Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 253565

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trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy)

Posted by rayww on August 24, 2003, at 9:38:11

I enjoyed a weekend of mania or something. I had an almost super human ability to work fast and hard. I don't know how I knew the exact number of jars I would need to process the vegies from my garden, or how much to pick for it to work out exactly right for my two pressuer canners, but at the end of the day the numbers had been perfect. I won't go into detail because that is not my point. The point is, I was able to "channel" the mania toward something positive, and I took it to the limit. The end result was real. I had a shelf full of food processed from my garden. There was nothing imaginary about that at all. But nothing short of a miracle for me at this age and stage of aches, complaints, and pains.

Spiritual mania can be real too. Even when taken to the limit. Bipolars have that special ability to experience life in the outer limit arena. I like it out there for the most part. I don't like the down time, but it always passes eventually.

Sexual mania is also real. Ask my husband. When one does not understand the mania, one might try to manipulate, force, expect regularly, what can only be achieved in the (channelled) cycle. Pity, pity.

Let me see if I can express this right. In life there is such a thing as a spiritual orgasm of sorts too. What if there was this once in a life time huge spiritual orgasm waiting and was within reach of everyone? You go along, wondering if you have had it or not, and sometimes think "this is it", but when it actually hits, you suddenly understand. All the other little spiritual experiences, take formation behind this one, and then it makes perfect sense. You realize the numbers have worked out for you, as though you actually knew what was coming. Perhaps something inside of us does know what is coming.

I doubt I can do this justice with words, because it's just a feeling I have. But, until we have a "real" spiritual experience, we will not be able to understand what a real spiritual experience actually is.

Does everyone agree that we have a spirit inside our body, that youthful personification of ourselves, the eternal element that cannot be destroyed, the spirit son or daughter of God? That bouncy trouncy happy joyful part of ourselves? When that part of us has a spiritual experience it is very real.

The reason medications can alter or affect our spirituality is because God works through natural law in everything too, and yes, man can alter natural law. There is supposed to be perfect balance and harmony in natural things. When that balance goes out of whack just a speck (pardon my lack of scientific terminology?) we may hallucinate, or envision, or see things that are not here. We may hear sounds that aren't there. This is not a spiritual experience.

However, it is possible to hear sounds that aren't here, and see things that no one else can see in the real spiritual world. I have not seen, but I have heard an actual voice from heaven. It was piercingly beautiful. It was harmonious. I didn't recognize it as being from heaven at first, until I knew there was no one else sitting near me who could have produced the perfect harmony to the music being played. But as soon as the young girls had sung their song, a daughter of the voice stood up and said she knew her mother had been beside her during that program. Her mother was one of my dearest friends. I sang with her in many choruses. She had the most beautiful resonating deep alto of anyone I had ever known. She died when her youngest of 9 children was 3 years old.

THat was a spiritual experience to me, but not nearly as powerful as the witness of the Holy Ghost. The mission of the Holy Ghost is to bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. When the Holy Ghost testifies to you that something is true, and you feel it from your head to your toes like a wave of warm water permeating every fibre of your being, like becoming one with the lord, like becoming part of the lord's body almost, having the holy ghost rest in you and come back again and again the same night as you pray, then and only then do you know you have had a spiritual orgasm of sorts, for lack of a better word to describe it.

Everyone is entitled to the light of Christ, or conscience, that good little imp that sits on your right shoulder and whispers what you should do. But the Gift of the Holy Ghost is different. It's more powerful, and until you experience it, you will never understand.

I had been married 25 years before I understood physical orgasm. 8 kids, good times, thought I had several, but once I had the real, I understood the rest.

I'm in my 50's. I've always been a spiritual person, and have lived my life to find favor with God. My first spiritual experience I remember vividly at the age of 4, maybe even younger. My mother's life was miraculously spared and I was comforted in my separation from her. I shall never forget the peace I felt during a time of great fear when she was 500 miles from home and there was no communication, no telephone, no email, nothing.

I've shared some pretty personal things here. I hope I haven't crossed the fine line. If I didn't love you I wouldn't have.

