Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 814179

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Re: Lou's reply to rayww-lexi Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on March 1, 2008, at 1:02:14

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-lexi, posted by Lou Pilder on February 29, 2008, at 20:48:56

Lou -

I couldn't access that Greek Lexicon, but I'd love to. In fact, I'd really like to know of any resource tools you've used for discerning the original Hebrew and Greek in Scripture... showing how the words were used during that time.

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 1, 2008, at 3:52:41

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-lexi, posted by Lou Pilder on February 29, 2008, at 20:48:56

> > > > Is the sea of glass spoken of in Rev 4:6 referring to the earth in its eternal, celestial state?
> > > >
> > > > Are the four beasts spoken of in the same verse used by John the Revelator to describe heaven, paradise of God, happiness of man, beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air: likening that which is spiritual to that which is temporal; and that which is temporal to that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.
> > >
> > > rayww,
> > > You asked about the passage in The Revelation as in chapter 4, verse 6 and other aspects.
> > > First, The word {beast} is not the best translation in the KJV here. The word in Greek is {zoon} which is just an animal, not always a wild ferocious one. There is a separate word for a wild animal that is ferocious, a beast, that is used in chapter 13 that came out of the sea, not {zoon}. This does make a difference because the symbolism is strikingly similar to the book called Isaiah, chapter 6, and in the book called Ezekial, chapter 1 start at verse 4.
> > > I like the KIng James in verse 1 of chapter 4 where it writes, [...a door was opened in heaven...the first voice that I heard said...come up hither...]. A Jewish person could see that as in chapter 6 of Isaiah. There is much more to this.
> > > Then the {sea} has been revealed to me to be a symbol to represent all of humanity. The sea here as in verse 6,[...And before the throne there was a sea of glass like into crystal...]. This sea is calm, like glass. This has been revealed to me to be the Spirit of God in the humanity that has peace. They are at the throne of God. This sea is different from the sea that the beast came out of due to the nature of those in the two seas that are different.
> > > Lou
> >
> > rayww,
> > Here is a link to a web site that I use that gives many different bible translations to a verse. Notuice here that {beast} is used and in the newer translations, just an animal without a beastly nature is used in the translation of {zoon}.
> > Lou
> > http://bible.cc/revelation/4-6.htm
>
> rayww,
> Here is a link to a lexicon that I use to find the English from the Greek. Check the {ancient Greek} box and put in zoon. It means an animal.
> Lou
> http://www/kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

corrected link;
Lou
http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on March 4, 2008, at 22:37:29

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link, posted by Lou Pilder on March 1, 2008, at 3:52:41

animal/beast, I don't think it matters, as they are similar enough to use in the context which they were used. You start most of your explanations with "it has been revealed to me". Are we to assume you enjoy revelation from God on a regular basis, or was this a one time experience that was pivitol in your life?

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link rayww

Posted by Dena on March 4, 2008, at 23:48:15

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on March 4, 2008, at 22:37:29

I can't speak for Lou (trying to do my best Lou-impersonation...trying to appear taller, more masculine!) ;),

BUT ... speaking for moi, God does regularly reveal things to me. And why not? He's living. He's real. He's all about relationship, which, in my experience, includes communication -- both ways..!

My take on Lou's experience (please edit my perception, Lou), is that he received a rather profound revelation, in a concentrated format ... but I wouldn't be surprised if God hasn't continued to reveal many things to him ever since.

Now, Lou, please give us YOUR version, while I retreat to the time-out corner..!

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link

Posted by rayww on March 8, 2008, at 14:44:56

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link rayww, posted by Dena on March 4, 2008, at 23:48:15

Loudena....gosh that's a pretty name. What do you call revelation? How does it come to you? Is it just an idea that comes to your mind, or can it come from something you read? Does it begin with relationships? Relationships tie in with responsibility to other people.

I'm sure God has many different ways to communicate His will with people. I find it comes as I am moving through an assignment where I'm not quite sure how it's supposed to be done. I know God has an opinion, and where there is a definate right and wrong way to do something, His will is known.

Sometimes it comes as I'm writing. When the focus is there, and the prayer the revealed word flows through. There usually has to be quiet in order to discern, but with practice a person can become so accustomed to working with it, that it can become almost second nature.

Are there laws that govern revelation? I think when God has something He needs done, He chooses a person who already has a relationship with Him. So the laws that govern revelation would be the same as the laws that govern relationship.

How do you form a good relationship with your family? your spouse? your employer? There are things you would and would not do. It's the same for a relationship with God, only I think you practice on your family.

