Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 538674

Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Religious friends and my unease

Posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 11:33:29

This is my very first post on the Faith board. I was weary of posting here because I'm an atheist and I don't want to offend anyone. I got this post checked out first so I hope it is ok. :-)


I sometimes find myself uneasy around people who are very religious. I'm not sure why exactly. I have friend who is very religious. He believes that non believers will go to a bad place after they die. He knows I am a non believer so this means that he thinks I'm going to go to a really bad place one day. How can he continue to be my friend if he thinks this of me? I mean, I would be really upset if I thought a friend was going to go to a really bad place after they die.

I think sometimes I'm weak, I get scared. When people tell me that I'm going to go to a bad place I get scared and upset. I think my imagination gets the better of me, or maybe it is paranoia.

I don't understand people who are extremely religious...I don't understand it at all. I know next to nothing about religions. I really should learn more about the world's religions. It is a very important part of many people's lives.

I hate to think that I can only really be friends with people who are like me. I want to be friends with all people, but I don't know if I can be with friends who think such horrible fates for me. :-( Everything is ok as long as the other person doesn't talk in depth about their beliefs. I just get a little uncomfortable when they do bring it up. I know it shouldn't bother me, but I think it has more to do with what the other person thinks and not that I'm going to go to a really bad place (because I don't believe in a really bad place).

Do I make any sense here?

Deneb

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by Dena on August 7, 2005, at 14:23:17

In reply to Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 11:33:29

Deneb, I hope you don't mind if I ask you a personal question. I'm just genuinely curious about this:

How can you know you're an atheist (to be against faith in God), when you claim that you don't know much about religions (which are mankind's attempts to reach God)?

I guess, in order to be an atheist, you should know what it is you don't want any part of...

One book that I've recommended to my atheist friends (or agnostic, as most of them actually were) is "Finding Faith" by Brian McLaren... an easy-to-read, unoffensive, honest search for faith in God...

He wrote it for those who are searching, but not sure what they're searching FOR.

I hope it will help you, or at least support you in overcoming your unease...

I hope you'll find a generous measure of peace...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease

Posted by spriggy on August 7, 2005, at 15:01:11

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by Dena on August 7, 2005, at 14:23:17

I think your feelings around "religious" people makes sense to me.

I know before I really turned my life over to God and got to know who He is, I didn't enjoy being around people who talked about this somebody that I seemed to not know.

As a matter of fact, I deliberately stayed clear of people who talked a lot about God because it made me very uncomfortable.

I am a Christian but I have friends who aren't Christians. My neighbor is an atheist. We have him over for dinner and have a very friendly relationship with him. We have shared our faith in God with him- and he has listened and then shared why he has chosen to not believe in God.

We know where each stands.

I think I want to add here that it's possible your friends who share with you about eternity ( the ones you mentioned that tell you that you will end up in a bad place), are likely sharing that with you not to condemn you, but because they love you and don't want to see that happen to you.

I think it's great you posted this. I think it gives us all an oppurtunity to reflect and understand where each other are coming from.

*the lady who skipped church today because she is packing*

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Dena

Posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 15:30:21

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by Dena on August 7, 2005, at 14:23:17

> How can you know you're an atheist (to be against faith in God), when you claim that you don't know much about religions (which are mankind's attempts to reach God)?

> I guess, in order to be an atheist, you should know what it is you don't want any part of...

Hmmm...I'm not against faith in God, that is, I'm not opposed to it in any way. I guess I think I'm an atheist because I don't believe there is/are a God or gods/spirits/souls etc. My skeptcism applies to all areas in my life and not just faith. I know that faith can be very comforting to many people and I know I am missing out on something potentially beneficial, but I just don't believe things until I have evidence and even then there is always the potential the evidence was wrong/misleading.

I really do need to learn more about religions though, I should read some religious texts etc. to understand others better. It will also help whenever religious references are made in books and elsewhere. :-)

I have nothing against religion, in fact, I think it is a very good thing for some people. Recently I told a friend that I will pray for him if he believes in God. I will pray for other people even though I am an atheist because some people will be comforted by friends who pray for them. I guess to me it is not really about communication with God, it is about wishing people well.

> One book that I've recommended to my atheist friends (or agnostic, as most of them actually were) is "Finding Faith" by Brian McLaren... an easy-to-read, unoffensive, honest search for faith in God...

Sounds interesting, I might read it when I have some time. I also need an Idiots' guide to the Bible and other religious texts if you know of any. :-)

> He wrote it for those who are searching, but not sure what they're searching FOR.

