Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 1301

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In the beginning

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 10:32:55

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 7:38:57

Friends,
It has been revealed to me that when the first man, Adam, was created, that God breathed into him the breath of life. And Adam thearfore had God's breath in him. Adam's [blood] had God's life in it. Adam could live forever, for there was no death then. Adam's [blood] was [God-blood].
But God placed a tree in the midst of the Garden, the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, and told Adam not to eat of the fruit of it, lest he die. And Adam ate of the fruit and this disobediance to God carried with it the curse of [death]. Now Adam's blood was changed to animal blood which could not live forever, but perish back to the dust of the ground that Adam was made from. And All of Adam's decendants have inherited earth blood also. And they all die and return to the dust of the ground.
And it has been revealed to me that we can have our [blood] changed back to the blood of God. We can have a spiritual commingeling of God's blood with our blood. A sharing of our blood with God's blood. An we will have the life of God. For it has been revealed to me that the Life is in the [blood], and this new life is Eternal Life that can not die. The old Adam man can pass away and we can have a New Man that will live forver. The New Man will be another Adam. The Last Adam. And it has been revealed to me that as in the first Adam all die, so in the Last Adam all shall be made alive and have Eternal Life.
Lou

 

In the beginning-part 2

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 10:57:34

In reply to In the beginning, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 10:32:55

Friends,
In what was revealed to me in the beginning that after Adam ate of the fruit, God called Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" And Adam answered, "I heard your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked, and I hid myself."
Then God made clothing of [skin]and clothed Adam and his wife, Eve, who also ate of the fruit.
Now it has been revealed to me that there was a killing at that time. And that time was the time of the foundation of the world. And the killing was of an animal, for the clothing was a [skin] that clothed them. An animal was slain by God. There was [blood] shed. It was revealed to me that the animal that was slain was a Lamb. For when was on the Road, the Rider said to me, "I am the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world."
Lou

 

Re: In the beginning-part 2 Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on November 28, 2002, at 14:17:21

In reply to In the beginning-part 2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 10:57:34

. It was revealed to me that the animal that was slain was a Lamb. For when was on the Road, the Rider said to me, "I am the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world."
> Lou

Lou, are you sure the Rider is not Jesus Christ?
http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/5/12#12

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=as+in+adam+all+shall+die
>And it has been revealed to me that as in the first Adam all die, so in the Last Adam all shall be made alive and have Eternal Life.
>

I seem to be missing something here Lou. Either you believe in Christ (the Rider) and don't know it, or you think the Rider is Adam. Please explain to me who you think the Rider is. (in 100 posts or less) just kidding (humor) I meant words.

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this...

Posted by NikkiT2 on November 28, 2002, at 15:29:11

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 7:38:57

So, and this is just to clear things is my mind.

Your experience is related to the Jewish faith then? I knew you were, in yourself, Jewish, but I htought maybe that was pre-Rider.
I admit to knowing little about Judaism, other than that gleaned from a jewish wedding I attended 3 years back.

I know Jews do not eat pig meat (aside from the mixing of certain foods during meals). I thought this was due to the fact they thought it unclean... Something I presumed must have come from the climate of the counties Judaism first began in, and that pig can contain more "nasties" than other meat if left in the warm for long.
Could you tell me more about the food restriction please.

Sorry to badger you with questions!!! I think this is an incredibly interesting topic to dicuss!!

Nikki

 

Lou's reply to rayww's post rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 17:34:30

In reply to Re: In the beginning-part 2 Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 28, 2002, at 14:17:21

rayww,
Thank you for your interest in this discussion. In order to answer some of your questions, I would like to share some things that may help in our understanding in this discussion.
First, the Rider is not the world's jesus. But one needs to understand about that name and who people are referring to when they referr to jesus.
The bible has been translated from the Hebrew and the Greek languages into the Latin and English translations that use the word,[jesus].
Originally, [jesus] grew up in a Jewish community in a Jewish family. His name in Hebrew was [Yahushua]. In Hebrew, there are two words here. Yahu and shua. Yahu, in Hebrew, means [God] and shua in Hebrew means [saves]. So Yahushua means, in Hebrew, God-Saves. So in the Christiandom bible,that originally was written inthe ebrew language, in the description of the birth of jesus, the angel came to Mary and Joseph and said at the birth that you will call his name [Yahushua], as it is witten in the Hebrew. Which has been interrpreted as, [God saves us,] or [God is with us], or [Salvation is with us], or just [salvation]. Then Yahushua was shortened in the Hebrew to Y'shua. Then the ['] was replaced by [e] and became [Yeshua]
Then this name had to be trtansliterated into the Greek language .
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 2