 

Re: trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy)

Posted by Tabitha on August 24, 2003, at 13:07:38

In reply to trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy), posted by rayww on August 24, 2003, at 9:38:11

thanks rayww.. your post gave me chills. My mom was Apostolic Pentecostal-- they put a lot of emphasis on Holy Ghost experiences. She had several, one I know involved 'dancing in the spirit' during a service, but never told me what it felt like. She was also bipolar, and I just assume the mania and spiritual experiences were probably linked, but to me that doesn't discount her experience any.

I haven't had so many spiritual experiences like that, but there were two that were distinct. One was triggered by hallucinogenic mushrooms, and one was triggered by about an hour of lap-swimming. In the first one, I had sort of a sense of God's presence, while seeing a bird's eye view of all creation. Creation was a pulsing, beautiful, living thing, like a kaleidoscope or fractal image. It was incredibly beautiful and alive, and active. I asked God 'why?' meaning why did he create all this and keep it going. I got an answer in a huge rush of love, as if God was letting me feel his love for all his creation, including me. Wow! At that time in my life I had barely felt love at all, as I had been depressed since childhood. I had no idea what a pure, generous love actually felt like. So the message was clear, all creation is a manifestation of God's love. For days afterward I felt transformed, compassionate and teary toward everything, overwhelmed by the beauty of life.

The second experience didn't have a component of the presence of God, but I just suddenly dropped into a sense of timelessness and infinite space. I was swimming, and the pool just suddenly felt as if it was a huge ocean. Time was still moving, but somehow it felt as if each moment was infinite. I felt 'altered' as I showered, dressed, got lunch, and returned to work. On the way in, I was hyper-attuned to nature, the weeds and insects buzzing in the un-landscaped part of the complex where I worked. I couldn't believe how much life was present everywhere. Then I got inside the grounds, where it was nothing but green grass monoculture, and it hurt me to see the lifelessness of it. I felt altered for about an hour, though I functioned normally during that time.

Everything else I've experienced is just tiny glimpses, moments of peace in the middle of stress. Lately I'm trying to tune into synchronicity or answered-prayer experiences though. I think that's something that happens more than I notice, so I'm trying to notice, and take a moment to be thankful, and marvel at the mechanism of life when it happens.

 

Re: trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy)

Posted by rayww on August 25, 2003, at 10:06:43

In reply to Re: trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy), posted by Tabitha on August 24, 2003, at 13:07:38

Those must have been awesome experiences for you. Your mind was certainly illuminated.

I participated in a Christian bible study group several years ago, and some very good friends from that group invited me to attend their worship services. Each member of that Bible Study worshipped the Lord Jesus Christ, and I was very curious about the similarities and differences in the spiritual experiences they were talking about. I wanted to know what was there, what spirit they felt in their meetings, and make it all fit into the same Christian scene. I remember one Pentecostal meeting in particular. There was music and dance. Everyone was standing and sort of moving to the music. It was fairly loud and exciting. Being spiritually sensitive, I was particularly interested in the spirit part of their meetings, so I tried really hard to be a part of what was happening.

The true spirit is a living entity that will continue to burn and edify and swell our understanding and faith after the meeting is over. There was definately "a" spirit and an emotional feeling in every one of the meetings. Mennonite, United, Catholic, Pentecostal. I have also attended funerals in many churches, with this same desire of discerning / discecting the spirit from emotion, and trying to feel and see from the perspective of the group.

Although there is much in common, there is a distinct difference in

 

Re: trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy) rayww

Posted by Dena on August 25, 2003, at 13:11:58

In reply to Re: trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy), posted by rayww on August 25, 2003, at 10:06:43

Raywww -

You left us hanging! Right in the middle of a sentence (I do that often when I'm talking).

I'd like to hear the rest of your thought.

Please continue.

Shalom, Dena

 

the difference and similarity Dena

Posted by rayww on August 25, 2003, at 23:45:07

In reply to Re: trying to define spiritual experience (clumbsy) rayww, posted by Dena on August 25, 2003, at 13:11:58

> Raywww -
>
> You left us hanging! Right in the middle of a sentence (I do that often when I'm talking).
>
> I'd like to hear the rest of your thought.
>
> Please continue.
>
> Shalom, Dena

:<( .....and risk getting banned again? Dena, you and I just have to learn at what point to stop writing, and sometimes the only place to stop is in the middle of a .... :<)

Dear, "very kind" Dena, what I observed was that any spiritual/emotional/excitement type feeling I had during those meetings seemed to vanish as soon as I walked out the door. It left me sort of asking, "now what? Is that all?". In fact, I felt a little unsettled, probably no different than you would feel after attending one of our LDS meetings, if you weren't used to our way of doing things.