Right now I'm just searching for new experiences, knowledge and fun times. :-)

Thanks Dena

P.S. You posted the wrong Amazon link, but I corrected it above. :-)

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by Tamar on August 7, 2005, at 16:08:48

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Dena, posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 15:30:21

> Sounds interesting, I might read it when I have some time. I also need an Idiots' guide to the Bible and other religious texts if you know of any. :-)

I don't know if it counts as an idiot's guide, but you might like to read "J.W. Rogerson, Introduction to the Bible". It's a bit expensive but worth a read, and you might be able to find it in a library.

Tamar

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by rayww on August 7, 2005, at 23:39:45

In reply to Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 11:33:29

Deneb welcome to this board. I hope you'll stay long enough to explore/discover some faith issues. It is good you asked questions, and brought up what you did. I hope you will keep an open mind and will search for truth. Not all religions believe in the same bad place, so that should tell you something about the belief. It has been said that the Glory of God is Intelligence. Intelligence does not conflict with true science, and therefore true religion embraces it. So, in your study, think of it as intelligence, wisdom, understanding, rather than religion, if that makes sense. Because as soon as you label it religion, you will find yourself asking, "which one"?

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease rayww

Posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 21:20:36

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by rayww on August 7, 2005, at 23:39:45

> Deneb welcome to this board. I hope you'll stay long enough to explore/discover some faith issues. It is good you asked questions, and brought up what you did.

Sometimes I feel like I'm a visitor from another planet...there are sooo many things I don't know about and haven't experienced yet. I'm curious about all things.

> I hope you will keep an open mind and will search for truth.

Few things are black and white and I believe truth to be one of them.

> It has been said that the Glory of God is Intelligence.

I'm unsure whether or not intelligence is advantageous or not. It may have given humans a selective advantage in the short term, but I have a feeling this may not be anymore.

> Intelligence does not conflict with true science, and therefore true religion embraces it.

What do you mean by "true" science and "true" religion?

>So, in your study, think of it as intelligence, wisdom, understanding, rather than religion, if that makes sense. Because as soon as you label it religion, you will find yourself asking, "which one"?

"Which one" matters a whole lot to many people IMO.

I think faith and religion is very good for certain people. Some people need it, some people don't. I'm not sure I'm one of those who need it. I want to learn about it and understand it more to understand others, but I don't think I need it.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've already started reading some threads...it is interesting.

Deneb

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by rayww on August 8, 2005, at 21:59:32

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease rayww, posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 21:20:36

Which one--In the beginning there was only one, and it wasn't called "religion", it just was. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" Look where we've been since then, up to thousands upon thousands of religions, and all a little different, and all were developed to reach (a) God. Man has always had a basic need to worship.

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease

Posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 22:52:19

In reply to Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 11:33:29

I just don't understand matters of faith and spirituality.

I'm afraid I might end up offending people here if I speak my mind. I think it might be best for me to limit my interactions here on this board.

I accept differences in other people (unless there's some horrible projection thing going on :-P ), and I'll leave it at that.

I've learned not to debate certain matters. :-)

Deneb


 

Re: Religious friends and my unease

Posted by Dena on August 8, 2005, at 23:12:13

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 22:52:19

> I just don't understand matters of faith and spirituality.
>
<I've found that the closer I get to God, the less I understand, and the more I experience. For me, it's a relationship with Him, with limited understanding.

> I'm afraid I might end up offending people here if I speak my mind. I think it might be best for me to limit my interactions here on this board.
>
<I think that would be a shame! And speaking of shame, I'm ashamed of how I (& other religious folks) tend to NOT listen to those who have negative/critical/questioning things to say about faith... I think keeping an open conversation going is critical. Those who aren't "of faith" can add much to the conversation, and can help those of us "in faith" to see ourselves through others' eyes. It's so easy to get saturated in our faith communities... faith "ghettos" if you will, and we speak an inner language that excludes others, and makes us feel all pumped up and superior to those who aren't "of faith".

I find that when someone is seeking faith, or exploring the options, shares what they think and how they feel, they cause me to see my own faith through fresh eyes... I'm forced to stretch beyond my own "faith language", and to explain things in "normal" language. When I'm able to convey something about my faith, in a way that someone else can grasp - it's very rewarding, whether or not they agree with my beliefs.

I want honesty and trust in my conversations with others, and I don't want to hide behind safe rhetoric, and pat answers. Sometimes, we just don't have the answers. It unnerves me when we feel the pressure to pretend that we do have all the answers... and it's disingenuine to those we're conversing with.

I want to be more authentic, than absolute.