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 17:47:44

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww's post rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 17:34:30

rayww,
Now the translation of Yeshua to Greek becomes problematic, for the letters do not interchange from Hebrew to Greek. There is no letter in Greek for the sound [y] or [sh].
Iota and Eta are two Greek letters that sound as [eeay] and [sh] used the letter Sigma. So the best transliteration of Yahushua, or Yeshua, in Greek was eeaysooah. Now it is my understanding that an [s] also had to be added on the end in the Greek under these circumstances of the ah ending , and became [eeaysooahs]. Judah in the Hebrew becomes Judas in the Greeek.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 3

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 17:56:33

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 17:47:44

rayww,
Now around 1600 years ago, the Greek bible , that was translated from the Hebrew, was translated into Latin. There was no [j] then. So the Greek, eeaysooahs, was rendered [Iesus].
Then around the time of the printing press in around 1500, the J was established and the Greek Iesus, which came from the Hebrew, Yeshua,or Yahushua, was printed as [jesus]. Men with the name Yohan were now called John.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 4

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 18:04:07

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 3, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 17:56:33

rayww,
So now the Hebrew name of the biblical person that the angel said to His parents to call Yahushua, or Yeshua, became [jesus] in the English about 400 years ago or so. When he was a child growing up, his teachers at school called Him Yeshua, or Yahushua when He raised His hand to answer a question. He did attend school and was taught to be a Rabbi.
But what about the name, jesus [Christ]? Was Yeshua's last name Christ?
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 5

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 18:16:06

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 4, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 18:04:07

rayww,
The word [christ] is an English word that is translated from the Greek word,[christos].
Christos is a Greek word that is translated from the Hebrew word,[mashiach].
Mashiach, in Hebrew, means [the anointed one]. Messiah, means [the anointed one](the Mashiach)
So [Jesus Christ] means [Jesus the anointed one].
So in Hebrew, [Jesus Christ] is Yeshua the anointed one. Or, [Jeshua the Messiah]. In Hebrew, the word [the] is [ha].
So Jesus Christ , in the Hebrew, is [Yeshua Ha Mashiach] or Yeshua the Messiah,or [Yeshua the Anointed One]
Lou

 

Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 6

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 19:42:01

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww's post -part 5, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 18:16:06

rayww,
Now I have identified the Rider on the White Horse as The Word of God.
It has been rvealed to me that The [Word]of God is the part of God that is the intelligence of God. It is also called the Logos of God, Logos being intelligence. And where there is intelligence, there is speech. Animals do not have speech like humans do, for they lack that type of intelligence that I am referring to here.
And it was revealed to me that when God created the heavens and the earth, he [spoke] them into existance. He said, "Let there be light", and there was. God spoke evrything into existance [by His Word]
Now in the beginning, the word was [with] God. And the Word was God. All things were made [through] Him.
Now it has ben revealed to me that God can come down to this planet in different forms. One form of God is in the form of a person. And the Rider on the White Horse is God in the form of a man. But He is The Word of God, that part of God that is part of His personality, his Logos, his intelligence. He speaks! He feels! He sees! He loves! He does miracles! He goes back and forth to Heaven! He enlightens! He reveals The Father! He reveals the Father as He is [now]! He says that without the Father He can do nothing! He says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. And that they can also be in us, and we can be in Him.
Now the Word of God has made many appearances to others, not just me. But only those that recieve Him, can decern Him, for He is Spirit.
Later, the word became flesh , that could die. I have not explained what has been revealed to me about the Word becomming flesh yet.
Lou

 

In the beginning-part 3

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 29, 2002, at 21:12:34

In reply to In the beginning-part 2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 28, 2002, at 10:57:34