Do we have a responsibility and are we held accountable for what we could have done, or did do with relationships with people/God and is that what life is all about?

I've asked a lot of questions but they all could have been turned around to be statements. Asking questions causes a person to think, and thinking opens the door to revelation.

 

Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 8, 2008, at 15:10:31

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-corrected link, posted by rayww on March 8, 2008, at 14:44:56

> Loudena....gosh that's a pretty name. What do you call revelation? How does it come to you? Is it just an idea that comes to your mind, or can it come from something you read? Does it begin with relationships? Relationships tie in with responsibility to other people.
>
> I'm sure God has many different ways to communicate His will with people. I find it comes as I am moving through an assignment where I'm not quite sure how it's supposed to be done. I know God has an opinion, and where there is a definate right and wrong way to do something, His will is known.
>
> Sometimes it comes as I'm writing. When the focus is there, and the prayer the revealed word flows through. There usually has to be quiet in order to discern, but with practice a person can become so accustomed to working with it, that it can become almost second nature.
>
> Are there laws that govern revelation? I think when God has something He needs done, He chooses a person who already has a relationship with Him. So the laws that govern revelation would be the same as the laws that govern relationship.
>
> How do you form a good relationship with your family? your spouse? your employer? There are things you would and would not do. It's the same for a relationship with God, only I think you practice on your family.
>
> Do we have a responsibility and are we held accountable for what we could have done, or did do with relationships with people/God and is that what life is all about?
>
> I've asked a lot of questions but they all could have been turned around to be statements. Asking questions causes a person to think, and thinking opens the door to revelation.

rayww,
You wrote,[...are there laws that govern revelation...?].
I think that revelation could be of several types. One being something that God wants you to bring to others, like Jonah. Now Jonah was not very cooperative, was he? Then I think that there is revelation that God wants to give to the recipiant for a purpose. I think that in that case, there are laws that govern such. I speak here from a Jewish perspective that one would be to be humble in their relationship with God and another I think would be to keep the commandments that God has given to them.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on March 8, 2008, at 17:14:05

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on March 8, 2008, at 15:10:31

> > You wrote,[...are there laws that govern revelation...?].
> I think that revelation could be of several types. One being something that God wants you to bring to others, like Jonah. Now Jonah was not very cooperative, was he? Then I think that there is revelation that God wants to give to the recipiant for a purpose. I think that in that case, there are laws that govern such. I speak here from a Jewish perspective that one would be to be humble in their relationship with God and another I think would be to keep the commandments that God has given to them.
> Lou


You made two points that I think are prerequisite to revelation: 1. be humble in your relationship with God 2. Keep the commandments that God has given to you

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw rayww

Posted by Dena on March 8, 2008, at 21:08:00

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on March 8, 2008, at 17:14:05

I'm wondering -- what would be the commandments that He's given us?

And how do we define "keep"?

Here's what Strong's says:

1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed

a) (Qal)

1) to keep, have charge of

2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life

a) watch, watchman (participle)

3) to watch for, wait for

4) to watch, observe

5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)

6) to keep (within bounds), restrain

7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or covenant or commands), perform (vow)

8) to keep, preserve, protect

9) to keep, reserve

b) (Niphal)

1) to be on one's guard, take heed, take care, beware

2) to keep oneself, refrain, abstain

3) to be kept, be guarded

c) (Piel) to keep, pay heed

d) (Hithpael) to keep oneself from

Several shades of meaning there...

But, what are the commandments that He's given us, and how do we keep them?

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw

Posted by rayww on March 10, 2008, at 13:07:10

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw rayww, posted by Dena on March 8, 2008, at 21:08:00

> I'm wondering -- what would be the commandments that He's given us?
>
> And how do we define "keep"?
>
> Here's what Strong's says:
>
> 1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed
>
> a) (Qal)
>
> 1) to keep, have charge of
>
> 2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life
>
> a) watch, watchman (participle)
>
> 3) to watch for, wait for
>
> 4) to watch, observe
>
> 5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
>
> 6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
>
> 7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or covenant or commands), perform (vow)
>
> 8) to keep, preserve, protect
>
> 9) to keep, reserve
>
> b) (Niphal)
>
> 1) to be on one's guard, take heed, take care, beware
>
> 2) to keep oneself, refrain, abstain
>
> 3) to be kept, be guarded
>
> c) (Piel) to keep, pay heed
>
> d) (Hithpael) to keep oneself from
>
>
>
> Several shades of meaning there...
>
> But, what are the commandments that He's given us, and how do we keep them?
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
>


Dena, I liked what you wrote, and it gave me an idea, spun from this quote:

Whenever God gives a vision of an image, or beast, or figure of any kind, He always holds Himself responsible to give a revelation or interpretation of the meaning, otherwise we are not responsible or accountable for our belief in it. (Teachings, p. 291.)

