Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 828440

Shown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Reality

Posted by Forerunner on May 11, 2008, at 10:23:42

Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons i believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we hade always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have.

-Forerunner

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 11, 2008, at 12:44:49

In reply to Reality, posted by Forerunner on May 11, 2008, at 10:23:42

> Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons i believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we hade always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have.
>
> -Forerunner

In fact, month by month, the Universe reveals all sorts of new things that are unexpected. Nobody would have believed that its matter is accelerating outward instead of inward. It doesn't seem to make sense until you take into consideration dark matter. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought to make that story up, even though Einstein got it right where he thought he had blundered. I enjoy both the concrete and the mysterious. However, at the moment, the only mystery to me lies in creation, and man's vain attempt to explain why it occurred at all.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 11, 2008, at 15:44:04

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 11, 2008, at 12:44:49

Oops. I meant dark energy.

> Nobody would have believed that its matter is accelerating outward instead of inward. It doesn't seem to make sense until you take into consideration <dark matter>.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality SLS

Posted by Forerunner on May 11, 2008, at 21:13:32

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 11, 2008, at 12:44:49

> > Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons i believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we hade always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have.
> >
> > -Forerunner
>
> In fact, month by month, the Universe reveals all sorts of new things that are unexpected. Nobody would have believed that its matter is accelerating outward instead of inward. It doesn't seem to make sense until you take into consideration dark matter. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought to make that story up, even though Einstein got it right where he thought he had blundered. I enjoy both the concrete and the mysterious. However, at the moment, the only mystery to me lies in creation, and man's vain attempt to explain why it occurred at all.
>
>
> - Scott

The Christian and the Materialist hold different beliefs about the universe. They can't both be right. The one who is wrong will act in a way which simply doesn't fit the real universe. Consequently, with the best will in the world, he will be helping his fellow creatures to their destruction.

-Forerunner

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 12, 2008, at 6:31:53

In reply to Re: Reality SLS, posted by Forerunner on May 11, 2008, at 21:13:32

> > > Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons i believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we hade always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have.
> > >
> > > -Forerunner
> >
> > In fact, month by month, the Universe reveals all sorts of new things that are unexpected. Nobody would have believed that its matter is accelerating outward instead of inward. It doesn't seem to make sense until you take into consideration dark energy. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought to make that story up, even though Einstein got it right where he thought he had blundered. I enjoy both the concrete and the mysterious. However, at the moment, the only mystery to me lies in creation, and man's vain attempt to explain why it occurred at all.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> The Christian and the Materialist hold different beliefs about the universe. They can't both be right. The one who is wrong will act in a way which simply doesn't fit the real universe. Consequently, with the best will in the world, he will be helping his fellow creatures to their destruction.
>
> -Forerunner


They can both be wrong. They can both be right. The concept of duality allows for two perspectives to represent reality simultaneously. It is analogous to the nature of light. Light is both a wave and a particle stream. However, both counterparts can not be observed and quantified at the same time. One can look at one or the other, but not both. Time and again, physics offers explanations as weird as they are profound.

Perhaps you could go into more detail as to what a Materialist is. I have never heard of this philosophy.

I believe in one God. Regarding organized relions, there are some good ones out there. If one is receptive to an eclectic approach towards building a personal spirituality - for me, anyway, I find there are different ways to conceptualize reality. It is possible that everyone is wrong. However, I like to ponder the nature of existence. I find truths in many religions and spiritual philosophies. For me, the Eastern philosophies resonate well with my Being. Christianity does not. It's not a bad religion though. I think there is much humanity to be portrayed wonderfully in the New Testament. I do not believe that Jesus was divinity here on Earth. For now, my beliefs work for me. I have seen other belief systems work very well for other people.

Which religions or philosophies do you feel are guides to destruction?


