Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 799425

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Re: Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 17, 2008, at 17:15:31

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 15:30:32

I was just reading that (in the version I use): "there are many rooms in my Father's household".

What else do you want to show us that was revealed to you, Lou?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-mnymnsns Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 19:03:26

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 17, 2008, at 17:15:31

> I was just reading that (in the version I use): "there are many rooms in my Father's household".
>
> What else do you want to show us that was revealed to you, Lou?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
Here is a link to a mansion that I was in. It is in Ashville, North Carolina, the Biltmore House built by the Vanderbilts in the late 1800s.
It is surrounded by the Blue Ridge Mountians and the gardens are something to see.
I have wondered if Mr. Vanderbilt was attempting to replicate the Garden of Eden or a mansion in The Father's House.
My understanding is that the Temple of Solomon that had God reside in it, being destroyed, gave our body to be the replacement Temple of God.
Lou
http://andyandfrank.com/4%20biltmore%20house.JPG

 

Lou's reply to Dena-gardens

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 20:18:16

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-mnymnsns Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 19:03:26

> > I was just reading that (in the version I use): "there are many rooms in my Father's household".
> >
> > What else do you want to show us that was revealed to you, Lou?
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
> Dena,
> Here is a link to a mansion that I was in. It is in Ashville, North Carolina, the Biltmore House built by the Vanderbilts in the late 1800s.
> It is surrounded by the Blue Ridge Mountians and the gardens are something to see.
> I have wondered if Mr. Vanderbilt was attempting to replicate the Garden of Eden or a mansion in The Father's House.
> My understanding is that the Temple of Solomon that had God reside in it, being destroyed, gave our body to be the replacement Temple of God.
> Lou
> http://andyandfrank.com/4%20biltmore%20house.JPG
>
>
Dena,
Here is a link to a photo of the gardens at the Biltmore House.
I spent many hours going through those gardens and I can still see the flowers and smell the aroma. If at any time you are near Ashville, N.C. in the spring or summer, I think that seeing the mansion and the gardens is a worthwhile experiance.
Lou
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2413274680011963314suWGOD

 

Lou's reply to Dena-gardens-B

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 20:49:16

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-gardens, posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 20:18:16

> > > I was just reading that (in the version I use): "there are many rooms in my Father's household".
> > >
> > > What else do you want to show us that was revealed to you, Lou?
> > >
> > > Shalom, Dena
> >
> > Dena,
> > Here is a link to a mansion that I was in. It is in Ashville, North Carolina, the Biltmore House built by the Vanderbilts in the late 1800s.
> > It is surrounded by the Blue Ridge Mountians and the gardens are something to see.
> > I have wondered if Mr. Vanderbilt was attempting to replicate the Garden of Eden or a mansion in The Father's House.
> > My understanding is that the Temple of Solomon that had God reside in it, being destroyed, gave our body to be the replacement Temple of God.
> > Lou
> > http://andyandfrank.com/4%20biltmore%20house.JPG
> >
> >
> Dena,
> Here is a link to a photo of the gardens at the Biltmore House.
> I spent many hours going through those gardens and I can still see the flowers and smell the aroma. If at any time you are near Ashville, N.C. in the spring or summer, I think that seeing the mansion and the gardens is a worthwhile experiance.
> Lou
> http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2413274680011963314suWGOD
>

Dena,
Here is another good link to Asheville and the gardens at the Biltmore house
Loi
http://smokyphotos.com/photo85.htm

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-gardens-B Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 17, 2008, at 21:52:30

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-gardens-B, posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2008, at 20:49:16

I've always been fascinated by the Biltmore house -- I adore Victorian architecture (& I now live in a Victorian house, circa 1900).

Those garden photos are lovely -- are they your photos from your trip? I love the combination of groomed orderliness, and rampant wild colors!

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to discover that many of our attempts to create, to beautify, to build, to plant, to sing, to draw, to express ourselves creatively, aren't just innate expressions of us, who are made in God's image, trying to recapture the innocent beauty and intimacy of the Garden...

It reminds me of the incredible allegory of the Garden in the book, "The Shack" -- have you yet read that book, Lou? It very much fits in with this conversation...

What's next in your experience...?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcm Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2008, at 9:30:11

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-gardens-B Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 17, 2008, at 21:52:30

> I've always been fascinated by the Biltmore house -- I adore Victorian architecture (& I now live in a Victorian house, circa 1900).
>
> Those garden photos are lovely -- are they your photos from your trip? I love the combination of groomed orderliness, and rampant wild colors!
>
> It wouldn't surprise me a bit to discover that many of our attempts to create, to beautify, to build, to plant, to sing, to draw, to express ourselves creatively, aren't just innate expressions of us, who are made in God's image, trying to recapture the innocent beauty and intimacy of the Garden...
>
> It reminds me of the incredible allegory of the Garden in the book, "The Shack" -- have you yet read that book, Lou? It very much fits in with this conversation...
>
> What's next in your experience...?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...recapture the...of the Garden...]
When I read the book called The Revelation, reading the 2end chapter the 7th verse;
[...To him that overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...].
As a Jew, I was led to the book called Genesis, the 2end chapter, the 9th verse;
[...and out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...]. And in the 3erd chapter from the 22end verse;
[...God drove man out of the garden and placed a guard so that Adam could not come back and eat of the tree of life. For if he did eat of that tree, he could become as a God and have God-life, which is eternal life and live forever...]
Here we have in the beginning the tree of life in the garden for the first man that did not eat of it and in the book called the Revelation, man can eat, at last, from the tree of life. The tree of life has the bread that can free one from bondage. The tree of life is available to those that overcome.
I believe that Dr. Martin Luther King jr had in mind the tree of life and that he had been in The Paradise of God. I believe that he ate of the tree of life and his message was for others to eat of that tree to be free. I believe that is what he meant when in his last words in his famous speech he cited;
[..Free at last; free at last. Thank God almighty we are free at last...].
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcm Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 19, 2008, at 20:56:48

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcm Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2008, at 9:30:11

I see that "the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations"... and that the river of life goes from the throne of God (which is in New Jerusalem), and flows out of the city...

... it echoes the river of life mentioned in Ezekiel, which brings life to everything it touches, except for the salt marshes (and salt is a preservative -- and we are salted by fire).

I see that the river of life goes past the tree of life, and that outside are all those who cannot yet come in to the City... those who resist Him.

But the gates of the City are open 24/7, and inside, the Spirit and the Bride call out, "Come".

It seems to me that they're beckoning to those outside the City... to taste and see that the Lord is good, to come to believe, to become an overcomer, and to come IN, to LIVE.