I like this statement because it suggests that if I don't understand the meaning I am not held accountable for the belief. I believe it is the same for all the commandments. Once we understand the meaning of a commandment, we will be held accountable for our actions, not just accountable before the laws of the land, but accountable before God.

God sees the heart, the mind, the will. He knows our thoughts, our desires, and what drives us. Magistrates of the law only look at the letter and the written policy, then base their judgement on that.

What you wrote about "keep" is true. We must keep the promises we make before God. (members of my church believe we make promises when we are baptised, or first become a committed member of the (any) church)

Think of your good family name. My grandfather used to say, "never do anything that will tarnish the family name" He valued a good reputation, as had his father, and his father before him. To belong to his family held certain expectations, and we wanted to comply.

We who belong to the family of Christ have chosen to take on His name too. To become a member of Christ's family involves "keeping" His commandments (covenants) close to our heart, so that our desires line up with our actions.

Keeping the commandments then becomes a very personal commitment between the individual and God. Is God accountable for teaching us the meaning and understanding of the commandments first? Are we accountable for knowledge and learning? We glorify God when we gain intelligence, wisdom, understanding, and correct knowledge, because when we have wisdom (God's knowledge) we act accordingly.

You asked me what are some of the commandments I keep. I feel it is important to:
love God
love my neighbor
be kind to my husband and family
take good care of the things the Lord has blessed me with (including my good health)
be honest in my dealings with my fellow man
pray
study scriptures
attend church
repent of mistakes I make
serve in my community and church
stay connected to my extended family
Don't do the don'ts (lie, cheat, steal, kill, or commit adultry)
get married and have kids
help out wherever I can
whatever else I feel led to do in the moment

What do you consider commandments and how do you keep them?

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw rayww

Posted by Dena on March 10, 2008, at 22:01:28

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw, posted by rayww on March 10, 2008, at 13:07:10

I rather like to keep it simple...

In my understanding, He gave us the rules, to show us how we couldn't keep them on our own. I believe He was (has always been) about relationship, not rules...

I believe He took the rules written on stone, and wrote them on my heart -- and now, rather than me living them out, He lives in and through me, keeping the commandments as part of His life.

He simplified things for me... showing that all of the commandments really boil down to: loving God with everything in me, and loving others as myself.

And in another place, He said, "love one another" - and that was the sum total of the commandments.

I also see that as I remain in relationship with Him (being the branch, who clings to the Vine), He produces fruit in me... I don't have to make it happen... I can't, really... I can't push forth fruit.

I see that He created good works for me to do, way before I was around... good works that flow out of the relationship with Him, not things that I have to "come up with"... no checklist to follow, but to just respond to Him who is within me, as He prompts.

I see that rules can be a weapon used against each other -- where people judge one another for not "following" the rules as they've been taught to do. I see that rules can cause great harm... but that relationship is alive, and freeing.

Because I know He loves and accepts me, just as I am, I am free to respond in love to Him... I desire to respond to Him. I no longer feel the need to obey rules in order to earn His love or approval -- I already have them.

Because He loves me, I WANT to love Him back, and to love others out of the overflow of His love in me...!

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw Dena

Posted by rayww on March 13, 2008, at 23:03:18

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw rayww, posted by Dena on March 10, 2008, at 22:01:28

Occasionally I come across a blog that I really like. I'm not sure you will make the connection with this quote and your last response, but let me preceed it with one comment - Sometimes as Christians we think because Christ works through us we are always happy doing it, but doing Christ's work sometimes really sucks.

"Its the assumption that feeling bad or sad or anxious or depressed is categorically the wrong way to feel. There are some things that happen to people that they should be anxious, sad, or depressed about. There are some things where this is the right response. We acknowledge this with what we call grief. We recognize that grieving is proper and healthy under certain circumstances. It seems to me that this model might call for application with regard to quite a few other negative (for lack of a better word) emotional states. There are cases where people feel bad for merely physiological reasons, and those need to be addressed physiologically, often including medication. if someone experiences a traumatic event or situation to which the right, proper emotional response is to be depressed for weeks or months or whatever, she or he will need to cope in various ways to continue with the business of living. This sensible coping may include medication. But I dont think that means those are the wrong emotions to have. We read that Christ experienced emotions that a mortal person cannot feel and remain alive. Were those the wrong emotions? Elijah wanted to die. It wasnt because of something wrong with him. It was because of something wrong with the world he was living in. We need to retain the ability to locate the causes where they are."