- Scott

 

Re: Reality

Posted by Forerunner on May 12, 2008, at 9:25:00

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 12, 2008, at 6:31:53

> > > > Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons i believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we hade always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have.
> > > >
> > > > -Forerunner
> > >
> > > In fact, month by month, the Universe reveals all sorts of new things that are unexpected. Nobody would have believed that its matter is accelerating outward instead of inward. It doesn't seem to make sense until you take into consideration dark energy. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought to make that story up, even though Einstein got it right where he thought he had blundered. I enjoy both the concrete and the mysterious. However, at the moment, the only mystery to me lies in creation, and man's vain attempt to explain why it occurred at all.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > The Christian and the Materialist hold different beliefs about the universe. They can't both be right. The one who is wrong will act in a way which simply doesn't fit the real universe. Consequently, with the best will in the world, he will be helping his fellow creatures to their destruction.
> >
> > -Forerunner
>
>
> They can both be wrong. They can both be right. The concept of duality allows for two perspectives to represent reality simultaneously. It is analogous to the nature of light. Light is both a wave and a particle stream. However, both counterparts can not be observed and quantified at the same time. One can look at one or the other, but not both. Time and again, physics offers explanations as weird as they are profound.
>
> Perhaps you could go into more detail as to what a Materialist is. I have never heard of this philosophy.
>
> I believe in one God. Regarding organized relions, there are some good ones out there. If one is receptive to an eclectic approach towards building a personal spirituality - for me, anyway, I find there are different ways to conceptualize reality. It is possible that everyone is wrong. However, I like to ponder the nature of existence. I find truths in many religions and spiritual philosophies. For me, the Eastern philosophies resonate well with my Being. Christianity does not. It's not a bad religion though. I think there is much humanity to be portrayed wonderfully in the New Testament. I do not believe that Jesus was divinity here on Earth. For now, my beliefs work for me. I have seen other belief systems work very well for other people.
>
> Which religions or philosophies do you feel are guides to destruction?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>

God is a basic fact or actuality, the source of all other facthood. At all costs therefore He must not be thought of as a featureless generality. If He exists at all, He is the most concrete thing there is, the most individual, 'organized and minutely articulated'. He is unspeakable not by being indefinite but by being too definite by the unavoidable vagueness of language...Grammatically the things we say of Him are 'metaphorical': but in a different sense it is our physical and psychic energies that are mere 'metaphors' of the real life which is God.

-4runner

 

Re: Reality

Posted by Forerunner on May 12, 2008, at 12:45:13

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by Forerunner on May 12, 2008, at 9:25:00

God is no fonder of intellectual slackers than of any other slackers. If a person is thinking of becoming a Christian, i warn them they are embarking on something which is going to take the whole of them, brains and all. But, fortunately, it works the other way around. Anyone who is honestly trying to be a Christian will soon find his intellegence being sharpened: one of the reasons it needs no special education to be a Christian is that Christianity is an education itself. That is why an uneducated believer like Bunyan was able to write a book that has astonoshed the whole world.

-4runner

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 12, 2008, at 15:34:10

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 12, 2008, at 6:31:53

It is no crime to be ignorant or to be a slacker. I don't believe these to be sins either. I do not believe that God demands anything of us. People just are. If someone has no desire to invest in religion at all, I am not inclined to judge him as being any less devout as a human being. You don't need to believe in God to be at one with the Universe. After all, the Universe is not God. God is God.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 12, 2008, at 22:03:03

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by Forerunner on May 12, 2008, at 9:25:00

> > > > > Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons i believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we hade always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Forerunner
> > > >
> > > > In fact, month by month, the Universe reveals all sorts of new things that are unexpected. Nobody would have believed that its matter is accelerating outward instead of inward. It doesn't seem to make sense until you take into consideration dark energy. 20 years ago, nobody would have thought to make that story up, even though Einstein got it right where he thought he had blundered. I enjoy both the concrete and the mysterious. However, at the moment, the only mystery to me lies in creation, and man's vain attempt to explain why it occurred at all.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Scott
> > >
> > > The Christian and the Materialist hold different beliefs about the universe. They can't both be right. The one who is wrong will act in a way which simply doesn't fit the real universe. Consequently, with the best will in the world, he will be helping his fellow creatures to their destruction.
> > >
> > > -Forerunner
> >
> >
> > They can both be wrong. They can both be right. The concept of duality allows for two perspectives to represent reality simultaneously. It is analogous to the nature of light. Light is both a wave and a particle stream. However, both counterparts can not be observed and quantified at the same time. One can look at one or the other, but not both. Time and again, physics offers explanations as weird as they are profound.
> >
> > Perhaps you could go into more detail as to what a Materialist is. I have never heard of this philosophy.
> >
> > I believe in one God. Regarding organized relions, there are some good ones out there. If one is receptive to an eclectic approach towards building a personal spirituality - for me, anyway, I find there are different ways to conceptualize reality. It is possible that everyone is wrong. However, I like to ponder the nature of existence. I find truths in many religions and spiritual philosophies. For me, the Eastern philosophies resonate well with my Being. Christianity does not. It's not a bad religion though. I think there is much humanity to be portrayed wonderfully in the New Testament. I do not believe that Jesus was divinity here on Earth. For now, my beliefs work for me. I have seen other belief systems work very well for other people.
> >
> > Which religions or philosophies do you feel are guides to destruction?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
>
> God is a basic fact or actuality, the source of all other facthood.

If God were a basic fact, it would be basic to the human experience to recognize God as you might like to portray Him. This, however, is not reality since organized religions differ so much in their portrayals. And, in fact, there are some religions that have no portrayal of God at all.

It seems to me that it is man who is the source of all facthood.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality SLS

Posted by Forerunner on May 13, 2008, at 10:52:03

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 12, 2008, at 22:03:03

When i want to be something other than the thing God wants me to be, i must be wanting what, in fact, will not make me happy.

-4'r

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 13, 2008, at 11:31:53

In reply to Re: Reality SLS, posted by Forerunner on May 13, 2008, at 10:52:03

> When i want to be something other than the thing God wants me to be, i must be wanting what, in fact, will not make me happy.
>
> -4'r

I contend that, based upon the belief of an omnipotent creator, that everything is exactly as it is supposed to be. What's more, all possibilities exist until the moment is actualized. I believe there are many paths one can choose or forge that will lead him to a place that is exactly right for them. Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee that his place will be pleasant. I know it is a difficult concept to grasp, as is the Trinity, but the duality of fate versus free will occurring simultaneously portrays a world that is glorious, yet unfair. People do not suffer equally, despite being equally devout in thought and in action.

I guess one knows exactly where it is that God always wanted them to be, because they are already there. Why did God want me to suffer? It is not fair that 30 years of my life were painfully ripped away from me. However, that is exactly where I was supposed to be. There isn't always a silver lining or reward for the suffering of the innocent. In such cases, I leave it up to God to understand, for I cannot.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality SLS

Posted by Forerunner on May 13, 2008, at 11:49:55

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 13, 2008, at 11:31:53

> > When i want to be something other than the thing God wants me to be, i must be wanting what, in fact, will not make me happy.
> >
> > -4'r
>
> I contend that, based upon the belief of an omnipotent creator, that everything is exactly as it is supposed to be. What's more, all possibilities exist until the moment is actualized. I believe there are many paths one can choose or forge that will lead him to a place that is exactly right for them. Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee that his place will be pleasant. I know it is a difficult concept to grasp, as is the Trinity, but the duality of fate versus free will occurring simultaneously portrays a world that is glorious, yet unfair. People do not suffer equally, despite being equally devout in thought and in action.
>
> I guess one knows exactly where it is that God always wanted them to be, because they are already there. Why did God want me to suffer? It is not fair that 30 years of my life were painfully ripped away from me. However, that is exactly where I was supposed to be. There isn't always a silver lining or reward for the suffering of the innocent. In such cases, I leave it up to God to understand, for I cannot.
>
>
> - Scott

I believe that all pain is contrary to God's will, absolutely but not relatively. When i am taking a thorn out of my finger the pain is 'absolutely' contrary to my will; i.e., if i could have chosen a situation without pain i would have done so. But, i do will what caused the pain, relatively to the given situation; i.e. granted the thorn i prefer the pain to leaving the thorn where it is. A mother spanking a child would be in the same position; she would rather cause it this pain then let it go on pulling the cat's tail, but she would like it better if no situation which demands a smack had arison.