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-rivoflif Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 20, 2008, at 10:41:42

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcm Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 19, 2008, at 20:56:48

> I see that "the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations"... and that the river of life goes from the throne of God (which is in New Jerusalem), and flows out of the city...
>
> ... it echoes the river of life mentioned in Ezekiel, which brings life to everything it touches, except for the salt marshes (and salt is a preservative -- and we are salted by fire).
>
> I see that the river of life goes past the tree of life, and that outside are all those who cannot yet come in to the City... those who resist Him.
>
> But the gates of the City are open 24/7, and inside, the Spirit and the Bride call out, "Come".
>
> It seems to me that they're beckoning to those outside the City... to taste and see that the Lord is good, to come to believe, to become an overcomer, and to come IN, to LIVE.
>
> Shalom, Dena

DEna,
You wrote,[...the River of Life...Ezekial...the tree of life...those outside...].
In the book called The Revelation, in the 22 chapter we read in verse 1,
[...And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal...]
And in verse 17,
[...And let him that thirsts come and whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely...]
And in the book called Genesis, the 2end chapter from verse 9,
[...The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden...a river went out of Edan to water the garden...]
The river watered the garden and the tree of life. The tree of life was God-life, eternal that could live forever. The water in the river was needed to give the tree of life, God-life. It was a combining of the water, which has been revealed to me to be {God's Spirit}, with the tree. The tree, as it has been revealed to me, was The Word of God. The water, {Spirit}, combined with the {word},the tree, produced eternal life. For it has been revealed to me that in the beginning was the Word. And the Word was God and in Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. And in the book called Ezekial, the 47th chapter the 9th verse reads,
[...And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the rivers go, will live...]
It has been revealed to me that The River of Life is the Spirit of Life, for when I was on the shore, seeing the beast come out of the sea, the Rider said to me, "I shall be with you a little while longer and then I will go to Him that sent me. You will seek me and not find me, and where I am, you cannot come. And if you believe on The Word of God and thirst for life, out of your heart will flow rivers of living water, for the Spirit of life will be sent to you." And then He said to me, " And everyone that has that thirst and comes to the Waters of Life can drink freely and let the wicked forsake his way return to the Lord,for He will abundantly pardon.
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth the bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
So shall My word be that goes forth from my mouth.
For you shall go out with joy,
And be led out with peace;
The mountains and the hills
Shall break forth with singing before you,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-rivoflif Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 20, 2008, at 22:55:26

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-rivoflif Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 20, 2008, at 10:41:42

Lou -

What is the meaning of the symbolism of the beast rising up out of the sea?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 21, 2008, at 8:58:01

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-rivoflif Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 20, 2008, at 22:55:26

> Lou -
>
> What is the meaning of the symbolism of the beast rising up out of the sea?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...symbolism..beast...sea...].
When John penned the book called The revelation, I believe that what he penned was intended for at least Jewish people that were versed in their scriptures and so that the symbols used could be understood by them. Then they could speak the meanings of the symbols to those not versed in the scriptures that the Jews used.
The book says that what is in it is {to the 7 "churches"}. The English word, "church" means {the called out by the God that the Jews worship}. It has been revealed to me that the "7" churches then are symbolic of the {complete} group of the called out by God, 7 being the symbolic number that Jews consider to be meaning to be {complete}. The people in those called out by the God that the Jews worship groups, then have been revealed to me to be all of those people in all ages. This then has been revealed to me to mean that the book is to all those at anytime that are reading it, be it in the time period when John penned it, or anytime after that, being now or 1000000 years from now.
The book writes that anyone that reads it will be blessed. The book writes that the one that penned it, John, was in Spirit at the time of penning it. It was what was revealed to him by an angel of God. And the book writes that it is to {he that has an ear} to let him hear what {The Spirit} says to {the churches}.
My friends, it is my deep conviction that anyone that is reading this has an ear to hear and that the hearing will be a spiritual hearing. I base this on what I believe to be that the Word of God is what the God that the Jews worship use to draw all men to Him.
The Jews had a king, David. He was the king of the nation of Israel. It has been revealed to me that there is a spititual Israel. And in the book called Genesis, we read in the 28th chapter, about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and starting at verse 12, that the God of Israel tells Abraham that He will give him the land and to his seed. And then God says that his seed will spread to the west and to the north and to the east and to the south, and in his seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 21, 2008, at 10:43:54

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 21, 2008, at 8:58:01

> > Lou -
> >
> > What is the meaning of the symbolism of the beast rising up out of the sea?
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...symbolism..beast...sea...].
> When John penned the book called The revelation, I believe that what he penned was intended for at least Jewish people that were versed in their scriptures and so that the symbols used could be understood by them. Then they could speak the meanings of the symbols to those not versed in the scriptures that the Jews used.
> The book says that what is in it is {to the 7 "churches"}. The English word, "church" means {the called out by the God that the Jews worship}. It has been revealed to me that the "7" churches then are symbolic of the {complete} group of the called out by God, 7 being the symbolic number that Jews consider to be meaning to be {complete}. The people in those called out by the God that the Jews worship groups, then have been revealed to me to be all of those people in all ages. This then has been revealed to me to mean that the book is to all those at anytime that are reading it, be it in the time period when John penned it, or anytime after that, being now or 1000000 years from now.
> The book writes that anyone that reads it will be blessed. The book writes that the one that penned it, John, was in Spirit at the time of penning it. It was what was revealed to him by an angel of God. And the book writes that it is to {he that has an ear} to let him hear what {The Spirit} says to {the churches}.
> My friends, it is my deep conviction that anyone that is reading this has an ear to hear and that the hearing will be a spiritual hearing. I base this on what I believe to be that the Word of God is what the God that the Jews worship use to draw all men to Him.
> The Jews had a king, David. He was the king of the nation of Israel. It has been revealed to me that there is a spititual Israel. And in the book called Genesis, we read in the 28th chapter, about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and starting at verse 12, that the God of Israel tells Abraham that He will give him the land and to his seed. And then God says that his seed will spread to the west and to the north and to the east and to the south, and in his seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
> Lou

Dena,
You asked about the beast that came out of the sea that John penned in the book called The Revelation in chapter 13.In the 12th chapter,the 9th verse, we read,[...And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceives the {whole world}...].
The symbolism here leads me to the book called Genesis in the 3erd chapter as we read,
[...Now the serpent was more subtle than {any beast} of the field which the Lord God had made...]
Then the serpent told Eve that if she ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, that God had told that if they ate of it that they would die, that they would not die. They ate of the fruit of the tree and God confronted them and Eve said,[...The serpent deceived me, and I did eat...].
Then they were banished from the Garden and took with them the nature of man without eating of the tree of life which could have given them the nature of God.
The book called Revelation writes that the serpent has deceived not only Eve, but has deceived the {whole world}.
It has been revealed to me that the beast nature, since the first people left the Garden, is the natural nature of mankind that mankind is born with and that he that overcomes can eat of the tree of life.
It has been revealed to me that the beast nature is without spirit. It is concerned with self and like the serpent, is concerned with deceiving others to not worship God and to have others worship them by making images of themselves as I wrote concerning Nebuchadnezzar and that he made a golden image of himself, 60X6, that if people did not worship his image, he would have them killed.
It has been revealed to me that man does have a spirit, but it is like a seed and needs to be germinated. For reading in Genesis chapter 2, the 7th verse that God made man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. The breath was God's breath (spirit) so that Adam did have God's spirit in him, like a seed, but needed to eat of the tree of life to germinate it, which he did not do. The book called Ecclesiastes, which is generally accepted to be written by Solomon, writes in the 12th chapter, the 7th verse,[...Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it...].
It has been revealed to me that this nature of man without the spirit of God awakened, is like any other soul. Animals are also living souls, but they did not have God breath into them as Adam did, so lack that spirit in them. This spirit that is in man has ben revealed to me to have man have a conscience of a God that created them, though, and that man can have awarness of a creator. And it has been revealed to me that the spirit is in a struggle with the flesh and spirit and untill the spirit overcomes the flesh, one will walk in the flesh and that the works of the flesh are of the beastly nature that leads to death,and the fruit of the spirit is joy and peace that leads to life.
The beast came out of the {sea}. When I read that I was led to the book called Isaiah, the 57th chapter, from verse 20,[...But the wicked are like a troubled sea, when it can not rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt...].
Lou


