Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 617

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I would love to... Susan G

Posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 23:32:35

In reply to Re: Wellllllllll....., posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 18:07:06

I would really love to give you my opinion/belief on the matter, but would have to do so in chat, I suppose. It's been made fairly clear that the "road" that us Christians choose is not that of which to be talked about on this Faith Board. I'd be more than happy to tell you how I feel (in more depth). I've already posted "what I believe" without much detail on another thread (it might have been archived?). Perhaps we can set a date for chat?

 

Re: I sure wish I could answer that...

Posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:30:35

In reply to Re: I sure wish I could answer that... mair, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 23:17:34

Dinah, since you have done that research would you give me a quick overview of thought on this? I'm still counting votes here.

You're the best! :)

 

Re: I sure wish I could answer that...

Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2002, at 9:34:32

In reply to Re: I sure wish I could answer that..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:30:35

I'd rather answer that off board, Susan. You can message me and I'll explain why.

 

Re: I would love to...

Posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57

In reply to I would love to... Susan G, posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 23:32:35

SandraDee, I would love to talk with you about this in chat. I pop in there most evenings around 7:00 PM our time (Pacific). My schedule is erratic lately so I'm hesitant to set a date and then not show up. How about if we just look for each other?

I don't really want to get into all this but I don't see why it isn't possible to just say here, "The _________ faith believes that if you take your own life you will rot in hell" or whatever. Would that work? If not, no worries, I'll just see you in chat.

Sue

 

Dr. Bob's policy... Susan G

Posted by SandraDee on July 23, 2002, at 10:21:53

In reply to Re: I would love to..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57

apparently says we can't say stuff like that. At least that's the impression I've gotten. I do not want to risk getting blocked by saying stuff like what you quoted. I am not trying to be difficult, just trying to abide by some of these not-so-clear rules. I don't know if you've been following admin... but God help us all.. whew.
I'll look for you in chat... (we might be going swimming tonight, so probably not tonight :( sorry).

 

Redirected: I don't see why it isn't possible

Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 11:17:31

In reply to Re: I would love to..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57

> I don't really want to get into all this but I don't see why it isn't possible to just say here, "The _________ faith believes that if you take your own life you will rot in hell" or whatever.

Good question... I've responded at Psycho-Babble Administration:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020627/msgs/6595.html

Bob

 

Re: Dr. Bob's policy...

Posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 12:03:32

In reply to Dr. Bob's policy... Susan G, posted by SandraDee on July 23, 2002, at 10:21:53

I responded to Dr. Bob on Admin since he directed me there.

If anyone else has an answer to my question and you feel like taking the time, please just email me at imsusang2 at yahoo dot com.

Thanks for all who responded.

Sue

 

That's How I Answered It - It Worked Fine Susan G

Posted by fachad on July 23, 2002, at 12:46:02

In reply to Re: I would love to..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57

>I don't see why it isn't possible to just say here, "The _________ faith believes that if you take your own life you will rot in hell" or whatever. Would that work?

It worked for me, and nobody complained. Take another look my post:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020715/msgs/623.html

 

Re: A question - a few answers fachad

Posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 13:42:27

In reply to Re: A question - a few answers Susan G, posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 15:21:40

Catholic view from the catechism section 2283

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the oppurtunity for salutary repentance. The church prays for people who have taken their own lives.

I'm not a catholic but I trust in the infinite mercy of God.

 

pleading insanity?

Posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 14:05:02

In reply to Re: A question - a few answers fachad, posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 13:42:27

A little more from the catechism (2282)

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibiity of the one committing suicide.

I want to know how to tease out the psychological disturbance from sin. (Are we allowed to mention sin here?) Most of my life is lived under the influence of anguish fear psychological disturbance, etc. How much is me and how much is the depression? Is there really a difference?

 

In a state of total confusion

Posted by Angel Girl on July 23, 2002, at 14:11:34

In reply to I would love to... Susan G, posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 23:32:35

> I would really love to give you my opinion/belief on the matter, but would have to do so in chat, I suppose. It's been made fairly clear that the "road" that us Christians choose is not that of which to be talked about on this Faith Board. I'd be more than happy to tell you how I feel (in more depth). I've already posted "what I believe" without much detail on another thread (it might have been archived?). Perhaps we can set a date for chat?


Seems I must go and read the Admin board. I thought that THIS board was created to talk about faith issues, was it not????

I'm not trying to cause any problems or to diss anyone, but if Lou can talk about his experiences, then why can't anybody else????

What have I missed??? Are there rules posted somewhere that I'm not aware of???

I thought as long as you weren't trying to recruit, then you could talk about your faith in whatever manner you wanted.

I'm so confused. Anybody care to fill me in please?

Confused Angel

 

Re: pleading insanity? OddipusRex

Posted by krazy kat on July 23, 2002, at 15:56:07

In reply to pleading insanity?, posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 14:05:02

Thanks for the info! To be honest, it makes me feel a little "better" about the Catholic church as I always disagreed with the view that suicide=damnation.

My pdoc once said "It's the depression talking, not you." I thought that summed it up well. When gets truly suicidal, something takes over. Call it Satan, call it a scientific malady - whatever. But one does not think clearly - obviously. So it has never made sense to me to codemn a person because they acted out on something that really had nothing to do with who they were at all...

Just my thoughts...

 

Re: A question - a few answers - Yipee! OddipusRex

Posted by fachad on July 23, 2002, at 20:22:16

In reply to Re: A question - a few answers fachad, posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 13:42:27

> Catholic view from the catechism section 2283

Yipee! I love it when references are documented!