> I accept differences in other people (unless there's some horrible projection thing going on :-P ), and I'll leave it at that.
>
> I've learned not to debate certain matters. :-)
>
<I agree that debate serves little purpose... a debate implies that one must win, and the other must lose. I don't see it that way anymore, though I did once.

I see it as a search for truth, and not just "absolute truth", as I doubt any of us could grasp something so huge with our finite minds. But I see it as a search for how the available truth affects us where we are at that moment in time... on the journey from here to where we yearn to be. A place of healing, and significance, and purpose and finding our own place in it all...

I believe that God is connected to that "place" and purpose. I believe that there is a purpose to everything, and that it all works together for good, if we seek that greater good, outside of ourselves, but available to join ourselves to.

I believe I am most happy, most content, and most fulfilled, when I'm connected to that purpose that best fits me (& which I best fit!) ... and what a joy to be alongside others, whose paths cross and mingle with mine, as they, too find their own "right place"...

Ok, it's late... perhaps I'm just babbling... but, please Deneb - join the conversation. You have much to share, and we all have much to learn from each other...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 23:24:07

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 22:52:19

Thanks for making me feel better Dena. :-)

Hmmm...lets see, I have a question!

Why do many people answer questions about religion with quotes from religious texts? Are the quotes supposed to stand alone? I suppose they might stand alone for people who believe in them, but I always find it a little strange to have all my questions answered through quotations I don't know anything about.

Deneb

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by Dena on August 9, 2005, at 0:26:00

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 23:24:07

You're welcome!

Now, I can't speak for other religions, and I can't even speak for everyone in my own... but I can speak for me.

I'm a Christian, and modern era Christians have largely been taught that we "have all the answers", and that the Bible is the "ultimate answer book", and that if we spew enough scripture verses at someone, it'll stop them in their tracks and convict them that we're right, and they're wrong.

An overly simplistic and somewhat jaded response, perhaps... but not too far from truth, as I've experienced it.

I don't see the Bible that way anymore...

I do see it as a collection of books/letters/stories that were inspired by God, but He used the human writers (with each of their unique personalities to "flavor" the accounts).

But much of the Bible defies understanding... it's not an answer book in the way that many portray it to be.

It does answer (for Christians) how God loves His creation, including us, and how He wants to inter-relate with us... and the Bible is the story of that inter-relating throughout history (until 2,000 years ago).

I believe that there are times when the Spirit of God can "inhabit" the written words in the Bible, and cause them to speak directly into the heart of the reader/hearer ... as if He were having a one-on-one with that person. But that's something God does - not something we can drum up.

I guess that for some folks, they just don't know *what* to say to others, and so they throw out Bible verses like a sort of spiritual boomerang...

Ultimately, I believe that unless the spirit of God is "illuminating" the Bible verses, they don't make sense to us... they can speak to us on a spirit level, that can by-pass the cognitive mind at times...

Is this sounding like gobbeldy-g*ok to you? If I need to clarify anything, just let me know. I don't want to speak in "Stained-glass-ese"... I want to communicate, but words can be so inadequate at times...!

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Dena

Posted by Deneb on August 9, 2005, at 7:54:58

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by Dena on August 9, 2005, at 0:26:00

Thanks Dena, I think I get what you're trying to say.

So, to some people the Bible is filled with stories and verses to help people connect with God?

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by Dena on August 9, 2005, at 9:11:27

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Dena, posted by Deneb on August 9, 2005, at 7:54:58

Yes, Deneb... the Bible is a collection of many books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc. in the Old Testament - "Testament" means covenant, or agreement between God and mankind - and Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. in the New Testament).

Many different people were involved in writing the books... but all of them have a common theme: How God interacted with human beings (& this planet) over the centuries.

How He created the world and the universe, how He chose a particular group of people to be an example of relationship with Him (the Jews), how He wanted people to live their lives (so that they'd be most blessed, and be a blessing to the rest of the world).

How He influenced people through the ages, and how some of them disobeyed Him and rebelled against Him (which we're prone to do, thinking we don't need Him).

How He provided a plan that would allow people to be intimately close to Him, to truly know Him, and to live with Him forever.

So, yes, the Bible has stories - some good and some bad. And the Bible has advice for how to live, guidelines for living. And it has prophecy (fortelling of future events), and songs of praise to God (the Psalms), and philosophy (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes), and erotic love poetry (Song of Solomon), and the accounts of Jesus (the Gospels), and history, and parables (stories that teach lessons)...

What's uncanny about it, remarkable about it, is how it spans thousands of years, three continents, many diverse civilizations, three languages, and countless individuals, and yet it has a cohesive message: God loves us, wants a relationship with us, and reaches out to us, wanting us to return that love and know Him.