 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:12:25

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 21, 2008, at 8:58:01

Lou -

This is amazing to me... I've been known as a Christian for over 30 years now... since I was 15. I've had many, many teachings about this book, about what it means (most of the teachings conflict with each other, as everyone seems to KNOW what it means, and even whole denominational divisions have occurred over it... so much for "they'll know we're Christians by our love".... sad).

So, you're saying that the way a Jew would understand this book, is that it's symbolic... it's about how to go from one who is "lost" to one who is "found"; from one who is "dead" to one who is "alive"; to be born anew.

This is startling to me, for I was taught this was a book of coming events, the "end times" when a literal "antichrist" (which I now know is not even mentioned in this book) would become a world-leader, and usher in the worship of the Beast, and everyone would have to take on the "mark of the Beast" on their head or their hand, not being able to either buy or sell without it. Then would come the tribulation, with many, many people being killed (unless they take the mark of the Beast), and the overcomers would go to heaven, to be with God. Then, a great battle -- then the Millenniel Reign (with the beast, false prophet and Satan locked up for a while). THen the bad guys get released, and some folks are deceived. And then, the false prophet, the beast, and all those who worshipped the beast, would be thrown into the lake of fire, to burn endlessly, forever and ever with no chance of escape. And those who overcame would live in the New Jerusalem (new heaven and new earth) forever and ever.

That, with a few variations, was what I was taught, as a "Christian", by those who said they knew these things.

And then, God took me out of the institutional church, out of Christianity (which I now believe is a manmade system), and I realized that I was part of His Ekklesia -- the called-out ones. Called out of all things man-made, including that which "calls itself church". I learned that Church is a people to be, not a place to go, or a thing to join. And I learned that I'd been duped about all manner of things... about the system of Christianity, about what the gospel is, about the clergy-laity division, about how women being second-class citizens, and I came to believe that God's plan has always been to reconcile all things, including all people, to Himself. IOW, that He saves everyone. That the power of the atonement extends to ALL, and that all will, one way or another, no matter what it takes, no matter how many firey ordeals, or how long the age of correction/pruning, everyone will come to the end of themselves, having been salted by fire, and SEE Him for who He is, and CHOOSE Him (& there is an order, starting with firstfruits, and continuing) -- thus, every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that He is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. For He is the Savior of ALL, especially those who believe.

So, Lou, are you now telling me, after all this time of sharing your "experience", that the book known as "The Revelation" is not about future events, but about the wooing, delivering, transforming, refining process of what God does within each one's life...?


Wow.

Ok, I have to go back in and read it (I use a more literal translation than what's commonly read). I want to delve into what HE says to each of the 7 assemblies (as my translation puts it).

I want to see what I get out of it, with this particular enlightening... and I'm asking the Holy Spirit to show me what He wants me to see...

Shalom, Dena

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


> Dena,
> You wrote,[...symbolism..beast...sea...].
> When John penned the book called The revelation, I believe that what he penned was intended for at least Jewish people that were versed in their scriptures and so that the symbols used could be understood by them. Then they could speak the meanings of the symbols to those not versed in the scriptures that the Jews used.
> The book says that what is in it is {to the 7 "churches"}. The English word, "church" means {the called out by the God that the Jews worship}. It has been revealed to me that the "7" churches then are symbolic of the {complete} group of the called out by God, 7 being the symbolic number that Jews consider to be meaning to be {complete}. The people in those called out by the God that the Jews worship groups, then have been revealed to me to be all of those people in all ages. This then has been revealed to me to mean that the book is to all those at anytime that are reading it, be it in the time period when John penned it, or anytime after that, being now or 1000000 years from now.
> The book writes that anyone that reads it will be blessed. The book writes that the one that penned it, John, was in Spirit at the time of penning it. It was what was revealed to him by an angel of God. And the book writes that it is to {he that has an ear} to let him hear what {The Spirit} says to {the churches}.
> My friends, it is my deep conviction that anyone that is reading this has an ear to hear and that the hearing will be a spiritual hearing. I base this on what I believe to be that the Word of God is what the God that the Jews worship use to draw all men to Him.
> The Jews had a king, David. He was the king of the nation of Israel. It has been revealed to me that there is a spititual Israel. And in the book called Genesis, we read in the 28th chapter, about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and starting at verse 12, that the God of Israel tells Abraham that He will give him the land and to his seed. And then God says that his seed will spread to the west and to the north and to the east and to the south, and in his seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
> Lou
>
>

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:14:35

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B, posted by Lou Pilder on February 21, 2008, at 10:43:54

Wow, so the beast is the old nature -- that which rules us until we are redeemed... and that which we continue to battle to overcome 'til the first death.

Wow, it's "just" the old flesh vs. spirit struggle... wow!

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:42:44

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B, posted by Lou Pilder on February 21, 2008, at 10:43:54

Ok, Lou (wondering, is it just you and me here, or is anyone else reading along?).

I just did a search of the beginning of Revelation, to see what was said by (I call Him Jesus, and I know you don't... do you refer to Him as Y'Shua, or just The Rider?). I'll call Him the Annointed One (interesting that AO also stands for Alpha and Omega!).

Lou - first, is there any significance to how all the assemblies are located in Asia (which is now Turkey)?

1. Ephesos. The AO affirms them for their hard work, endurance, how they've exposed false envoys, and have not grown weary. But, He chastises them for letting go of the Agape Feasts, and calls them to repent. He commends them for hating the Nicolaitians, even as He does (note: I've come to believe that Nicolaitians are those who promote the practice of the clergy/laity divide... "over the laity").

He tells them "to the one who is victorious they shal eat from the Tree of Life."


2. Smyrna (a wealthy port city). They are oppressed and financially wealthy. Some who claim to be Jews, but who are really a "synagogue of Adversary" will torment them for 10 days; but they are to be faithful to the death, and will receive a winner's crown.

He tells them that the one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death (Lou, is that a reference to the lake of fire?)


3. Pergamon (a center of administration). Adversary's throne is among them; but they did not renounce faith during the martyrdom of Antipas. Some there worship Balaam; some follow the teachings of the Nicolaitians. They're told to repent.

He tells them that the victorious will receive hidden manna and a white stone with a new name.