Friends,
After Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden, Eve gave birth to Cain and Able.
Now they both offered sacrifices to God. Able offered a Lamb and killed it to offer its [blood] to God.
Then Cain murders his brother ,Able, and Able's blood is mixed with the [blood of the lamb].
Blood is now connected to sacrifice.
Lou

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2002, at 7:58:07

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this..., posted by NikkiT2 on November 28, 2002, at 15:29:11

NikkiT2,
The dietary restrictions to Jewish people have spiritual implications.
The Rider in my experiance did not change my Jewishnss. In fact, in my experiance the Rider said to me, "I have come to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel." And later, He said that He has come to seek all of the other lost sheep, for "all we like sheep have gone astray."
In my experiance, there is no jew or non-jew. There is no male or female. There is no this race or that race. There is no this ethnos or that ethnos.
Lou

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... Lou Pilder

Posted by NikkiT2 on November 30, 2002, at 9:57:06

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2002, at 7:58:07

Lou,

What I am interested in, is the spritual reasons for not indulging in certain foods. I understand how they may have come about, but I don't understand the current thinking as to why these foods are not allowed under Judaism.
I understand what makes a food item kosher or not (all butchers etc near me are kosher), and I can understand why they only eat kosher meat.

But I don't understand why certain foods are not allowed. Could you explain this to me, as basically as possible cos my brain is on holiday I think!!

Thanks Lou

Nikki

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2002, at 11:19:05

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on November 30, 2002, at 9:57:06

NikiT2,
The dietary restrictions to the Israelites are part of a covenant relationship with God. The physiological attributes to the restricted animals are secondary to the covenant.
There is a proposed post by me that would be restrained by Dr. Bob, that involves my covenant relationship with my God. Thearfore, I do not want to post my answer to your question, for it [could] also be deemed by Dr. Bob to involve my covenant relationship with my God in a manner that could also be considered by Dr. Bob to be restrained. I would like to answer your question, but the restraints of the board could restrict me in this regard.
Best wishes,
Lou

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... Lou Pilder

Posted by NikkiT2 on November 30, 2002, at 13:23:28

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on November 30, 2002, at 11:19:05

I'm just really interested in WHY they have these restrictions... as long as you don;t say others should follow this path, I can't see where the problems would be.

I understand its part of a covenent with God, but I would like to nderstand why these things were put into place from a theological point of view.

Nikki

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2

Posted by Dinah on November 30, 2002, at 16:04:17

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on November 30, 2002, at 9:57:06

I'm not Lou, but I looked it up in my "Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary". It seems that the idea is that "Blood is the life force in living creatures."

This is repeated in Genesis 9:4 "You must not, however eat flesh with its life-blood in it" which is interpreted as meaning that an animal must first be slaughtered before eating it.

Deuteronomy 12:23-25 states "But make sure that you do not partake of the blood; for the blood is life, and you must not consume the life with the flesh. You must not partake of it; you must pour it on the ground like water: you must not partake of it, in order that it may go well with you and with your descendents to come, for you will be doing what is right in the sight of the Lord."

Leviticus 17:10-14 states "And if anyone of the house of Israel or the strangers who reside among them partakes of any blood, I will set My face against the person who partakes of the blood, and I will cut him off from among his kin. For the life of the flesh is the blood, and I have assigned it to you for making expiation for your lives upon the altar; it is the blood, as life, that effects expiation. Therefore I say to the Israelite people: No person among you shall partake of blood, nor shall the stranger who resides among you partake of blood. And if any Israelite or any stranger who resides among them hunts down an animal or a bird that may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of all flesh - its blood is its life. Therefore I say to the Israelite people: You shall not partake of the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Anyone who partakes of it will be cut off."

The commentary includes the following "These rules... rest on the premise that slaughtering animals for food should never be a callous or a casual act. The Torah inculcates in us a horror of shedding blood, even the blood of animals. It would seem that, for the Torah, vegetarianism is the human ideal (see Genesis 1:30, 9:1-7), and that eating meat, taking the life of a living creature for our dinner, is a concession to human appetite."

And at Deuteronomy, the commentary includes "We are commanded to cover the blood of the slaughtered animal (Lev. 17:13) to inculcate in us a sense of ambivalence for having taken an animal life to satisfy our appetites."