I once attended a youth conference, where there were instructional classes offered every evening for three consecutive days. Guest speakers were invited to deliver their various youth-oriented messages, from practical to spiritual.

On the second day, a special request was made for everyone who planned on coming to the final session the following day, to come fasting and praying, and to bring their scriptures. If anyone had a bad attitude about doing so, they were invited to please stay home. (Some kids come to these things becaue their parents want them to, or else to check out who is there, and not for the right reasons). At one point in his message, the speaker asked everyone present to pause for a minute silence, and in their thoughts and hearts, invite the Savior to attend. As he proceeded, there was this feeling that came into the room. Everyone experienced it a little differently, but it was like you just wanted to stay there in your seat, and never leave. It was like a silent rushing of a gentle breeze.

After the meeting was over, and the closing hymn and prayer had been offered, no one got up to go home. That is very unusual for a group of 14-18 year olds. It was like they were all trying to absorb whatever was there inside the chapel. Gradually the youth started to file up to the front of the chapel toward the speaker to thank him for helping them experience the Savior's love, and for teaching them about him. With tears flowing, and hugs everywhere, they gradually started to leave the church. Even as I write about it, I am reminded of how it felt.

It was not a bipolar experience. It was as real as anything I have ever done. There was a power in the room that could not be denied, and all who were there went home different than when they had come.

This was the highest of all highs for me. I love the Savior, Jesus Christ. I know Him. If I was to see him face to face, I would not know any more than I do now that he lives. To me it was evidence and another witness of an absolute truth.

Now, whether this meeting was of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or of the Church of England, it matters not. This probably could happen in any group of individuals who were united in purpose, and one with God. It could happen in the ghettos of New York City, or in the slums of Mexico. It could happen in your home.

But then what? Is that all there is? No. You will be motivated to study all you can about this person called Jesus, and will try to follow his plan for happiness, and be more committed to living a Christ-centered life. There was more happiness and joy in that room that night than I have ever felt at any other time in my life.

For what reasons do Christians attend church? To worship their Lord, Jesus Christ. All are united in that similarity. So no matter what our differences in how we choose to worship, our similarities are what label each one of us "Christian".

 

Re: the difference and similarity rayww

Posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 11:43:44

In reply to the difference and similarity Dena, posted by rayww on August 25, 2003, at 23:45:07

Raywww,

Thanks for finishing your thought - & I agree, there are times to hold our peace (I belong to the slow-learner's club!).

Did you see that I managed to post my beliefs without getting myself banned? Amazing...

Your experience of sensing the presence of the Lord in that meeting was beautiful. I've had similar experiences. So rare & fleeting... such a taste of what is to come. I always want to hold on, grab it & make it stay, but it recedes in time. I suppose if it were always with us, we wouldn't need faith in order to believe. As Jesus told St. Thomas, blessed are those who believe, though they do not see. But still, I relish those delicious, almost tangible moments of sensing His presence, those mountaintop experiences.

Thanks for sharing yours...

Shalom, Dena

P.S. You called me "very kind"; is this prophetic?

 

P.P.S. rayww

Posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 11:46:54

In reply to the difference and similarity Dena, posted by rayww on August 25, 2003, at 23:45:07

Raywww,

I'm intrigued by the similarities & differences with our faiths. If there were a way, I'd enjoy further exploring them. Perhaps in direct email? I'm not sure how that would be done, or if you'd even be interested.

Just a thought...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: the difference and similarity Dena

Posted by rayww on August 26, 2003, at 22:07:54

In reply to Re: the difference and similarity rayww, posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 11:43:44

> Raywww,
>
> Thanks for finishing your thought - & I agree, there are times to hold our peace (I belong to the slow-learner's club!).
>
> Did you see that I managed to post my beliefs without getting myself banned? Amazing...

I read your testimony Dena. Yes, you did very well. Now we can discuss other aspects of Christianity, like tollerance, faith, hope, charity, etc. Oops, Christianity doesn't have a corner on those does it?
(Similarities)

>
> Your experience of sensing the presence of the Lord in that meeting was beautiful. I've had similar experiences. So rare & fleeting... such a taste of what is to come. I always want to hold on, grab it & make it stay, but it recedes in time. I suppose if it were always with us, we wouldn't need faith in order to believe.