4. Thyatira (a crossroads of commercial routes, and a fertile valley). They demonstrate love, faith, mnistry, enurance - they are doing more than they did at first. But, they tolerate Jezebel (symbolizing idoloty and adultery). He will "strike her offspring dead" (Lou, what does her "offspring" represent?). He searches the hearts and minds, and will repay each one for their deeds (Judgement Day?). Those who see truth hold on.

He tells them that those who conquer and do His work will have authority over all the nations, the same authority that His Father gave Him -- they will also receive the morning star. (My take: is this referring to the Millenniel Reign? With those who receive age-abiding life reigning over those who undergo age-abiding correction? And, what is the morning star?)


5. Sardis (gold refineries, and purple dye). They have a reputation of being alive, and yet are really dead. HE tells them to get back to their foundation - what remains is close to death. In God's sight, their actions are incomplete. Hold fast, and repent. A few in Sardis are worthy, and wearing white.

He tells them that the one who conquers will wear white and not be blotted out of the Book of Life.


6. Philadelphia (on a trade route). There is an open door in front of them, which will never be shut. They have small power; they hold firmly to the Word, and have not denied His Name. The false followers will be prostrate before them, knowing that God has loved them. They wil be spared the season of tribulation, and the ordeal (Lou, would this be referencing the age-abiding correction of the Millennium, and later the lake of fire?).

He tells them that the victorious will be a pillar in the temple of God, and will have a new name.


7. Laodicea (a banking center) They are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and will be vomitted out of His mouth. They claim, "I am rich and need nothing", but He says they are pitied, wretched, poor, naked and blind. He tells them to buy refined gold (which I've learned is the only thing of value on the planet that does not decay or corrupt), white clothing to cover their nakedness, and eye salve, so they can see.

He says (& this touches me deeply!), "I indeed rebuke and educate those I love. Be quick to change your minds. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and we will eat together."

He tells them that the one who has the victory, He will give the right to sit with Him on His throne.

That's my quick study of what the Annointed One says to the 7 assemblies... which you've said represent all of us, for all time.

Lou -- are there 7 categories of people, or do we all tend to go through 7 stages...?

I'd like to hear anything you have to say about all of this...my insights, my questions, etc. If I need something "tweaked", or if I'm way off, please tell me how you see this.

I'm finding this fascinating!

Shalom, Dena


"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

 

Lou's reply to Dena-rsist Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2008, at 9:59:54

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:12:25

> Lou -
>
> This is amazing to me... I've been known as a Christian for over 30 years now... since I was 15. I've had many, many teachings about this book, about what it means (most of the teachings conflict with each other, as everyone seems to KNOW what it means, and even whole denominational divisions have occurred over it... so much for "they'll know we're Christians by our love".... sad).
>
> So, you're saying that the way a Jew would understand this book, is that it's symbolic... it's about how to go from one who is "lost" to one who is "found"; from one who is "dead" to one who is "alive"; to be born anew.
>
> This is startling to me, for I was taught this was a book of coming events, the "end times" when a literal "antichrist" (which I now know is not even mentioned in this book) would become a world-leader, and usher in the worship of the Beast, and everyone would have to take on the "mark of the Beast" on their head or their hand, not being able to either buy or sell without it. Then would come the tribulation, with many, many people being killed (unless they take the mark of the Beast), and the overcomers would go to heaven, to be with God. Then, a great battle -- then the Millenniel Reign (with the beast, false prophet and Satan locked up for a while). THen the bad guys get released, and some folks are deceived. And then, the false prophet, the beast, and all those who worshipped the beast, would be thrown into the lake of fire, to burn endlessly, forever and ever with no chance of escape. And those who overcame would live in the New Jerusalem (new heaven and new earth) forever and ever.
>
> That, with a few variations, was what I was taught, as a "Christian", by those who said they knew these things.
>
> And then, God took me out of the institutional church, out of Christianity (which I now believe is a manmade system), and I realized that I was part of His Ekklesia -- the called-out ones. Called out of all things man-made, including that which "calls itself church". I learned that Church is a people to be, not a place to go, or a thing to join. And I learned that I'd been duped about all manner of things... about the system of Christianity, about what the gospel is, about the clergy-laity division, about how women being second-class citizens, and I came to believe that God's plan has always been to reconcile all things, including all people, to Himself. IOW, that He saves everyone. That the power of the atonement extends to ALL, and that all will, one way or another, no matter what it takes, no matter how many firey ordeals, or how long the age of correction/pruning, everyone will come to the end of themselves, having been salted by fire, and SEE Him for who He is, and CHOOSE Him (& there is an order, starting with firstfruits, and continuing) -- thus, every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that He is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. For He is the Savior of ALL, especially those who believe.
>
> So, Lou, are you now telling me, after all this time of sharing your "experience", that the book known as "The Revelation" is not about future events, but about the wooing, delivering, transforming, refining process of what God does within each one's life...?
>
>
> Wow.
>
> Ok, I have to go back in and read it (I use a more literal translation than what's commonly read). I want to delve into what HE says to each of the 7 assemblies (as my translation puts it).
>
> I want to see what I get out of it, with this particular enlightening... and I'm asking the Holy Spirit to show me what He wants me to see...
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> > Dena,
> > You wrote,[...symbolism..beast...sea...].
> > When John penned the book called The revelation, I believe that what he penned was intended for at least Jewish people that were versed in their scriptures and so that the symbols used could be understood by them. Then they could speak the meanings of the symbols to those not versed in the scriptures that the Jews used.
> > The book says that what is in it is {to the 7 "churches"}. The English word, "church" means {the called out by the God that the Jews worship}. It has been revealed to me that the "7" churches then are symbolic of the {complete} group of the called out by God, 7 being the symbolic number that Jews consider to be meaning to be {complete}. The people in those called out by the God that the Jews worship groups, then have been revealed to me to be all of those people in all ages. This then has been revealed to me to mean that the book is to all those at anytime that are reading it, be it in the time period when John penned it, or anytime after that, being now or 1000000 years from now.
> > The book writes that anyone that reads it will be blessed. The book writes that the one that penned it, John, was in Spirit at the time of penning it. It was what was revealed to him by an angel of God. And the book writes that it is to {he that has an ear} to let him hear what {The Spirit} says to {the churches}.
> > My friends, it is my deep conviction that anyone that is reading this has an ear to hear and that the hearing will be a spiritual hearing. I base this on what I believe to be that the Word of God is what the God that the Jews worship use to draw all men to Him.
> > The Jews had a king, David. He was the king of the nation of Israel. It has been revealed to me that there is a spititual Israel. And in the book called Genesis, we read in the 28th chapter, about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and starting at verse 12, that the God of Israel tells Abraham that He will give him the land and to his seed. And then God says that his seed will spread to the west and to the north and to the east and to the south, and in his seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
> > Lou
Dena,
You wrote,[...it is symbolic...lost to found...dead to alive...born anew...mark of the beast on their head..hand...the Lake of Fire...].
The book is a book of symbols and the book states that. Some of the symbols are defined in the book and others are those that I think a Jew that was versed in their scriptures could understand.
The symbols in the first book of the scriptures that the Jews use are related to the symbols in the book called The Revelation. The first book called Genesis, tells of man's creation and also other created beings. One is the serpent that appears in the book called The Revelation. After Eve said that the serpent deceived her, we go on in that chapter, 3, to read that in verse 14 God says to the serpent that [...dust shall you eat all the days of your life...].
Now the serpent is a symbol, for serpents can not talk. And Eve did not have a conversation with a snake, for the scene is symbolic for a reason. But that God said to the serpent that he would eat dust all the days of his life from then on is also symbolic because snakes could not survive on dust only. You see, the dust is also a symbol. Fot in the 19th verse of this book we read as God is talking to Adam,[...you shall eat bread, untill you return to the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are and into dust shall you return...].
Now the serpent will eat {dust}. Man is {dust}. The serpent will substain himself then on man. It has been revealed to me that he will mainly seek the mind of men to live on.
And Adam will eat bread. Bread is a symbol which I will explain soon. But the scene now is that the serpent is seeking to live by eating {dust}. It has been revealed to me that this now is something that man will need to {overcome}. For if the serpent is seeking to enter man's mind to survive {by deceiving} as the serpent deceived Eve, then man has an enemy in his mind and the book called The Revelation says that the serpent has deceived the whole world. It has been revealed to me that the book called The Revelation shows in symbols how the serpent has controlled the minds of the whole world and how one can Overcome the serpent, which is the devil, Satan. It has been revealed to me as Adam and Eve were in The Paradise of God and were deceived by the serpent in the beginning, and ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, and were kept from eating of the Tree of Life, so shall he that overcomes then eat of the Tree of Life, which is in The Paradise of God.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-7churches Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2008, at 17:41:31