-4'r

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 13, 2008, at 12:03:51

In reply to Re: Reality SLS, posted by Forerunner on May 13, 2008, at 11:49:55

> I believe that all pain is contrary to God's will

Then, what is Hell all about?


- Scott

 

Re: Reality SLS

Posted by Forerunner on May 13, 2008, at 12:51:21

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 13, 2008, at 12:03:51

> > I believe that all pain is contrary to God's will
>
> Then, what is Hell all about?
>
>
> - Scott

I believe Hell is total seperation from God. It is a choice people make by rejecting God in this life.

About your 30 years of suffering. I too have suffered most of my life (I'm 49) with depression. Scott, don't you believe that perhaps God has allowed you to suffer in order to make you the empathetic, compassionate man you are today? I don't believe He wanted you to suffer, but He allowed it. Could you help others (as i have seen you do) with mental problems if you had not suffered from them yourself? How would you know how they feel, would you even care? Nothing other than experiencing first hand a particular type of 'pain' could help you relate to another person with the same kind of pain. It's difficult to understand, but without experiencing pain we really can't become compassionate people.

4'r

 

Re: Reality Forerunner

Posted by SLS on May 13, 2008, at 13:17:23

In reply to Re: Reality SLS, posted by Forerunner on May 13, 2008, at 12:51:21

> > > I believe that all pain is contrary to God's will

> > Then, what is Hell all about?

> I believe Hell is total seperation from God.

I agree.



> About your 30 years of suffering. I too have suffered most of my life (I'm 49) with depression. Scott, don't you believe that perhaps God has allowed you to suffer in order to make you the empathetic, compassionate man you are today?

:-)

Oh, gosh. I really don't know.

> I don't believe He wanted you to suffer, but He allowed it.

Yes. I still like to think that there is some reason for it.

I consider myself fortunate indeed that my belief in God has become strong despite suffering this painful illness and my vain attempts at justifying it.

Thanks for giving me lots to think about. I will definitely keep in mind those things that I have gratitude for and for the sense of duty I feel to use my gifts for the sake of good.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality

Posted by Sigismund on May 15, 2008, at 16:33:32

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 13, 2008, at 11:31:53

It's the spiritual insight, I guess....

'And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the world is unfolding exactly as it should.'

To which one thinks about various (numberless!) historical situations, and says 'O yeah?', and then 'But have I missed the point?'

It's not much of a problem for me because, whatever idea of God I might have, a Creator who loves me is not believable, unless it is a metaphor for some mental state, which I suppose it was.

 

Re: blocked for week Forerunner

Posted by Dr. Bob on May 16, 2008, at 4:25:57

In reply to Re: Reality SLS, posted by Forerunner on May 11, 2008, at 21:13:32

> The Christian and the Materialist hold different beliefs about the universe. They can't both be right. The one who is wrong will act in a way which simply doesn't fit the real universe. Consequently, with the best will in the world, he will be helping his fellow creatures to their destruction.

You were asked before not to start more than 3 consecutive threads on the same board, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce

Also, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: Reality

Posted by SLS on May 16, 2008, at 5:16:16

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by Sigismund on May 15, 2008, at 16:33:32

Do you believe in a Creator?

Logic dictates to me that there must be. I tend to remove the word "love" when it comes to the motives of Creation, though. Since I can't know the Mind of God, I prefer to study what science comes up with regarding the nature of the Universe. Man does not yet understand the Universe, so that should keep us busy for awhile.


- Scott

 

Re: Reality SLS

Posted by Sigismund on May 16, 2008, at 16:56:14

In reply to Re: Reality, posted by SLS on May 16, 2008, at 5:16:16

>Do you believe in a Creator?

>Logic dictates to me that there must be.


If time exists then there should have been a beginning.

If there was a beginning there should be a first cause.

So long as we can accept 'cause'.

There are, of course, various views relating to causality which I cannot help you with.

Do I believe in a creator?

I simply don't know.


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