"What are the benefits of service? (As opposed to it making me happy) The most important benefit comes to the person who is served.
Why do we have trials and sorrows? (As opposed to it making me happier in the end) Its the type of life that God lives"

"I dont think as members of the church we should be happier than anyone else or cheerful 24/7. We are all going to have our ups and downs and it gives me comfort when I read the scriptures and realize that many of the great prophets also experienced discouragement and inadequacies. I think we do a disservice in the church culture at times by acting like if you are righteous and doing the right things, you will be happy so if you are not happy, you must be doing something wrong. Life is tough.it is a testand I havent met many people who dont have a large burden to bear in some fashion. I think the gospel of Jesus Christ can give us hope and perspective.and the Spirit can bring us peace.but it doesnt always take away the pain and difficulty of facing the trials of life. "

And...I would add keeping the commandments isn't always easy, and the life it produces isn't always fun. We accept that, and the tough get stronger as they walk and struggle through life.

 

Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcmncoman

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 15, 2008, at 15:02:40

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw Dena, posted by rayww on March 13, 2008, at 23:03:18

> Occasionally I come across a blog that I really like. I'm not sure you will make the connection with this quote and your last response, but let me preceed it with one comment - Sometimes as Christians we think because Christ works through us we are always happy doing it, but doing Christ's work sometimes really sucks.
>
> "Its the assumption that feeling bad or sad or anxious or depressed is categorically the wrong way to feel. There are some things that happen to people that they should be anxious, sad, or depressed about. There are some things where this is the right response. We acknowledge this with what we call grief. We recognize that grieving is proper and healthy under certain circumstances. It seems to me that this model might call for application with regard to quite a few other negative (for lack of a better word) emotional states. There are cases where people feel bad for merely physiological reasons, and those need to be addressed physiologically, often including medication. if someone experiences a traumatic event or situation to which the right, proper emotional response is to be depressed for weeks or months or whatever, she or he will need to cope in various ways to continue with the business of living. This sensible coping may include medication. But I dont think that means those are the wrong emotions to have. We read that Christ experienced emotions that a mortal person cannot feel and remain alive. Were those the wrong emotions? Elijah wanted to die. It wasnt because of something wrong with him. It was because of something wrong with the world he was living in. We need to retain the ability to locate the causes where they are."
>
> "What are the benefits of service? (As opposed to it making me happy) The most important benefit comes to the person who is served.
> Why do we have trials and sorrows? (As opposed to it making me happier in the end) Its the type of life that God lives"
>
> "I dont think as members of the church we should be happier than anyone else or cheerful 24/7. We are all going to have our ups and downs and it gives me comfort when I read the scriptures and realize that many of the great prophets also experienced discouragement and inadequacies. I think we do a disservice in the church culture at times by acting like if you are righteous and doing the right things, you will be happy so if you are not happy, you must be doing something wrong. Life is tough.it is a testand I havent met many people who dont have a large burden to bear in some fashion. I think the gospel of Jesus Christ can give us hope and perspective.and the Spirit can bring us peace.but it doesnt always take away the pain and difficulty of facing the trials of life. "
>
> And...I would add keeping the commandments isn't always easy, and the life it produces isn't always fun. We accept that, and the tough get stronger as they walk and struggle through life.
>

rayww,
You wrote,[...keeping...not always easy...not always fun...{get stronger} as they walk and struggle through life...].
This is a parallel to what I have been writing about here as to {overcomming}. It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages of overcomming that it has been revealed to me as to why we were born on the earth. There has also been revealed to me that there are 3 minds that we could have while we are sojourning here. All of this can cause to be in a continuim from being a a state of death to being in the state of The Life.
It has been revealed to me that The Walk while I am on this earth is one of a trial and a test from my God to be like a training for a higher commision later, even after death. It has been revealed to me that keeping the commandments are a guide to what is to be overcome, for they are of the nature as to directions concerning the carnal mind, the spiritual mind and the anointed mind, which has been revealed to me to be the 3 minds that we can have by overcomming the flesh, the world and the devil. It has been revealed to me that overcomming and keeping the commandment s are interelated and that the 7 stages of overcomming can lead to The Paradise of God and beyond.But like you say, and I agree,[...not always easy ...or fun...]
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcmncoman Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on March 18, 2008, at 12:09:50

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcmncoman, posted by Lou Pilder on March 15, 2008, at 15:02:40

Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm

What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.