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:42:44

> Ok, Lou (wondering, is it just you and me here, or is anyone else reading along?).
>
> I just did a search of the beginning of Revelation, to see what was said by (I call Him Jesus, and I know you don't... do you refer to Him as Y'Shua, or just The Rider?). I'll call Him the Annointed One (interesting that AO also stands for Alpha and Omega!).
>
> Lou - first, is there any significance to how all the assemblies are located in Asia (which is now Turkey)?
>
> 1. Ephesos. The AO affirms them for their hard work, endurance, how they've exposed false envoys, and have not grown weary. But, He chastises them for letting go of the Agape Feasts, and calls them to repent. He commends them for hating the Nicolaitians, even as He does (note: I've come to believe that Nicolaitians are those who promote the practice of the clergy/laity divide... "over the laity").
>
> He tells them "to the one who is victorious they shal eat from the Tree of Life."
>
>
> 2. Smyrna (a wealthy port city). They are oppressed and financially wealthy. Some who claim to be Jews, but who are really a "synagogue of Adversary" will torment them for 10 days; but they are to be faithful to the death, and will receive a winner's crown.
>
> He tells them that the one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death (Lou, is that a reference to the lake of fire?)
>
>
> 3. Pergamon (a center of administration). Adversary's throne is among them; but they did not renounce faith during the martyrdom of Antipas. Some there worship Balaam; some follow the teachings of the Nicolaitians. They're told to repent.
>
> He tells them that the victorious will receive hidden manna and a white stone with a new name.
>
>
> 4. Thyatira (a crossroads of commercial routes, and a fertile valley). They demonstrate love, faith, mnistry, enurance - they are doing more than they did at first. But, they tolerate Jezebel (symbolizing idoloty and adultery). He will "strike her offspring dead" (Lou, what does her "offspring" represent?). He searches the hearts and minds, and will repay each one for their deeds (Judgement Day?). Those who see truth hold on.
>
> He tells them that those who conquer and do His work will have authority over all the nations, the same authority that His Father gave Him -- they will also receive the morning star. (My take: is this referring to the Millenniel Reign? With those who receive age-abiding life reigning over those who undergo age-abiding correction? And, what is the morning star?)
>
>
> 5. Sardis (gold refineries, and purple dye). They have a reputation of being alive, and yet are really dead. HE tells them to get back to their foundation - what remains is close to death. In God's sight, their actions are incomplete. Hold fast, and repent. A few in Sardis are worthy, and wearing white.
>
> He tells them that the one who conquers will wear white and not be blotted out of the Book of Life.
>
>
> 6. Philadelphia (on a trade route). There is an open door in front of them, which will never be shut. They have small power; they hold firmly to the Word, and have not denied His Name. The false followers will be prostrate before them, knowing that God has loved them. They wil be spared the season of tribulation, and the ordeal (Lou, would this be referencing the age-abiding correction of the Millennium, and later the lake of fire?).
>
> He tells them that the victorious will be a pillar in the temple of God, and will have a new name.
>
>
> 7. Laodicea (a banking center) They are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and will be vomitted out of His mouth. They claim, "I am rich and need nothing", but He says they are pitied, wretched, poor, naked and blind. He tells them to buy refined gold (which I've learned is the only thing of value on the planet that does not decay or corrupt), white clothing to cover their nakedness, and eye salve, so they can see.
>
> He says (& this touches me deeply!), "I indeed rebuke and educate those I love. Be quick to change your minds. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and we will eat together."
>
> He tells them that the one who has the victory, He will give the right to sit with Him on His throne.
>
>
>
>
>
> That's my quick study of what the Annointed One says to the 7 assemblies... which you've said represent all of us, for all time.
>
> Lou -- are there 7 categories of people, or do we all tend to go through 7 stages...?
>
> I'd like to hear anything you have to say about all of this...my insights, my questions, etc. If I need something "tweaked", or if I'm way off, please tell me how you see this.
>
> I'm finding this fascinating!
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

Dena,
YOu wrote about the 7 churches in Asia. What has been revealed to me is that the 7 churches are a symbol of the complete people that are at any time called out by God.
Let us reason together. If one church can eat of the tree of life if they overcome and another can eat of the hidden manna, does that mean that the one that could eat of the tree of life could not eat of the hidden manna?
And does it not say that this is the message to the churCHES? All the churches?
And could there not have been congregations in places other then Aisa, such as in the Judean region? Or Rome?
And where are those cities now? In ruins? If so, and if the book is only to those cities, then is the book to the Collossians or the book to the Romans only to those cities?
It has been revealed to me that if one at anytime reads the book they will receive a blessing and it has been revealed to me that the 7 churches are still here for they are representative of all peoples today, yesterday and tomorrow.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-rsist Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 22, 2008, at 18:36:27

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-rsist Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2008, at 9:59:54

I'd never considered those things put together before, Lou. The serpent I knew was symbolic of Satan ... but the aspect of dust is a new revelation to me. And yet, I've definitely come to believe that he seeks to destroy through deception... particularly for those who are redeemed, all he can do to them is to deceive... and once we believe his lies, and that lie becomes our "truth", we will be controlled by that lie, until our minds are renewed by Truth.

I've come to believe that that mind-renewal process occurs one lie at a time, as each one is revealed, and then replaced with Truth.