A rather lengthy response to your short question - I DO tend to go on... hopefully it was helpful. If not, try again.

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by rayww on August 9, 2005, at 16:17:14

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 8, 2005, at 22:52:19

I was starting to reply to your message last night when my husband walked in, and instead of shutting down, I sent it, and I probably shouldn't have. I agree with most everything Dena said - - she knows how to really get to the heart doesn't she? I'll try not to be so careless from now on.
rayww

 

beautifully explained (nm) Dena

Posted by rayww on August 9, 2005, at 16:21:23

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by Dena on August 9, 2005, at 0:26:00

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb

Posted by JLx on August 16, 2005, at 12:48:50

In reply to Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 11:33:29

I hope this post passes muster on this board. I read the intro and examples, so we'll see...

I was friends with someone for many years who was religious while I was an agnostic/atheist whose previous religious exposure was minimal.

I too used to feel that sense of unease and paranoia, not only because of the discussions I had with this person, but because general society (in the US) is saturated with Christianity, often filtering through to the nonChristian by osmosis in a definite "Us/Them" manner about the state and fate of our immortal souls.

What I found extremely helpful in terms of putting such beliefs in perspective, was to learn more about various religions. I recommend Huston Smith's book, "The World's Religions" for an overview.

Even more beneficial and interesting regarding people's actual personal beliefs (not just the doctrine of their religion)was the internet, especially message boards. For many years, I participated on CNN's Religion Today (now defunct) which, because it had a world audience, attracted a very broad group of posters, including Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Christians of many stripes, Wiccans, Pagans, Jews, Baha'i as well as atheists and agnostics, of course. One of the most fascinating discussions I've ever witnessed was between a Muslim and a fundamentalist Christian where the Muslim, with a great deal of sincerity and respect, attempted to dissuade the Christian poster of his "false" belief in Jesus Christ's divinity, very adroitly using the New Testament! (In Islam, Jesus Christ is spoken about in the Qu'ran and revered as a prophet, but not as the son of God, so many Muslims have also studied the New Testament.) Seeing two such true believers face off using the same text but with different conclusions from different religions, was mind boggling. As was the discussion where a Buddhist tried to convince another fellow that the *reality* of the chair he was sitting on was a product of perspective and illusion. The diversity of religious belief and practice is wondrous. :)

I also recommend "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, which is an exploration of the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. For what is meant by "Abrahamic" see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

From your comments in another post, you sound scientifically inclined and if so, might be interested in neurotheology. Wikipedia has a good overview of that too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology You might also find "the God gene" interesting to Google.

I suspect that we are all to some extent hardwired to be religiously inclined or not. In my case, it's more "not" apparently.

JL


 

Re: Religious friends and my unease JLx

Posted by ClearSkies on August 17, 2005, at 14:24:28

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease Deneb, posted by JLx on August 16, 2005, at 12:48:50

Thanks for this interesting post! I am like Deneb in being self-educated - or rather, un, in matters religious. I appreciate the links and your thoughts!!
ClearSkies

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease ClearSkies

Posted by JLx on August 19, 2005, at 10:48:12

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease JLx, posted by ClearSkies on August 17, 2005, at 14:24:28

> Thanks for this interesting post! I am like Deneb in being self-educated - or rather, un, in matters religious. I appreciate the links and your thoughts!!
> ClearSkies

One thing I realized from being exposed to other NONChristian believers is how much my years of discussion with my Christian friend had influenced me into equating Christianty with God and faith. To many Christians that appears logical but then the problem for the nonChristian who accepts this is that no belief in God or faith in a higher power is possible if one rejects the beliefs of Christianity. Seeing that there are many other belief systems (as many as there are people, imo! :)) can be liberating and helpful in defining one's one sense of spirituality.

If you haven't already run across it, you might like to explore http://www.religioustolerance.org/ It's a huge site that tries to provide unbiased information about many various religions and/or both sides of religious controversies.

This is a fun quiz, although, wow, this site has almost become overrun with ads! http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/ I've taken that quiz several times now over the years it's been available and I always come out the same with Unitarian at the top at 100% and Roman Catholic or Jehovah's Witness at the bottom. Ironically, the RCC is the only one I had exposure to when young. ;) Taoism, which is the religious tradition I consider myself most drawn to, is about midway. Not sure why that is. A great Taoism book, btw, is "The Tao of Pooh". It ingeniously uses the Winnie the Pooh characters to explain some major Taoist principles. It's a quick and often humorous read. (I don't recommend the follow up, however, "The Te of Piglet". Success apparently went to the author's head in that one and his personal biases crept in to an unacceptable level.)