 

Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-7stges-1n2 rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 14:42:31

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcmncoman Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on March 18, 2008, at 12:09:50

> Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
> http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
> They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
> http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm
>
> What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.

rayww,
You wrote,[...what are the 7 {steps}?...]
I believe that that is your question to me in regards to that I wrote that there are 7 {stages}.
These stages are different from {steps} but I think that we could use both to have an understanding of ewhat I mean by 7 stages.
It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages involved in overcomming. In your links you write about repentance and such and I think that I can tie that into the discussion someplace, for it does belong in the revelation that has been given to me.
The 7 stages involved with overcomming have been revealed to me in the book called The Revelation. In chapter 2 we have them and let us look at these.
In verse 5, it reads,[...Remember thearfore from which you have fallen;repent and do the first works...], so to repent is involved here. Going to verse 7, it reads;
[...To him that overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...
That is the first {stage}, and it does involve to repent.
Now let's look at verse 10;
[...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life...He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death...].
Here we have the second stage in overcomming which involves faithfulnes until death after one first partakes of the tree of life.
It has been revealed to me that we have a promise that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death which is death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire. If one is not hurt by the second death that are those that overcome, then could those that do not overcome be hurt by the second death? (I will answer that question from my perspective soon).
stages 3-7 comming...
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:03:37

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-7stges-1n2 rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 14:42:31

> > Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
> > http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
> > They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
> > http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm
> >
> > What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.
>
> rayww,
> You wrote,[...what are the 7 {steps}?...]
> I believe that that is your question to me in regards to that I wrote that there are 7 {stages}.
> These stages are different from {steps} but I think that we could use both to have an understanding of ewhat I mean by 7 stages.
> It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages involved in overcomming. In your links you write about repentance and such and I think that I can tie that into the discussion someplace, for it does belong in the revelation that has been given to me.
> The 7 stages involved with overcomming have been revealed to me in the book called The Revelation. In chapter 2 we have them and let us look at these.
> In verse 5, it reads,[...Remember thearfore from which you have fallen;repent and do the first works...], so to repent is involved here. Going to verse 7, it reads;
> [...To him that overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...
> That is the first {stage}, and it does involve to repent.
> Now let's look at verse 10;
> [...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life...He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death...].
> Here we have the second stage in overcomming which involves faithfulnes until death after one first partakes of the tree of life.
> It has been revealed to me that we have a promise that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death which is death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire. If one is not hurt by the second death that are those that overcome, then could those that do not overcome be hurt by the second death? (I will answer that question from my perspective soon).
> stages 3-7 comming...
> Lou

rayww,
Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:22:56

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:03:37

> > > Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
> > > http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
> > > They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
> > > http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm
> > >
> > > What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.
> >
> > rayww,
> > You wrote,[...what are the 7 {steps}?...]
> > I believe that that is your question to me in regards to that I wrote that there are 7 {stages}.
> > These stages are different from {steps} but I think that we could use both to have an understanding of ewhat I mean by 7 stages.
> > It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages involved in overcomming. In your links you write about repentance and such and I think that I can tie that into the discussion someplace, for it does belong in the revelation that has been given to me.
> > The 7 stages involved with overcomming have been revealed to me in the book called The Revelation. In chapter 2 we have them and let us look at these.
> > In verse 5, it reads,[...Remember thearfore from which you have fallen;repent and do the first works...], so to repent is involved here. Going to verse 7, it reads;
> > [...To him that overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...
> > That is the first {stage}, and it does involve to repent.
> > Now let's look at verse 10;
> > [...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life...He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death...].
> > Here we have the second stage in overcomming which involves faithfulnes until death after one first partakes of the tree of life.
> > It has been revealed to me that we have a promise that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death which is death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire. If one is not hurt by the second death that are those that overcome, then could those that do not overcome be hurt by the second death? (I will answer that question from my perspective soon).
> > stages 3-7 comming...
> > Lou
>
> rayww,
> Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
> Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
> The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
> Lou

rayww,
Now in verse 26 (stage 4) it reads;
[..And he that overcomes and keeps My works to the end to him I will give power over the nations...and I will give him the morning star...]
Now when one is in this stage, they receive power over the nations and in the preceeding verses we read about {Jezebel} which has been revealed to me to be a seducing spirit enticing God's children to commit spiritual offenses against their god which their god has said to them to turn away from (repent) to go into this stage. And in verse 28 it reads that these overcomming in this stage will receive the morning star. The morning star has been revealed to me to be the {anointed mind} which I will be writing about shortly in another thread here regarding what has been revealed to me as that there are 3 minds that man can have while on earth. One is the natural or carnal or flesh mind, the other is the spiritual mind and the other is the anointed mind that has been revaled to me to be given in the 4th stage of overcomming.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4 Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 17:09:00

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:22:56

This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.