I've also come to believe that Truth is not a concept, but a Person... the One who said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Looking forward to more...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-7churches Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 22, 2008, at 18:44:28

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-7churches Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2008, at 17:41:31

So, Lou, are the 7 churches in Revelation symbolic of all the called-out ones, in the sense that we could each find ourselves in any of the 7 categories?

And not that there are 7 'stages' that the called-out ones tend to go through?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-yahasgdsed? Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2008, at 8:21:40

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-rsist Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 22, 2008, at 18:36:27

> I'd never considered those things put together before, Lou. The serpent I knew was symbolic of Satan ... but the aspect of dust is a new revelation to me. And yet, I've definitely come to believe that he seeks to destroy through deception... particularly for those who are redeemed, all he can do to them is to deceive... and once we believe his lies, and that lie becomes our "truth", we will be controlled by that lie, until our minds are renewed by Truth.
>
> I've come to believe that that mind-renewal process occurs one lie at a time, as each one is revealed, and then replaced with Truth.
>
> I've also come to believe that Truth is not a concept, but a Person... the One who said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
>
> Looking forward to more...
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...through deception...controlled by...renewed by...each one is revealed...replaced with...the life...].
The book called The Revelation brings in the symbols of the devil as a serpent. A Jew versed in their scriptures could be led to the book called Genesis and in the 3erd chapter, and I like the King James here, we read starting in verse 1, [...Now the serpent was more subtle than any {beast} of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?...]
And in verse 2,[...And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden...]
And in verse 3,[...But the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die...]
And in verse 4,[...And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die...]
It has been revealed to me that the serpent, the devil, Satan, uses deceit to cause death. For Adam and Eve died. It has been revealed to me that the serpent is a murderer, even from the beginning, by planting lies into the minds of men. It has been revealed to me that in the garden, we see the first lie when the serpent said to Eve,{..You shall not surely die...]. And in the garden the serpent said to Eve, [...Yea hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?...]. It has been revealed to me that the serpent also uses doubt about what God says in the minds of men. "Yea hath God said?"
In the book called The Revelation we read that those that overcome could eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the Paradise of God. It has been revealed that in the beginning was the word of God. And that the word was with God. And the Word was God. It has been revealed to me that the tree of life that Adam and Eve were not allowed to partake of was The Word of God, with God in the beginning and those that eat of that tree could have the {Life} of God..
Yea hath God said? It has been revealed to me that Adam and Eve left the garden being with an illness that would lead to death, for they did not eat of the tree of life and could die. And as I stood on the sand seeing, the beast come out of the sea, I saw death. Then the Rider said to me, "Fear not, for to you that fear My name, The Sun of Rightiousness shall arise with healing in His wings."
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-mrngstr Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 24, 2008, at 14:04:38

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:42:44

> Ok, Lou (wondering, is it just you and me here, or is anyone else reading along?).
>
> I just did a search of the beginning of Revelation, to see what was said by (I call Him Jesus, and I know you don't... do you refer to Him as Y'Shua, or just The Rider?). I'll call Him the Annointed One (interesting that AO also stands for Alpha and Omega!).
>
> Lou - first, is there any significance to how all the assemblies are located in Asia (which is now Turkey)?
>
> 1. Ephesos. The AO affirms them for their hard work, endurance, how they've exposed false envoys, and have not grown weary. But, He chastises them for letting go of the Agape Feasts, and calls them to repent. He commends them for hating the Nicolaitians, even as He does (note: I've come to believe that Nicolaitians are those who promote the practice of the clergy/laity divide... "over the laity").
>
> He tells them "to the one who is victorious they shal eat from the Tree of Life."
>
>
> 2. Smyrna (a wealthy port city). They are oppressed and financially wealthy. Some who claim to be Jews, but who are really a "synagogue of Adversary" will torment them for 10 days; but they are to be faithful to the death, and will receive a winner's crown.
>
> He tells them that the one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death (Lou, is that a reference to the lake of fire?)
>
>
> 3. Pergamon (a center of administration). Adversary's throne is among them; but they did not renounce faith during the martyrdom of Antipas. Some there worship Balaam; some follow the teachings of the Nicolaitians. They're told to repent.
>
> He tells them that the victorious will receive hidden manna and a white stone with a new name.
>
>
> 4. Thyatira (a crossroads of commercial routes, and a fertile valley). They demonstrate love, faith, mnistry, enurance - they are doing more than they did at first. But, they tolerate Jezebel (symbolizing idoloty and adultery). He will "strike her offspring dead" (Lou, what does her "offspring" represent?). He searches the hearts and minds, and will repay each one for their deeds (Judgement Day?). Those who see truth hold on.
>
> He tells them that those who conquer and do His work will have authority over all the nations, the same authority that His Father gave Him -- they will also receive the morning star. (My take: is this referring to the Millenniel Reign? With those who receive age-abiding life reigning over those who undergo age-abiding correction? And, what is the morning star?)
>
>
> 5. Sardis (gold refineries, and purple dye). They have a reputation of being alive, and yet are really dead. HE tells them to get back to their foundation - what remains is close to death. In God's sight, their actions are incomplete. Hold fast, and repent. A few in Sardis are worthy, and wearing white.
>
> He tells them that the one who conquers will wear white and not be blotted out of the Book of Life.
>
>
> 6. Philadelphia (on a trade route). There is an open door in front of them, which will never be shut. They have small power; they hold firmly to the Word, and have not denied His Name. The false followers will be prostrate before them, knowing that God has loved them. They wil be spared the season of tribulation, and the ordeal (Lou, would this be referencing the age-abiding correction of the Millennium, and later the lake of fire?).
>
> He tells them that the victorious will be a pillar in the temple of God, and will have a new name.
>
>
> 7. Laodicea (a banking center) They are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and will be vomitted out of His mouth. They claim, "I am rich and need nothing", but He says they are pitied, wretched, poor, naked and blind. He tells them to buy refined gold (which I've learned is the only thing of value on the planet that does not decay or corrupt), white clothing to cover their nakedness, and eye salve, so they can see.
>
> He says (& this touches me deeply!), "I indeed rebuke and educate those I love. Be quick to change your minds. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and we will eat together."
>
> He tells them that the one who has the victory, He will give the right to sit with Him on His throne.
>
>
>
>
>
> That's my quick study of what the Annointed One says to the 7 assemblies... which you've said represent all of us, for all time.
>
> Lou -- are there 7 categories of people, or do we all tend to go through 7 stages...?
>
> I'd like to hear anything you have to say about all of this...my insights, my questions, etc. If I need something "tweaked", or if I'm way off, please tell me how you see this.
>
> I'm finding this fascinating!
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

Dena,
You wrote,[...and what is the Morning Star?...]
The book called The Revelation writes in verses 26 and on,[...he that overcomes...I will give him the morning star...].
The Morning Star. The Morning Star can be seen before the dawn. The Morning Star is a signal that the Day is near. The Morning Star announces to those that see it that a New Day is comming. And that The Darkness is going to be over. The New Day is At Hand, there is Hope and purpose in the hearts of those that receive the Morning Star. When one sees the Morning Star, the Sun of Rightiousness in comming soon, for the Morning Star is seen right before the dawn of a new day when The Sun of Rightiousness floods the earth with light. That Light is in the hearts of those that receive the Morning Star. That Light is The Glory of God in one's heart when the long night is over. I have seen the Morning Star. My eyes have seen the comming of the glory of the Lord. And when I was on the sand and saw the beast come out of the sea, the beast was the Darkness of the mind, the carnal mind, death. And then the Rider said to me, "I am the Light of the World; he that follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the Light of Life."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-mrngstr Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 24, 2008, at 14:59:53

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-mrngstr Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 24, 2008, at 14:04:38

That makes sense to my mind and my heart, Lou.

