Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 385323

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Re: please rephrase or clarify that Dr. Bob

Posted by rayww on September 5, 2004, at 10:41:15

In reply to Re: please rephrase or clarify that rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2004, at 2:14:25

In response to the question, "Why are people offended by God?

>
> Most associate God with the Judeo-Christian beliefs, as in God in the Bible. In the Bible God is pretty clear that He is God, and the rest of us aren't. He lets us know that He's in charge, and that if we want eternal life, as well as blessings in this life, we need to do things His way. That becomes a problem when His way is not our way.
>
> Political correctness insists that ALL ways lead to God and that all ways are equally "right", but (in the Bible) God says only His way is right.

Dr Bob, I was referring to the beginning of the first paragraph which stated "most associate God with the Judeo/Christian beliefs, as in God in the Bible. In the "Bible" God is pretty clear that only His way is right.
http://scriptures.lds.org/lev/26/3#3
To further document God has the authority, power of creation, and control over the elements:http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22peace+be+still%22&search.x=32&search.y=10

So, according to the "Bible", we should worship He, whose creation this is. Christians, including Mormons believe Jesus Christ is also God. Mormons believe it was Christ who communicated to Noah, Moses, and the other prophets in the Old Testament. There are many different beliefs, even stemming from the Bible, yet all agree that God (whomever He is), through recorded history, both religious and otherwise in the "Bible", states His way.

http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/16/13#13
Whom do "you" say He is?
http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/17/3#3

 

Lou as amicus curie-Dr.Hsiung, rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on September 5, 2004, at 12:51:07

In reply to Re: please rephrase or clarify that Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on September 5, 2004, at 10:41:15

Dr. Hsiung and rayww.
I come to this discussion as a friend of the forum to give my thoughts about how this situation appears to me and how the administrative rules apply.
First, the rule in question here is mentioned prominatly on the opening page of the faith forum. The rule states that there is a principle that is to be followed in posting that [...whoever dares to say: Outside the church there is no salvation is to be driven...].
In rayww's post in question, rayww writes,[...He, (God}, says that Jesus is the only way to Him.] and, [...No other way is given by God, except through the salvation offered by Jesus...].
The forum has to consider the following;
A. Does the post say what one would be driven from the community for? ie; [...that whoever dares to say tha there is no salvation outside of the church...]
B. Is the rule violated by rayww's post
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040729/msgs/385777.html

 

Redirect: administrative rules

Posted by Dr. Bob on September 6, 2004, at 16:52:12

In reply to Lou as amicus curie-Dr.Hsiung, rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on September 5, 2004, at 12:51:07

> I come to this discussion as a friend of the forum to give my thoughts about how this situation appears to me and how the administrative rules apply...

I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding administrative issues to Psycho-Babble Administration. Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040902/msgs/387241.html

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please be supportive rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on September 6, 2004, at 17:21:44

In reply to Re: please rephrase or clarify that Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on September 5, 2004, at 10:41:15

> In the "Bible" God is pretty clear that only His way is right.
>
> So, according to the "Bible", we should worship He, whose creation this is.

Thanks for clarifying. Referring back to my example of what I'm considering generally supportive:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7889.html

I think I need to ask you in the future to phrase comments like the above more like:

> People of my faith believe that only His way is right.
>
> People of my faith worship He, whose creation this is.

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course be civil.

Thanks,

Bob

 

god talk

Posted by tai daluna on September 10, 2004, at 4:02:03

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God?, posted by verne on September 1, 2004, at 17:26:58

i think a lot of people are offended by the mention of god, because it is so often followed by condemnation and/or oppression. for example, as a woman, i find a religion offensive when it takes away freedoms i feel are personal and mine to have: such as control over my own body and reproduction. for this reason, i know that many of my friends have violent reactions to the mention of god or church. unfortunately, for them it is not about faith, but politics; the politics of oppression. personally, when my personal freedoms are threatened by a community that wants to tell me what i can do with my own body, i feel angry and militant. it is not my place to tell others how to live their lives. i do not appreciate being told how to live mine. also, a lot of people get very angry when they are told there is only one god and that they are going to hell for not believing in it. i know i sure do. and for a long time god= exclusion for me, because i didn't have that sort of absolute faith. most people don't take well to being told that they are going to hell.
peace.
tai

 

Re: god talk tai daluna

Posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 13, 2004, at 11:53:26

In reply to god talk, posted by tai daluna on September 10, 2004, at 4:02:03

Good points. I have been in that boat of being told I was going to hell because I was Catholic, that I wasn't really a "Christian."

i think your point about the politics of religion being offensive as opposed to God being offensive is a good one. I wish that weren't the case.