I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

 

Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrtnmnd Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 18:54:54

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4 Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 17:09:00

> This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
>
> I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
>
> "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

Dena,
You wrote,[...ways in which these passages have been interpreted...].
It has been revealed to me that the book called The Revelation was written by John, a Jew, and that the symbols then used were so that at least Jews could understand the message of the book. Being a Jew, what has been revealed to me is from a Jewish perspective.
In what we are discussing, when I read the second chapter concerning overcomming, I was led to the book called Jeremiah, the 31st chapter, the 33erd verse where I read that he that overcomes will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And it reads,
[...says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds and write it in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people...]
The tree of life was in the midst of the garden and could have given Adam and Eve the mind of God, and have had God's law written in their hearts, but they did not eat of that tree. It has been revealed to me that the tree of life is God's law put into the minds and hearts of His people by His Spirit, which means that repenting is the first stage of overcomming and one is allowed to eat of the tree of life which then imparts God's Spirit into the miinds and hearts of the overcommer. This then is a new mind, a spiritual mind, and a new heart, a spiritual heart.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-wlknthesprit

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 19:38:46

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrtnmnd Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 18:54:54

> > This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
> >
> > I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
> >
> > "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
> >
> > "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...ways in which these passages have been interpreted...].
> It has been revealed to me that the book called The Revelation was written by John, a Jew, and that the symbols then used were so that at least Jews could understand the message of the book. Being a Jew, what has been revealed to me is from a Jewish perspective.
> In what we are discussing, when I read the second chapter concerning overcomming, I was led to the book called Jeremiah, the 31st chapter, the 33erd verse where I read that he that overcomes will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And it reads,
> [...says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds and write it in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people...]
> The tree of life was in the midst of the garden and could have given Adam and Eve the mind of God, and have had God's law written in their hearts, but they did not eat of that tree. It has been revealed to me that the tree of life is God's law put into the minds and hearts of His people by His Spirit, which means that repenting is the first stage of overcomming and one is allowed to eat of the tree of life which then imparts God's Spirit into the miinds and hearts of the overcommer. This then is a new mind, a spiritual mind, and a new heart, a spiritual heart.
> Lou

Dena,
Then at this stage in overcomming we are confronted with two minds, and they are opposed to one another. For it has been revealed to me that one cannot serve two masters.
It has been revealed to me that the carnal or natural or flesh mind wars with the spiritual mind and from here the overcomming gets into a different stage and that to be carnally minded is death in the fleash and that to be spiritualy minded is life and peace in the Spirit and if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh which are murders, sorcery, idolatry, and such and that the fruit of the Spirit is love, peace joy , longsuffering, gentleness and faith.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-wlknthesprit Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 19:49:52

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-wlknthesprit, posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 19:38:46

What else was revealed to you, Lou...?

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on March 20, 2008, at 12:12:56

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:03:37

> rayww,
> Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
> Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
> The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
> Lou
>

Lou, I doubt you could write anything about the foundation of Judaism, or the children of Israel (the 12 tribes) that would surprise, but go for it. I am interested (curious) in what you have had revealed about that.

Are you quoting the Book of Revelation because it happens to go along with what you have had revealed to you? I don't quite understand your Jewish connection to the NT. I admire you for it, as it shows you are a soul with an open (enlightened) mind. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/1
John sees Jesus and has revealed to him by Jesus this great vision while on the Isle of Patmos, and is commanded to record it. If I am to understand correctly (and I may be wrong) this is the same John who wrote the Gospel of St. John, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John in the NT. He is also the John who is still on the earth today, somewhere, working with the tribes that are lost. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/j/52

Dummelow, page 1057 says 1st John is the last recorded scripture of the NT. In point of time the very last recorded words of scripture are: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols!" http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/5