Yes, I've both seen the Morning Star in others, and have experienced Him in myself.

What else do you have to share, Lou?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-vic Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 24, 2008, at 21:10:23

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-beastoutvthesea-B Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 21, 2008, at 22:42:44

> Ok, Lou (wondering, is it just you and me here, or is anyone else reading along?).
>
> I just did a search of the beginning of Revelation, to see what was said by (I call Him Jesus, and I know you don't... do you refer to Him as Y'Shua, or just The Rider?). I'll call Him the Annointed One (interesting that AO also stands for Alpha and Omega!).
>
> Lou - first, is there any significance to how all the assemblies are located in Asia (which is now Turkey)?
>
> 1. Ephesos. The AO affirms them for their hard work, endurance, how they've exposed false envoys, and have not grown weary. But, He chastises them for letting go of the Agape Feasts, and calls them to repent. He commends them for hating the Nicolaitians, even as He does (note: I've come to believe that Nicolaitians are those who promote the practice of the clergy/laity divide... "over the laity").
>
> He tells them "to the one who is victorious they shal eat from the Tree of Life."
>
>
> 2. Smyrna (a wealthy port city). They are oppressed and financially wealthy. Some who claim to be Jews, but who are really a "synagogue of Adversary" will torment them for 10 days; but they are to be faithful to the death, and will receive a winner's crown.
>
> He tells them that the one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death (Lou, is that a reference to the lake of fire?)
>
>
> 3. Pergamon (a center of administration). Adversary's throne is among them; but they did not renounce faith during the martyrdom of Antipas. Some there worship Balaam; some follow the teachings of the Nicolaitians. They're told to repent.
>
> He tells them that the victorious will receive hidden manna and a white stone with a new name.
>
>
> 4. Thyatira (a crossroads of commercial routes, and a fertile valley). They demonstrate love, faith, mnistry, enurance - they are doing more than they did at first. But, they tolerate Jezebel (symbolizing idoloty and adultery). He will "strike her offspring dead" (Lou, what does her "offspring" represent?). He searches the hearts and minds, and will repay each one for their deeds (Judgement Day?). Those who see truth hold on.
>
> He tells them that those who conquer and do His work will have authority over all the nations, the same authority that His Father gave Him -- they will also receive the morning star. (My take: is this referring to the Millenniel Reign? With those who receive age-abiding life reigning over those who undergo age-abiding correction? And, what is the morning star?)
>
>
> 5. Sardis (gold refineries, and purple dye). They have a reputation of being alive, and yet are really dead. HE tells them to get back to their foundation - what remains is close to death. In God's sight, their actions are incomplete. Hold fast, and repent. A few in Sardis are worthy, and wearing white.
>
> He tells them that the one who conquers will wear white and not be blotted out of the Book of Life.
>
>
> 6. Philadelphia (on a trade route). There is an open door in front of them, which will never be shut. They have small power; they hold firmly to the Word, and have not denied His Name. The false followers will be prostrate before them, knowing that God has loved them. They wil be spared the season of tribulation, and the ordeal (Lou, would this be referencing the age-abiding correction of the Millennium, and later the lake of fire?).
>
> He tells them that the victorious will be a pillar in the temple of God, and will have a new name.
>
>
> 7. Laodicea (a banking center) They are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and will be vomitted out of His mouth. They claim, "I am rich and need nothing", but He says they are pitied, wretched, poor, naked and blind. He tells them to buy refined gold (which I've learned is the only thing of value on the planet that does not decay or corrupt), white clothing to cover their nakedness, and eye salve, so they can see.
>
> He says (& this touches me deeply!), "I indeed rebuke and educate those I love. Be quick to change your minds. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and we will eat together."
>
> He tells them that the one who has the victory, He will give the right to sit with Him on His throne.
>
>
>
>
>
> That's my quick study of what the Annointed One says to the 7 assemblies... which you've said represent all of us, for all time.
>
> Lou -- are there 7 categories of people, or do we all tend to go through 7 stages...?
>
> I'd like to hear anything you have to say about all of this...my insights, my questions, etc. If I need something "tweaked", or if I'm way off, please tell me how you see this.
>
> I'm finding this fascinating!
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

Dena,
You wrote,[..{he that overcomes will not be hurt by the second death}...is this a reference to the Lake of Fire?...].
In the book called The Revelation, it reads in chapter 2, verse 11,[...He that overcomes will not be hurt of the second death...].
As a Jew, when I read this , I was led to the book called Hosea, the 13th chapter, the 14th verse that reads,[...I will ransom them from the power of hell. I will redeem them from death...].
To those that overcome, the book called Revelation writes that they will not be hurt by the second death. (I will write here later what has been revealed to me as to what the Lake of Fire is and what the second death is.) But as of now, those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. In a previous post I wrote about the three men in the fiery furnace that were not hurt by the flames. The book called Revelation writes about men being cast into the Lake of Fire. It has been revealed to me that there will be men that will be cast into the Lake of Fire, but that those that overcome, they will not be hurt by it, for death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. It has been revealed to me that the second death is death and hell being cast into the Lake of fire, and the last enemy is death. There will be no more death. Since there will be no more death, then there will be no more carnal minds, for to be carnally minded is death.
Now there are words that people use for centuries that have meanings that may not be clear. One is {hell}. That is the word used in the KJV for English as to represent {Hades} and two other words in the Greek. Hades, is a Greek word for the Hebrew word for sheol or the grave. The ancient Jews used sheol as a word that was different from another Hebrew word for {just the grave}. So sheol could mean more than just the grave, perhaps a form of afterlife existance. But in the Septuagint, sheol is trnalated into Greek as {Hades}. And then someone translated Hades to the English as {hell}.
It has been revealed to me that Hades as the greek equivalent for sheol could be a proper translation but going from Hades in the Greek to Hell in the English is different. Hades in the Greek lore meant the realm of the dead. This may be different from the Hebrew concept of sheol.
But the statement in the book called The Revelation, it reads that death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. Hades being the realm of the dead so it has been revealed to me that the second death is the death of death.
As I stood on the sand next to the sea, the Rider said to me, "The Lord God will swallow up death in victory; and will wipe away tears from off all faces; for O death where is your sting? O grave where is your victory?"
Lou


 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-vic Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 24, 2008, at 23:58:13

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-vic Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 24, 2008, at 21:10:23

Yes, Lou... that's been revealed to me as well, and it's shocking, but I now believe that the "hell" of modern Christianity is a fabrication, based on a combination of twisted Scripture, and the Greek mythological afterlife. Of course, Dante, in his infamous "Inferno", added "fuel to the fire", so to speak.