JL

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease JLx

Posted by Tamar on August 20, 2005, at 15:27:49

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease ClearSkies, posted by JLx on August 19, 2005, at 10:48:12

> This is a fun quiz, although, wow, this site has almost become overrun with ads! http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/ I've taken that quiz several times now over the years it's been available and I always come out the same with Unitarian at the top at 100% and Roman Catholic or Jehovah's Witness at the bottom. Ironically, the RCC is the only one I had exposure to when young. ;)

That was a fun quiz! Yeah, I came out with Unitarian Universalism too, with the RCC and Jehovah's Witnesses at the bottom; although really I'm a liberal protestant.

But I still think I probably have much more in common with the Roman Catholicism than I do with New Age, Bahai or Scientology (to choose three at random).

So I wonder on what basis the scores are calculated!

Tamar

 

Re: Quiz

Posted by Deneb on August 20, 2005, at 17:46:51

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease JLx, posted by Tamar on August 20, 2005, at 15:27:49

Secular Humanism scored 100% for me, second was Unitarian Universalism.

Jehovah's Witness and Seventh Day Adventist were the last for me.

Deneb

 

Re: Religious friends and my unease Tamar

Posted by JLx on August 25, 2005, at 19:11:31

In reply to Re: Religious friends and my unease JLx, posted by Tamar on August 20, 2005, at 15:27:49

> That was a fun quiz! Yeah, I came out with Unitarian Universalism too, with the RCC and Jehovah's Witnesses at the bottom; although really I'm a liberal protestant.
>
> But I still think I probably have much more in common with the Roman Catholicism than I do with New Age, Bahai or Scientology (to choose three at random).
>
> So I wonder on what basis the scores are calculated!

Well, if you look at the question options closely you can see how some are devised to identify certain relgions, such as those about attachments, designed to identify Buddhists evidently. Certain other questions are designed to rule out too, I think, such as the abortion question and the RCC.

I suspect that accuracy applies most to what comes out on top, based on the statements we agree with most strongly.

JL

 

Another perspective

Posted by alohashirt on September 8, 2005, at 22:34:12

In reply to Religious friends and my unease, posted by Deneb on August 7, 2005, at 11:33:29

> This is my very first post on the Faith board. I was weary of posting here because I'm an atheist and I don't want to offend anyone. I got this post checked out first so I hope it is ok. :-)
>
>
> I sometimes find myself uneasy around people who are very religious. I'm not sure why exactly. I have friend who is very religious. He believes that non believers will go to a bad place after they die. He knows I am a non believer so this means that he thinks I'm going to go to a really bad place one day. How can he continue to be my friend if he thinks this of me? I mean, I would be really upset if I thought a friend was going to go to a really bad place after they die.

Presumably there is some reason (beyond chance) that you are friends? I had an experience many years ago of visiting a group of people who were very different culturally to me. I was one of a group of psychology students in London, UK who visited a group of psychology students in a small town in Missouri, right in the Bible Belt. We were a bunch of urban, self-conciously liberal, heavy drinking and partying people who had formed a striong caring bond. The students we met were extremely hospitable, friendly and welcoming. They had the same range of personality types that we did (the class joker, the ice maiden, the drama queen, the serious student, the party girl, ..) but when they opened their mouth's what came out seemed (from my perspective) Christian with a capital C, conservative, racist, exclusionary, and biblical. But I couldn't avoid seeing that if I had grown up there I'd be one of them, and if they'd grown up in London they'd be one of us.

The trip taught me that being with people who seem different to me is scary, uncomfortable, hard work, and requires a lot of trust. It also taught me that people are people, and we are much more similar than we like to pretend. I used to think that I couldn't be friends with someone whose views are offensive to me, but slowly I grow up.

You are lucky to have a friend whose beliefs are foreign. There is a lot about yourself and what you value that you can learn from this person. Put up with the discomfort and you will become a better person for it. Developing acceptance is the hardest thing but he most valuable thing. Enjoy the things tha you value about your friend and let them know that you value these things. Write a list of all their great qualities. I was a scientist for years. Scientists base their professional lives on faith (in the scientific method) Irwin Yalom has written some stuffs about existential fears that all people share and religion can be seen as one of a number of way sof dealing with those fears. He sees all people as being afraid of

their own mortality
meaninglessness of life
their freedom to act however they choos
and their ultimate aloneness

EM Forsters novels address this issue in a humorous intelligent fashion.


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.