Of course, there are other opinions too. But if John can say in the first chapter of Revelation that he had this revealed to him while he was on the Isle of Patmos, then we know it happened sometime in John's past. And what he wrote in 1st, 2nd and 3rd John was kind of his last ditch effort to keep the churches out of apostasy, then his final plea to all the world before he stopped writing, "keep yourself from idols". Perhaps that would tie in with what you were wanting to say regarding other gods. I simply provide these links to enhance your study. I particularily like the "listen" feature at the top (of the scripture pages, not of the Bible Dictionary). http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/r/33
This reference states that the first three chapters of Revelation are speaking to the churches in John's day, and chapters 4-22 deals with things yet future for John, or it begins with John's time and continues to the end of the world as we know it. (the world will change, but like us, it is eternal too)

You believe in that too don't you? The Messiah will come. We are all preparing for that future event, and look forward to it together, even though we understand it a little differently. Most believe it because the foundation of all faith was the same (in Adam) but there's been confusions with the message right from the beginning.

It is important to keep an enlightened mind so that understanding can filter in.


 

Lou's reply to rayww-idlsvhrt rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 20, 2008, at 21:08:06

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on March 20, 2008, at 12:12:56

> > rayww,
> > Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
> > Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
> > The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
> > Lou
> >
>
> Lou, I doubt you could write anything about the foundation of Judaism, or the children of Israel (the 12 tribes) that would surprise, but go for it. I am interested (curious) in what you have had revealed about that.
>
> Are you quoting the Book of Revelation because it happens to go along with what you have had revealed to you? I don't quite understand your Jewish connection to the NT. I admire you for it, as it shows you are a soul with an open (enlightened) mind. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/1
> John sees Jesus and has revealed to him by Jesus this great vision while on the Isle of Patmos, and is commanded to record it. If I am to understand correctly (and I may be wrong) this is the same John who wrote the Gospel of St. John, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John in the NT. He is also the John who is still on the earth today, somewhere, working with the tribes that are lost. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/j/52
>
> Dummelow, page 1057 says 1st John is the last recorded scripture of the NT. In point of time the very last recorded words of scripture are: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols!" http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/5
>
> Of course, there are other opinions too. But if John can say in the first chapter of Revelation that he had this revealed to him while he was on the Isle of Patmos, then we know it happened sometime in John's past. And what he wrote in 1st, 2nd and 3rd John was kind of his last ditch effort to keep the churches out of apostasy, then his final plea to all the world before he stopped writing, "keep yourself from idols". Perhaps that would tie in with what you were wanting to say regarding other gods. I simply provide these links to enhance your study. I particularily like the "listen" feature at the top (of the scripture pages, not of the Bible Dictionary). http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/r/33
> This reference states that the first three chapters of Revelation are speaking to the churches in John's day, and chapters 4-22 deals with things yet future for John, or it begins with John's time and continues to the end of the world as we know it. (the world will change, but like us, it is eternal too)
>
> You believe in that too don't you? The Messiah will come. We are all preparing for that future event, and look forward to it together, even though we understand it a little differently. Most believe it because the foundation of all faith was the same (in Adam) but there's been confusions with the message right from the beginning.
>
> It is important to keep an enlightened mind so that understanding can filter in.

rayww,
There are many questions that you have proposed here and I would like to reply to each of them.
You wrote,[...keep yourself from idols...].
This discussion had someplace where it was discussed as to the idols of the heart, which could be further discussed as to your post here.
Could you take one question from you post that you would like to discuss first here?
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcom-stage 5

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 22, 2008, at 12:41:32

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4 Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 17:09:00

> This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
>
> I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
>
> "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

Dena,
Now we go to stage 5 of overcomming. We read in the book called The Revelation in chapter 3 verse 5,[...He that overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the book of life...].
It has been revealed to me that in the stages of overcomming one that reaches this stage will have a different clothing. This clothing is called the clothing of white garment and the book called the Revelation is a book of symbols , the white garment being something that happens to one that has to do with their appearance to others as a light shinning in a dark place. This has been revealed to me that this appearance is given to those that as in verse 4 here in chapter 3,[...there are a few here which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy...].
It has been revealed to me that the {white garment} is the {glory of God}, that a person's perception is of that person to be a light in a dark place. One that has overcome to this degree as that they are unspotted, is as to that their carnal mind has been conquered and put to death, which is death to the carnal mind, the death of death, a second death, so that the spiritual mind is their whole {garment}.
As I read that verse I was led to the book called Isaiah, chapter 49, verse 6 which reads;[...I will also give my sevants to be a light to others, that they will receive salvation...]and I am reminded of a Psalm, 104, verses 1 and 2, which read,[...my God, You are very great: You are clothed with honor and majesty, Who cover yourself with light as with a garment, Who strtch out the heavens like a cutain...].
And then to the book called Isaiah chapter 60 verse 1 to 3 as we read;
Arise, shine;
For your light has come!
And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
And deep darkness the people;
But the Lord will arise over you.
And kings to the brightness of your rising.
It has been revealed to me that the white garment is given to those that God is now using as a servant of God, to be a light to those around them to reveal the aspects that are good concerning the Kingdom of God to them, and that the Kingdom of God is at hand, that is within them, that they can cross over the Great Gulf and eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcom-stage 5 Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on March 22, 2008, at 18:27:54