When the Ekklesia was overrun by the State/Church (unholy) alliance during the realm of Constantine, all manner of people became part of Christendom overnight... and they merged pagan teachings and practices with those of the Ekklesia -- special "temple" buildings, special "clergy" class, special days to worship, special rituals to perform. It was no longer seen as a family of God, but as a humann-run hierarchy... it went from organic to organized. And, the people had to be kept in line... what better way to do so than to borrow from pagan teachings about hell-fire -- to threaten the people, using fear to motivate them into obedience. What a terrible way to enter a relationship with the God who loved them enough to die for them.

What sort of God would teach us to love our enemies (& who said Himself, "forgive them, for they know not what they are doing"), all the while intending to torture His own enemies for all eternity...?

How could I ever love or trust a God who supposedly created some people just so He COULD torment them forever...?

And how could I trust a God who wasn't powerful enough to bring people to a place where they would see the truth about Him, and have the option to choose Him?

I've come to believe that God is both all-powerful, and all-loving, and so I believe He will save everyone eventually...

And this concept would've shocked and perhaps threatened me just a couple of years ago...!

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-LkvFir Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2008, at 20:50:19

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-vic Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 24, 2008, at 23:58:13

> Yes, Lou... that's been revealed to me as well, and it's shocking, but I now believe that the "hell" of modern Christianity is a fabrication, based on a combination of twisted Scripture, and the Greek mythological afterlife. Of course, Dante, in his infamous "Inferno", added "fuel to the fire", so to speak.
>
> When the Ekklesia was overrun by the State/Church (unholy) alliance during the realm of Constantine, all manner of people became part of Christendom overnight... and they merged pagan teachings and practices with those of the Ekklesia -- special "temple" buildings, special "clergy" class, special days to worship, special rituals to perform. It was no longer seen as a family of God, but as a humann-run hierarchy... it went from organic to organized. And, the people had to be kept in line... what better way to do so than to borrow from pagan teachings about hell-fire -- to threaten the people, using fear to motivate them into obedience. What a terrible way to enter a relationship with the God who loved them enough to die for them.
>
> What sort of God would teach us to love our enemies (& who said Himself, "forgive them, for they know not what they are doing"), all the while intending to torture His own enemies for all eternity...?
>
> How could I ever love or trust a God who supposedly created some people just so He COULD torment them forever...?
>
> And how could I trust a God who wasn't powerful enough to bring people to a place where they would see the truth about Him, and have the option to choose Him?
>
> I've come to believe that God is both all-powerful, and all-loving, and so I believe He will save everyone eventually...
>
> And this concept would've shocked and perhaps threatened me just a couple of years ago...!
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...the "hell" of modern Christianity...].
The word {hell} likely came from a European Godesss outside of the biblical revelation, named Helan. I do not know much more concerning that chioce made in 1611 for Hades being translated to "Hell" by the King James group of translators. I do not think that the translators were Jewish.
Another word that they translated as {hell} was gehenna. Gehenna in the Greek was a translation from the Hebrew of a place near Jerusalam called the vally of Hinnom, named after a person by that name. The valley was used as a huge pit to burn refuse, a garbage dump including the bodies of executed criminals. The fires burned continually.
We had a company many years ago that incinerated 24/7. The EPA finally shut it down. The valley of Hinnom, gehennna, was like that, burnning continually the refuse of the city.
The King James translators called the valley of Hinnom, gehennna, "hell." But how many people over the centuries know of that? How many know of that as they read this?
This is important IMO because the major verse for those that want to advance the doctrine of eternal torment uses "hell", but it is translated from the Greek, "gehenna" which was translated from the Hebrew, Valley of Hinnom.
The valley has become a park in Israel now. But 2000 years ago I guess it might have been one of the most frightening things to see in Israel. In one of my posts here, I described crossing the Great Gulf and I think that I mentioned a fire burnning below. I was referring to gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, translated by the King James as "hell".
Now do not get me wrong here. I believe all that is printed in the book called The Revelation about "hell" which is translated from Hades in the Greek which is tranlated from the Hebrew, sheol. But I find nothing in the bible where Hades, or Gehenna or hell actually says that people are tormented without end. But again, do not let me write here that there is not a Lake of Fire, for the book writes of such. And it says who is going to be cast into it.
In chaapter 21, we read in verse 8, [...But the fearful, and unbelieveing and the abominable and murders and sorcerers,...shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death....].
But I also read that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death, like Shadrach, and that death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. So I believe that there will be an end to death which will also be an end to hell.
This fire that is imiged in the book has been revealed to me to be a refiner's fire, to purify. And the torment is not physical torment.In a sense, I may agree in a sense with the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, but not the same.
Do not get me wrong here, for I believe all that the bible says about the fiery judgment. But it has been revealed to me that man's way is not God's way.
For when I was on the sand by the sea, I asked the Rider who could be saved. He turned to me and said, "With man it is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-LkvFir Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on February 25, 2008, at 23:20:07

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-LkvFir Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2008, at 20:50:19

It's funny Lou, but 7 years ago, when I first met you, and had rather fundamentalist, literalist views, I was trying to understand what you were writing about. I remember asking you, and you said it was too shocking for me to comprehend. And, you were right. I had to come to this place, going through what I did (in leaving the institutional system of Christianity), in order to see outside of the "box" that I'd limited myself to. And, amazingly enough, I've come to believe what you're writing here ... and yes, it is shocking to my mind, even as my heart leaps at the new understanding. It's more "caught than taught" in my experience. But once I received it, and stopped fighting it, I came to see it everywhere, even in Scriptures that I thought I already knew and understood.

I'm grateful that God has confirmed so many things, in so many ways, including in what you're writing here... I believe He had me meet you many years ago intentionally ... and that this has all been part of His unfolding plan.

Amazing...

There is one other word that gets translated into "hell" Lou... that's Tartarus/Tartaros... the abyss. Did you want to comment on that, or save it for later?


One thing about Gehenna... it was the place of child sacrifice, in honor of Molech, who, it was believed, demanded human sacrifice to appease him. It was an abysmal, horrid practice that was done, and some Jews got caught up in it. God rebuked them harshly, telling them that it never occurred to Him to torture and kill one's own children -- and yet many believe that God will endlessly torment His own children, in "hell"... are we thus denouncing God's character, and thinking Him to be like Molech...?

I no longer see God as one who demands that someone be punished, and take His "wrath". I see that we were all dying from a terminal disease -- death which results from sin. And that God, in His mercy, became the very cure that we needed, even dying so that we could live. Because HE loves us. And it's because He loves us that He's so wrathful against the sin which destroys us. I see His wrath as the most severe form of His mercy.

We're not objects of His wrath -- we're objects of His love.

Shalom, Dena

(I hope I'm not taking you off track with my comments, Lou... please continue as you feel led to do.)


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