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? Miss Honeychurch

Posted by NikkiT2 on September 13, 2004, at 17:25:53

In reply to Why are people offended by God?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 1, 2004, at 15:31:37

I'm not offended by talk of God. I have spoken oftem on here of my deep interest in all aspects of spirituality. I love talking to people about their own personal Gods, who ever they are and whatever religion they are.

What I get offended about is being told that my way, because I don't follow or believe in the Christian God, is the wrong way.

Nikki

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? NikkiT2

Posted by rayww on September 14, 2004, at 18:25:43

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? Miss Honeychurch, posted by NikkiT2 on September 13, 2004, at 17:25:53

How do you (and others outside of Christianity) define the Christian God?

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? Cass

Posted by rayww on September 14, 2004, at 18:51:41

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God?, posted by Cass on September 2, 2004, at 13:17:38

Is it mostly we Christians who make you feel God is not on your side? I think God would be happy to have anyone acknowledge him, no matter how they perceived him to be or where they lived. However, I can't see him answering a prayer that was said to a rock, as God cannot lie and will not deceive and the real God would not want us thinking we could pray to this thing and get answers like magic.

Perhaps one common thread in all beliefs concerning God is that we have been created by some power greater than our own. We didn't just happen, and since there is such 100% complete order in the universe, that creator must be pretty perfect.

 

Re: god talk

Posted by rayww on September 14, 2004, at 18:56:39

In reply to Re: god talk tai daluna, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 13, 2004, at 11:53:26

> Good points. I have been in that boat of being told I was going to hell because I was Catholic, that I wasn't really a "Christian."
>
> i think your point about the politics of religion being offensive as opposed to God being offensive is a good one. I wish that weren't the case.


I like how you have separated God from the politics of religion. God is a good focus point. I believe He has zero tollerance for the abuse and misuse of women (and children).

 

Re: god talk tai daluna

Posted by rayww on September 14, 2004, at 19:03:56

In reply to god talk, posted by tai daluna on September 10, 2004, at 4:02:03

If you are saying what I think you are saying, this absolutely breaks my heart. If women all over the world would unite in faith and pray for this kind of oppression to end, it would crumble to the ground. I'm sure of it.

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww

Posted by NikkiT2 on September 15, 2004, at 13:30:25

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? NikkiT2, posted by rayww on September 14, 2004, at 18:25:43

Um.. the guy that was Jesus's father? I'm not sure how to explain.. The person commonly known as "God". As in, the God believed in by Christians, Jews, Catholics, Muslims etc.

Sorry, even having studied some theology, I suddenly find I can't explain who I mean, as most people seem to kow exactly who I mean when I say the "Christian God" as by saying that I mean the Father of Christ.

Nikki

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww

Posted by Cass on September 15, 2004, at 14:17:10

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? Cass, posted by rayww on September 14, 2004, at 18:51:41


Dear ray,

When you write "there is such 100% complete order in the universe...", what exactly are you referring to? The natural environment excluding human beings? The natural environment including human beings? The laws of physics?

The way I see it, human beings are a part of nature, and human beings can create unatural devastation to the environment, social injustice and all kinds of situations that seem very "ungodly".

I don't draw the conclusion that God is imperfect because of this. I simply suspect that God is not omnipotent.


 

Re: Why are people offended by God?

Posted by Jai Narayan on September 15, 2004, at 20:08:21

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by Cass on September 15, 2004, at 14:17:10

My beliefs are that God is evolving just as we are. Everything grows. We all evolve.
I like that.
Jai

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? Cass

Posted by rayww on September 16, 2004, at 16:29:19

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by Cass on September 15, 2004, at 14:17:10

I mean 100% order in creation, in balance, in our ecosystem. I agree, man sometimes thinks he knows better, and creates havoc with nature, but nature itself is a house of order.