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcom-stage 5, posted by Lou Pilder on March 22, 2008, at 12:41:32

So Lou... I'm seeing that God seems to choose or "elect" some, a small group, through whom He seems to want to bless ALL... is that what you've come to believe as well...?

I see that He chose Abram to become Abraham, and told him that "through you all nations [all people] will be blessed."

I see that many are called, but few are chosen... the Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all people... and then others were grafted in, in order for the fulness of Gentiles to make the Jews jealous and bring them back to God... and then the Jews, being the overcomers (along with the grafted-in ones) will be that blessing to all nations, bringing that Light to all, who have all BEEN reconciled to God, but are still blind to that reality... and THAT is the good news, which has unfortunately been skewed by those who cannot receive a free gift, but somehow believe (or desire) that they should earn it, which they already have.

What's confusing to me is the timeline of everything... and what part of what's in the Revelation of John is for what has already passed, what part is a metaphor for what is continually going on (spiritually), and what is what is yet to happen...

Can you speak to that Lou, without getting off track in what you're sharing here -- does that tie in at all, or would you rather come back to that (my qusetions) later?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-sgnvjnah Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on March 25, 2008, at 7:53:53

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcom-stage 5 Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 22, 2008, at 17:27:54

> So Lou... I'm seeing that God seems to choose or "elect" some, a small group, through whom He seems to want to bless ALL... is that what you've come to believe as well...?
>
> I see that He chose Abram to become Abraham, and told him that "through you all nations [all people] will be blessed."
>
> I see that many are called, but few are chosen... the Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all people... and then others were grafted in, in order for the fulness of Gentiles to make the Jews jealous and bring them back to God... and then the Jews, being the overcomers (along with the grafted-in ones) will be that blessing to all nations, bringing that Light to all, who have all BEEN reconciled to God, but are still blind to that reality... and THAT is the good news, which has unfortunately been skewed by those who cannot receive a free gift, but somehow believe (or desire) that they should earn it, which they already have.
>
> What's confusing to me is the timeline of everything... and what part of what's in the Revelation of John is for what has already passed, what part is a metaphor for what is continually going on (spiritually), and what is what is yet to happen...
>
> Can you speak to that Lou, without getting off track in what you're sharing here -- does that tie in at all, or would you rather come back to that (my qusetions) later?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...and told him...many are called...that Light...]
It has been revealed to me that this time here is to some the darkest hour of their lives and that there is a sign here to those reading this. It has been revealed to me that when this sign can be seen, that there could be a new day with new light that could lead some to The Kingdom of God, The Paradise of God, The Promised Land.
It has been revaled to me now that The Sun of Rightiousness is arising here with healing in His wings, for the sign is here, the sign that the God that i give worship and service to has revaled to me would be That Sign that would be given to those that the dawn is here, there could be a new day and that the darkness could be dispelled.
It has been revealed to me that That Sign is the Sign of Jonah,asJonah was in the belly of the Great Fish,thatwouldbe The Sign as for as Jonah was in the Heart of the Great Fish, we would be in the Heart of the Earth. The Heart of the Earth is the heart of the carnal existance, for we are earth, formed from the dust of the ground. And as ouearthly mind is in the profound state of death, the carnal mind, then it has been revaeled to me that this is the Sign of Jonah to one that is in their darkest hour, the Heart of the Earth as being trapped like Jonah and fearing hopelesness and fear.
It has been revealed to me that if one is in this state that they are in The Heart of the Earth and could think that their God has forsaken them. it has been revaled to me that in this state one is being {called} by their God to be brought out of the darkness and into a marvelous light and as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, that is the sign to us that when we are in The Heart of the Earth for three days and three nights, the sign of Jonah, to wait on the Lord.
Lou


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