Lou's request for clarification-sumfundtns? Jay_Bravest_Face

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2008, at 10:41:22

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior..pls read IAMtheWalrus, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 7:55:55

J_B_F_,
You wrote,[...for all of us...only by remembering and embracing (a foundation of Christianity)can we understand...our place in the world...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by the statement in question here. If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity ro respond accordingly.
A.In,[...for {all} of >us<...], who are the {us} that you are referring to?
B. In,[...{only} by remembering and embracing (a foundation of Christianity)can >we< understand...>our< place in the world...],(1) who are the {we} that you are referring to? (2), who are the people in the {our} that you are referring to?(3)this has been redacted by respondent
Lou

 

Lou's request for clarification-zroastr IAMtheWalrus

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2008, at 17:46:11

In reply to Re: Jesus is Savior..pls read Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by IAMtheWalrus on June 24, 2008, at 10:15:19

I_A_t_W,
You wrote,[...Jesus was born in a barn, with smelly animals...].
Could you post here the authority, if you are wanting to mean that the statement is true, that you use to write that statement above? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr

Posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2008, at 18:18:19

In reply to Lou's request for clarification-zroastr IAMtheWalrus, posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2008, at 17:46:11

I was born into an "Onward Christian Soldiers' sort of Christianity which much later made me oversensitive to certain types of glory.

(I don't see how it is that much different to getting up in the morning and shouting out 'We are the greatest', three times before breakfast.)

That's my problem with Heaven actually...so much glory, the Sanctus from Bach's B minor Mass notwithstanding.

 

Salvation

Posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2008, at 18:24:26

In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr, posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2008, at 18:18:19

Not all religions have this idea.
Not Buddhism nor Taoism at any rate.
It's just the monotheistic religions?
Would that be right?

 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-sumfundtns? Lou Pilder

Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 22:59:01

In reply to Lou's request for clarification-sumfundtns? Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2008, at 10:41:22

> J_B_F_,
> You wrote,[...for all of us...only by remembering and embracing (a foundation of Christianity)can we understand...our place in the world...].
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by the statement in question here. If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity ro respond accordingly.
> A.In,[...for {all} of >us<...], who are the {us} that you are referring to?
> B. In,[...{only} by remembering and embracing (a foundation of Christianity)can >we< understand...>our< place in the world...],(1) who are the {we} that you are referring to? (2), who are the people in the {our} that you are referring to?(3)this has been redacted by respondent
> Lou

Okay, I am a bit confused, to be honest Lou. I really want to discuss this with you, so I hope you will be patient with me if I miss something. :) Ummm..refering to us, I say every living being, and that will be argued by some that it is only exclusive to certain groups of people. I have my references, and will get them out if anyone wishes. I dont believe Jesus died and suffered for just Christians sins, but all of humanitys. The same applies to your other parts of the question. I dont believe in all of this self-righteous attitude where people brag about their being Christian and it being supreme. Martin Luther again talked a bit about that in the 16th century. That is a man-made egotistical Glory
attitude, made for ones ego. I am a very progressive Christian Lou, and try to be very tolerant and as graceful as possible, as the underlying theme of the Scriptures is Grace.

Hope that helps
Jay


 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Sigismund

Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 23:23:41

In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr, posted by Sigismund on June 24, 2008, at 18:18:19

> I was born into an "Onward Christian Soldiers' sort of Christianity which much later made me oversensitive to certain types of glory.
>
> (I don't see how it is that much different to getting up in the morning and shouting out 'We are the greatest', three times before breakfast.)
>
> That's my problem with Heaven actually...so much glory, the Sanctus from Bach's B minor Mass notwithstanding.

What I was trying to get at in my post. Theology of the Cross takes us away from our own selfish attitudes, and self-righteousness of the bless-me clubs, and the Glory clubs. One interesting little fact. In the book Whats So Amazing About Grace? by Philip Yancey, he notes that Jesus spent far more time with sinners and outcasts then saints. The sinners had no pretense and where honest, while the Saints put on airs, judged him, and sought to catch him in a moral trap.

The Glorified always tried to force a happy face, no matter what. According to the theology of the cross, who Jesus was and what he taught constitutes our most sure knowledge of God. True knowledge of God (and therefore hope) comes from knowing that in Christ God comes near to us in mercy and love. True knowledge of God, that is, then comes from knowing grace.