Hope this helps.

Dinah

 

Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... Dinah

Posted by NikkiT2 on December 1, 2002, at 11:38:48

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2002, at 16:04:17

Thanks for that Dinah.

I still don't understand the reason its OK to eat certain meats, but not others.. say, its OK to eat Beef but not Pork. And why you can't eat (I think thi sis right, but I maybe wrong) cow and chicken products int he same meal.

Nikki x

 

Re: dietary restrictions NikkiT2

Posted by Dinah on December 1, 2002, at 23:43:58

In reply to Re: Lou.. I'd really like your thoughts on this... Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on December 1, 2002, at 11:38:48

Let me preface this by saying that I am not of the Jewish faith, and so may have misunderstood certain aspects of the traditional explanations behind the dietary restrictions outlined in Leviticus 11.

Mammals are allowed to be eaten only if they have both completely cloven feet (so that the paw does not touch the ground) and if they chew their cuds. A pig has cloven hooves but does not chew its cud. There is some speculation that these prohibitions were sanitary in nature, since pigs carry more disease than cows. But my understanding is that traditional Jewish thought holds that the separation of animals into allowable and non-allowable is another attempt to make us reflect on the eating of meat, since a life must be taken in order for us to eat meat. By sanctifying the eating of meat, we do not take it lightly.

The birds that are considered non-allowable are mainly birds of prey or scavenger birds. Since the eating of blood is forbidden, perhaps that has something to do with the prohibition, since those birds would have presumably consumed blood of other animals. Water creatures are only allowed if they have fins and scales, which leaves out shellfish and catfish. Most insects, reptiles, and rodents are not allowed. In Leviticus, eating these creatures if frequently referred to as an abomination.

Leviticus 20:25 reads "So you shall set aside the pure beast from the impure, the impure bird from the pure. You shall not draw abomination on yourselves through beast or bird or anything with which the ground is alive, which I have set apart for you to treat as impure. You shall be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy, and I have set you apart from other peoples to be Mine."

It is dairy and meat which must not be served together. This comes from Exodus 34:26 "You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk." My understanding is that this was considered a delicacy at the time. I believe Jewish thought is that eating meat involves a sacrifice of a life, and that eating the deceased animal with the milk meant to nourish it and give it life was considered to be especially insensitive to that fact. The rule was broadened, as was frequently the case, as a sort of fence around the biblical prohibitions, so that none would be accidentally broken.

In general, the Jewish traditions involve elevating the mundane to the sacred. For example, eating is an ordinary event, animals eat without thought. But humans can make the act of eating a sacred one by giving thought and holy overtones to what one is doing.

Again, forgive me if I have not gotten the spirit or the facts correct in this. My sources range from the "Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary" (which was the source of the biblical quotes) to "To Life!" by Rabbi Kushner, to vaguely remembered ideas from college religion classes, and a lot in between. I freely admit that I may be mistaken in my understanding, and I wish those of you who practice or study Judaism would correct any misperceptions on my part.

Dinah

 

Re: dietary restrictions Dinah

Posted by NikkiT2 on December 2, 2002, at 1:51:28

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 1, 2002, at 23:43:58

Thanks for that Dinah.. has certainly helped... I undersdtand the basis for the restrictions.. pig's carrying more disease etc, and I just wonderred how it was justified to modern Jews!

My only expereince with Judaism was a Jewish wedding I attended a few years back - wow, what a lavish affair - a once in a lifetime thing for me, one of the top hotels in london, food and champagne coming out of everywhere... truly was quite amazing!! And the ecremony ws great.. luckily we had been ne-friended by a young jewish couple, so they explained all the stuff during the service, and what leads up to the wedding service etc... was really interesting.. espeicaly as my husband and myself were serpareted for the service (men on one side, women on other!!)!! The Rabbi that took the service is the highest ranking female Rabbi in the UK.. she's an amazing woman, and I would have loved to have sat down with her and had a good chat!!!

Its strange that, even though I have no strong religious beliefs myself, other peoples convictions fascinate me!!