(difference, not meant to be arrogant) I believe that after baptism one recieves the Gift of the Holy Ghost to be a "constant" companion. I have grown up "in" it, and hardly notice sometimes, or know life without it. However when I remove myself from God I feel a painful void, but I still need faith, and it grows.

As Jesus told St. Thomas, blessed are those who believe, though they do not see. But still, I relish those delicious, almost tangible moments of sensing His presence, those mountaintop experiences.
>
> Thanks for sharing yours...
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> P.S. You called me "very kind"; is this prophetic?

Hope so;) Maybe the kind ones get to go to kind heaven, and the mean ones get to go to mean heaven, the cheaters to cheaters heaven, the liars - liars heaven, the lovers - lovers heaven, haters - haters heaven, and those who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost, to the other place.
(difference with a wink)

Resurrection: difference also. In your testimony (in an above post) you mentioned your spirit living with God eternally. But I believe every person who has ever been born, and die will be resurrected to an eternal body of eternal immortal tangible flesh and bone as Christ was. As soon as we die our spirits go straight to the God who gave us life. (Paradise) From there, there is a separation between good and evil (the common Christian interpretation of Heaven and Hell) but then all are taught or teach, and continue to progress until the resurrection. The final judgement comes right before the resurrection, when the spirits of all men and women will have a second chance to gain the resurrection they have chosen by the body they have created for themselves through their own experience and accountability.

Even though there are evidences and witnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and also many seers and prophets who have witnessed through all generations of time, this is still a much doubted and debated fact. Twisted even.

I'm a believer, and so are you, even through our similarities and differences, and in spite of all the debate and defame.

 

Re: P.P.S. Dena

Posted by rayww on August 27, 2003, at 8:45:51

In reply to P.P.S. rayww, posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 11:46:54

> Raywww,
>
> I'm intrigued by the similarities & differences with our faiths. If there were a way, I'd enjoy further exploring them. Perhaps in direct email? I'm not sure how that would be done, or if you'd even be interested.
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Shalom, Dena

There are only two official Internet sites of my belief. lds.org, and mormon.org If you have questions do "not" go to sites like belief net for answers. Anti Mormon stuff gives the same feeling as the article, and it's hard to discuss because it is twisted, like some of the twisted perceptions of Christianity in general. I took the Belief net quiz and even though I scored 100% Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I found most of the questions distorted and with no exactly right answer for me.
BTW, I was really touched by your last response to Habby, and Habby's post back to you. I think it is great to be able to understand and accept differences without judgement.

my email, cmhn@opendiary.com

 

Re: the difference and similarity rayww

Posted by Dena on August 27, 2003, at 11:21:12

In reply to Re: the difference and similarity Dena, posted by rayww on August 26, 2003, at 22:07:54

Thanks Raywww, for sharing more of your faith & beliefs. Yes, we have many similarities, as well as differences.

In the end, I believe we may all be surprised at how we interpreted God's revelation to us. He does have the final say, after all. I'm grateful that He's trustworthy in His judgements, & that I don't have to try to be in charge of anything! It's hard enough to oversee the 7 little strong-willed inhabitants of my own household! (where IS that second-shift mother? when DO I get to go "off the clock"?!?)

May your own household & community be blessed with peace, safety, protection & provision this very day!

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: P.P.S. rayww

Posted by Dena on August 27, 2003, at 11:33:39

In reply to Re: P.P.S. Dena, posted by rayww on August 27, 2003, at 8:45:51

Thanks, Raywww, for sharing with me (&, apparently, the rest of the universe!) your email address. (such a trusting soul art thou!)

I will definitely check out the sites you referenced about LDS. I understand what you mean about "twisted information" - I've seem many regarding both your church & mine. (Oh, Lord God, let only YOUR truth be revealed to our hearts!)

This is my denomination's website "Click here: The International Communion of the Charismatic Episcopal Church" (hmm... I don't know if that's going to work out as a link...). I can re-send it through an email to you, as well as some more specific information, then perhaps we can chat about similarities and differences. I promise to use my new-found civility & sensitivity! Practice, practice, practice - lol!


I look forward to our explorations!

Shalom, Dena


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