So, it follows, therefore, that the theological category that most makes sense of Christian hope is NOT optimism; it is Grace. Heaven's Gates may feel more like the deepest love you've ever known, not some typical setting of the Gates and trumpets and all.

Jay

 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Jay_Bravest_Face

Posted by Sigismund on June 25, 2008, at 2:59:24

In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Sigismund, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 23:23:41

>What I was trying to get at in my post. Theology of the Cross takes us away from our own selfish attitudes, and self-righteousness of the bless-me clubs, and the Glory clubs.

Well yes, I understand what you are saying.

Am I right in thinking that the history of those countries with a Christian heritage has been uniquely awful?

 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Sigismund

Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 25, 2008, at 8:58:19

In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Sigismund on June 25, 2008, at 2:59:24

> >What I was trying to get at in my post. Theology of the Cross takes us away from our own selfish attitudes, and self-righteousness of the bless-me clubs, and the Glory clubs.
>
> Well yes, I understand what you are saying.
>
> Am I right in thinking that the history of those countries with a Christian heritage has been uniquely awful?
>
>

Well, every country and religion has it's challenges.
It bothers me somewhat that some people treat their religion like the way they treat taking their dog out for a walk. Many people just don't want to "get their hands dirty", and get to the heart of Scripture. Scripture is drama, poetry, verse, song. It still leaves many things open to interpretation. Even amongst different versions of the Bible, you can find things tilted in a different direction. So, I would say, it is the people, not the religion that has caused so many problems.

Jay :) IMHO...

 

Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Jay_Bravest_Face

Posted by Sigismund on June 25, 2008, at 20:27:49

In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Sigismund, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 25, 2008, at 8:58:19

When I reflected on this I realised that the only terrible series of events committed by a nation without a Christian background that I knew anything about was the Japanese war in WWII.

 

Lou's request for clarification-sigmafndtns? Jay_Bravest_Face

Posted by Lou PIlder on June 25, 2008, at 20:53:26

In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-zroastr Sigismund, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on June 24, 2008, at 23:23:41

> > I was born into an "Onward Christian Soldiers' sort of Christianity which much later made me oversensitive to certain types of glory.
> >
> > (I don't see how it is that much different to getting up in the morning and shouting out 'We are the greatest', three times before breakfast.)
> >
> > That's my problem with Heaven actually...so much glory, the Sanctus from Bach's B minor Mass notwithstanding.
>
>
>
> What I was trying to get at in my post. Theology of the Cross takes us away from our own selfish attitudes, and self-righteousness of the bless-me clubs, and the Glory clubs. One interesting little fact. In the book Whats So Amazing About Grace? by Philip Yancey, he notes that Jesus spent far more time with sinners and outcasts then saints. The sinners had no pretense and where honest, while the Saints put on airs, judged him, and sought to catch him in a moral trap.
>
> The Glorified always tried to force a happy face, no matter what. According to the theology of the cross, who Jesus was and what he taught constitutes our most sure knowledge of God. True knowledge of God (and therefore hope) comes from knowing that in Christ God comes near to us in mercy and love. True knowledge of God, that is, then comes from knowing grace.
>
> So, it follows, therefore, that the theological category that most makes sense of Christian hope is NOT optimism; it is Grace. Heaven's Gates may feel more like the deepest love you've ever known, not some typical setting of the Gates and trumpets and all.
>
> Jay
>
> Jay,
You wrote,[...Tyeology of the cross...According to the theology of the cross, who Jesus was and what he taught constitutes our {most sure} (a foundation of Christianity). True knowledge of God...comes from knowing that in (a foundation of Christianity)...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by the following in the grammatical structure of your statement and if you could clarify this for me, and if you could identify or post an authority, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.Could you identify what is the {theology of the cross} that, I guess, describes who Jesus was and what he taught that constitutes our most (a foundation of Christianity}? And is the {our} the same as in a previous post here?
B.in,[...true knowledge of God comes from knowing that in Christ (a foundation of Christianity)...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here by the above and if you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond acordingly.
This request for clarification in part B has been redacted by respondent.
Lou



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