Thanks again

Nikki xx

 

Re: dietary restrictions

Posted by coral on December 2, 2002, at 8:47:34

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on December 2, 2002, at 1:51:28

Dear Nikki:
I'm not Jewish. However, as I understand it, the religious leaders were society's leaders (as was true for many religions). Some religious Jewish leaders realized that people were becoming sick from eating spoiled meat and/or soured milk. People would save the milk until they had meat or vice versa. Since religious laws were obeyed more readily than any others, the religious leaders forbade people from eating dairy products with meat, resulting in people eating fresher food. Again, as I understand it, maintaining the practice today is considered evidence of practicing one's faith or keeping one's covenant with God.
I apologize to any I may have offended if I am incorrect.

 

Re: dietary restrictions coral

Posted by NikkiT2 on December 2, 2002, at 8:52:29

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions, posted by coral on December 2, 2002, at 8:47:34

Thanks.. I understand the reasons behind it, ie the bad meat... but I just want to know, from a jew, how this is qualifie din todays society.. what they are taught as to why they must not eat this in order to follow their religion...

nikki

 

Re: dietary restrictions

Posted by ayrity on December 3, 2002, at 1:00:51

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions coral, posted by NikkiT2 on December 2, 2002, at 8:52:29

Dinah's comments are right on-target. (Yes, I'm Jewish)

There are many seemingly burdensome and detailed rituals in Jewish religious obsevance. As Dinah wrote, the purpose of these is to sanctify all of life's activities and make them special and holy. If you search hard enough, in Judaism there is a blessing for just about everything you can imagine. This is the reason for the continuance of these obsevances, even though the original reasons (i.e. hygienic reasons for some dietary restrictions) have long since become obsolete. Another reason for these observences may have been to maintain and preserve the Jewish community from assimilation- until recently, Jews had to live close together as a community in the same areas to obtain kosher meat, be in walking distance from synagogue (driving is prohibited on the Sabbath), etc.

Some dietary restrictions have symbolic significance. A common practice among pagans in bibilical times was the boiling of lamb in milk; so as to separate Jews symbolically from "non-believers" the mixing of milk and meat was prohibited. Other restrictions have no logical explanation. Health reasons may or may not have played a role in the banning of swine as food, but this does not necessarily explain the prohibition against shellfish, fish without scales (eels) or non-ruminant quadripeds, etc. The Torah does not explain why these foods are banned, only that it is forbidden to eat them. The simplest explanation is that these restrictions are simply G-d's will and a means to an end- a way to sanctify life and provide a routine and ritual to everyday events in order to set them apart and remind one of the holiness of all of life's events, from the little moments to the big ones.

I'm no expert but I hope this helps.

 

Re: dietary restrictions ayrity

Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2002, at 19:09:12

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions, posted by ayrity on December 3, 2002, at 1:00:51

I'm glad I got it right. :)

Although I'm not Jewish, I have immense respect for Judaism and have tried to incorporate the basic principle of bringing God into the world by sanctifying the ordinary and by acts of loving-kindness. I'm trying to convince my husband that a Sabbath blessing of the children can fit into our Protestant observance of the Sabbath, although I think he's a bit self-conscious.

But it has largely been self-study on my part. And so I'm relieved to know I have gotten the basic concept.

Dinah

 

Re: dietary restrictions

Posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 18:17:43

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions ayrity, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2002, at 19:09:12

Nikki, here are some web resources that you might find interesting, with perspectives on Kashrut (the laws and practices of dietary restrictions).

http://www.njop.org/html/Newsletters_and_articles.html#a3

http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

http://www.kashrut.com/articles/soul_food/

 

Amazon link for 'To Life! (Kushner)' Dinah

Posted by Jonathan on February 8, 2003, at 0:19:15

In reply to Re: dietary restrictions NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 1, 2002, at 23:43:58

> ....
> Again, forgive me if I have not gotten the spirit or the facts correct in this. My sources range from the "Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary" (which was the source of the biblical quotes) to "To Life!" by Rabbi Kushner, to vaguely remembered ideas from college religion classes, and a lot in between. I freely admit that I may be mistaken in my understanding, and I wish those of you who practice or study Judaism would correct any misperceptions on my part.
>
> Dinah

"To Life! (Kushner)"

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/9114.html explains why this works.


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