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? Jai Narayan

Posted by rayww on September 16, 2004, at 16:53:09

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God?, posted by Jai Narayan on September 15, 2004, at 20:08:21

I believe that too. Evolving into a more perfect or more evil self is what we call eternal progress. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=eternal+progression&scripturesearch_button=Search


 

Re: Why are people offended by God? NikkiT2

Posted by rayww on September 16, 2004, at 17:00:48

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on September 15, 2004, at 13:30:25

Isn't that the crux of the problem? No one agrees exactly on how to define God. Even when God defines Himself there is disagreement. If it's a heavenly problem there must be a heavenly solution. things of the world are physical and worldly, but things not of this world are spiritual and supernatural. Since there is both good and evil in the spiritual realm, then it is up to us to sort it our for ourselves. Just as satan willingly reveals himself to those who ask, so does God. What happens when you ask? If it is a spiritual problem, we need to employ the spiritual powers of faith and trust in order to empower ourselves in that realm.

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww

Posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 10:32:11

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? NikkiT2, posted by rayww on September 16, 2004, at 17:00:48

As someone who was raised in a strict Irish Roman Catholic household, and has since abandoned any form of organized religion, perhaps I can add another perspective. I believe there is a difference between believing in a spiritual presence (whether you call it God or something else) and between belonging to an organized religion. As I grew older, I began to perceive so many contradictions between what Jesus is alleged to have preached (which I agree with philosophically and morally) and what the Catholic Church put forth as dogma that I came to the conclusion that organizied religion can be as much an impediment to communion with a divine spirit as a help. I saw (and still see) no reason why someone can't simply meditate or talk or pray or chant or sing individually as a form of spirituality. And then I look at the acts that have been committed in the names of various organized religions. In the case of Christianity, for example, many seem to run utterly counter to Jesus's teachings. Take, for example, the notion of being a soldier and being a Christian simultaneously. For the first four centuries of the Christian church, the organization followed a decree by Peter, personal friend and follower of Jesus and his hand-picked successor, if you believe the Gospels to be accurate. Peter ruled that belonging to the Roman army and being a Christian were utterly contradictory. He argued that you could not be a professional killer and then turn around and say that you adhered to the teachings of Jesus. This was asking people to give up a lot in those days. For people who were not ethnic Romans, the only way to acquire full Roman citizenship and a chance to really get ahead in life was to serve in the Roman legion. Citizenship was the main perk that lured recruits into the fold. After the Roman empire collapsed about 470 A.D., Peter's rule was disregarded. Peter's argument had been that the commandment was not "Thou shalt not kill ... except in cases of (X) and (Y)." It was simply, "Don't kill anyone." Period. No exceptions, not even for self-defense. And Jesus himself made this explicit, calling on someone who is attacked to "turn the other cheek." Yet if you look at the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, just to name two examples, you see an awful lot of blood being spilled in Jesus's name. I can't imagine he'd be too thrilled about that. All of this is a long way of saying that people in my family have long equated my rejection of the Catholic Church with atheism, when nothing could be further from the truth. I think the real questions to ask are these: Why do people equate participation in an organized religion with faith, and the absence of such participation as a lack of faith? I don't believe most people are "offended by God." I think some, though, like me, are very much offended by the policies and actions of organized religions that purport to be God's only valid messengers and mouthpieces on Earth. This is not to say that people shouldn't feel free to participate in any organized religion they want, and that all organized religions have only negative effects. If everyone practiced his or her own faith/religion in his or her own way and let everyone else do the same, I think the world would be a much nicer place in which to live. But we all know that's not the way it works in real life. And I don't like being the target of proselytism simply because I choose not to identify myself with this religious organization or that one. I've come to feel that that someone doesn't need a church or even a name for his or her faith to be spiritual. The real problem, as I see it, is that religion and spirituality are indistinguishable in so many peoples' minds. Atticus

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? Atticus

Posted by verne on September 20, 2004, at 11:51:30

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 10:32:11

beautifully put. I agree completely. I've given up on organized religion but still read the scripture - from all religions although for cultural reasons I lean towards the new testament. Most of what the churches are doing doesn't resemble anything in the sermon on the mount. It doesn't take long for man to distort scripture - the letter kills, the spirit gives life.

verne

 

Lou's response to Atticus

Posted by Lou Pilder on September 20, 2004, at 11:54:08

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 10:32:11

Atticus,
You wrote,[...I don't believe...people are "offended by God"...some are offended by ... actions of ...religions that purport to be God's ...mouthpieces...].
I like that you separate God from "religion".
Lou

 

Perhaps it's the presentation....

Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:49:12

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? Miss Honeychurch, posted by NikkiT2 on September 13, 2004, at 17:25:53

Not here of course. I'm not talking Babble specific in any way.

But there's a great scene in The Cosby Show where Vanessa brings home her working class fiance of six months, whom she has not mentioned to her parents. And Cliff tells him that yes, they dislike him, but their dislike has nothing to do with him. He compares the young man to a beatiful sizzling steak presented on a smelly garbage can lid.

It holds true for anything, not just God. Presentation can be important. I've always admired the Mormon ideal of being a missionary through the way you live your life. And then when people ask the secret of your happy life, you tell them that *your* answer has been a love of God. That seems to me to be a beautiful presentation of God.

 

Re: Perhaps it's the presentation.... Dinah

Posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 14:29:11

In reply to Perhaps it's the presentation...., posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:49:12

I couldn't agree more, Dinah. To my way of thinking, the ultimate way to demonstrate your faith if, say, you're a Christian, would be to try to adhere to the principles advocated by Jesus in all of your day-to-day interactions with others. The same would go for the major figures in other religions, such as Buddha. You could end up with a planet full of people like Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. -- which, all things considered, would be a pretty nice place to live. Atticus

 

Re: Why are people offended by God?

Posted by rayww on September 20, 2004, at 16:10:37

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 10:32:11

Your thoughtful expression makes a lot of sense and I couldn't agree more. My understanding began at my mother's knee. Her's began the same way. I don't remember thinking or talking about organized religion. It was only about God, and how He talked to and dealt with His prophets and people, and what I might learn from their mistakes and examples, but mainly how I should live my life, and why we should keep the commandments. "If we keep the commandments of God we have no need to fear....because God will protect us and even if we die, we die unto Him.....If we lose something, pray about it and God will help us find it agian.......If we get sick, ask for a blessing, and God will make us well.......If we get lost, pray and God will help us find our way".....and things like that.

I belong to an organized religion, but I own my personal understanding. I view religion as a vehicle to understanding and salvation but I view my personal understanding as a vehicle to God.

You are right when you say, "religion and spirituality are indistinguishable in so many peoples' minds". Frankly, I think you can find spiritual people and hypocrites in every organized religion. And you can also find spiritual people outside of organized religion. Spirituality boils down to one's personal understanding and private religious behavior, whether in or outside organized religion.

Truth is where it's at. Search for truth. All truth emenates from God and begats understanding and wisdom.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=understanding+wisdom&scripturesearch_button=Search
http://scriptures.lds.org/job/28/28#28
http://scriptures.lds.org/prov/9/10#10
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=breastplate+of+truth&search.x=31&search.y=10

Does God have a favored people? Yes. The righteous. And they can be found in every religion or on the outside. They are those whose personal understanding and private religious behavior find favor with their God, bringing Him joy. Can God's joy increase? Can God progress? Yes. We through Him and He through us can all grow toward perfect joy until inseparably connected, we dwell with Him forever.

 

Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww

Posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 18:57:33

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God?, posted by rayww on September 20, 2004, at 16:10:37

I hope no one will infer that just because organized religion isn't my cup of tea, I'm opposed to all organized religion. Far from it. Certainly, as you say, both great things and terrible things have come out of organized religion. I named some terrible things, but to be fair, let me name a great one. I believe organized religion was instrumental to the civil rights movement among African Americans of the 1950s and 1960s, and remains so today. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s own church, where he was the pastor, became a locus for organizing non-violent protest marches and economic boycotts that targeted racism. In this case, I think the structure and shared belief system of an organized religion provided a ready-made moral and logistical structure for a stunning and inspiring moral mission. Hearing King's "I have a dream" speech at the Lincoln Memorial at the Washington Mall never fails to send chills up and down my spine; I know I am hearing humanity at its finest through his preacher's cadences, expressing its aspirations toward the divine, toward a higher level of spirituality. Atticus

 

I certainly agree (nm) Atticus

Posted by rayww on September 20, 2004, at 23:44:50

In reply to Re: Why are people offended by God? rayww, posted by Atticus on September 20, 2004, at 18:57:33


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