I will say that despite my disagreements with their teachings and practices, the Catholic Church has always been strong in the scholarship department.

Just wondering...Does the Catholic Church put date stamps and revision numbers on their printed documentation?

I would venture to guess that this "slack" for suicides is a more recent rev. and that the older versions were more damning.

 

Re: so confused

Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 0:06:06

In reply to In a state of total confusion, posted by Angel Girl on July 23, 2002, at 14:11:34

> > It's been made fairly clear that the "road" that us Christians choose is not that of which to be talked about on this Faith Board.
>
> Seems I must go and read the Admin board. I thought that THIS board was created to talk about faith issues, was it not????

It was. But if someone says their road is the only "right" one, then I'm afraid those on other roads might feel put down, so I'd like people to keep *those particular* beliefs (if they have them) to themselves (while they're here; there are of course other forums in which faith issues can be discussed more freely).

Bob

 

Re: so confused

Posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 0:15:44

In reply to Re: so confused, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 0:06:06

> It was. But if someone says their road is the only "right" one, then I'm afraid those on other roads might feel put down, so I'd like people to keep *those particular* beliefs (if they have them) to themselves (while they're here; there are of course other forums in which faith issues can be discussed more freely).
>
> Bob


Thanks so much....I'm glad this board is a place of *support*.


Kiddo

 

Re: so confused kiddo

Posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 10:45:54

In reply to Re: so confused, posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 0:15:44

The message seems to be: feel free to talk about christianity, what it means to you, the ways it has supported you, or *could possibly* support others, but don't tell *me* (or imply) that if I am not a Christian, that I can not feel the same level of support, love from God, path of righteousness, return to heaven or whatever, through a different religion/faith/"way", EVEN if you believe that to be true.

I think that's what is best for everybody, even if it's not *best* for you. And I think you can give and receive a lot of support within those parameters.

Hopefully, the concept is applied equally to all posters and their "beliefs", regardless of whether the beliefs are religious, spiritual or delusional in nature.

 

Mercy and revisions in the Catholic Church/Fachad

Posted by Mashogr8 on July 25, 2002, at 11:12:56

In reply to Re: A question - a few answers - Yipee! OddipusRex, posted by fachad on July 23, 2002, at 20:22:16

In reply to your earlier statement that if there were a God how could He let the person suffer so much that the individual was forced to kill himself/herself. Personally, I believe that that is exactly the way he helps them. They have not been able to see an end to their pain. Some have tried for years. Not existing is the only way for them. Giving them that choice is God's way of letting them out of their pain rather than continuing to go through the pain. Could that not be the ultimate act of mercy?

My experience with the Catholic Church does indicate that there are revisions of certain ideas. The Tenets of the faith do not include suicide condemning one to damnation. However, I was always taught (40-50 years ago) that one who needed to end life had committed the biggest sin of all. They despaired as Judas did when he hung himself after leading the soldiers to Jesus. Despair meant total rejection of God and his help. My thoughts as a little person had always been what if Judas's last thoughts were I'm sorry. I was told God was merciful. one plus one equaled forgiveness to me.

Since Vatican II in the late '60s and early 70's I believe, ideas presented to the people became more of a responsiblity of the person not a listing of offenses that could be counted. It became an issue to see that there was justice in the world and in an individual's life -- kind of like love the sinner not the sin and change what can be changed. Suicide and even "extreme means" in hospitals were reviewed. Illness can be controlled and life should be cherished but there is a point where the means out way the outcome. What good is it for a family to have to care for a loved one in a coma forever because feeding tubes exist and allow the individual to exist in a vegetative state sometimes robbbing the family of their income. In the case of suicide, it is the illness, the irrational part of the person, which makes that choice. I believe that God is forgiving, merciful and understanding. I think if one believes in a God that it is impossible to know what He feels following such an act of supreme desperation. I am more convinced of that than ever since I attended the funeral of a 14yr. old boy this past February. There is no way God could damn him. That child did not know what he was doing. He was in extreme agony and felt there was no help or hope left for him. I believe that that child was rescued from his hell on earth. I wish with all my heart for his family and wonderful friends who miss him dearly that medication and hospitalization could have been more helpful. I wish he had had the years of experience that I have had and I would expect most of those who haave attempted suicide have had that things do change eventually. Maybe not fast enough. They do change. Depression says it won't, but it will. A person will not feel that way forever. Sometimes that is all an individual has to keep him here on earth.

MA

 

Re: so confused kiddo Lini

Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 12:03:28

In reply to Re: so confused kiddo, posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 10:45:54

Lini:

I know what you're saying and actually agree with you. But I don't think that's possible. I think that this board needs to become a "faith" board where only broad concepts can be discussed and religion has to be left out of it according to Dr. Bob's feelings. Or it needs to be "canned". Is that kind of what you meant? The concept of only one way to 'heaven' is the central belief of Christianity, Islam, Jewish beliefs (I think - please correct me if I'm wrong), Buddhism... there's no way to discuss one's religion without that being there, even if it's not stated. Unless we can state "I believe" or "my beliefs are" (leaving out direct statements such as "you will go to hell), this cannot be a "religious faith" board. I asked Dr. Bob to consider changing its title and writing a disclaimer at the top, but he did not respond.

I actually believe in many roads to wherever we're going. And I would love to discuss both theology and philosophy, but it's not going to happen here because discussion is frowned upon.

Because no one belonging to the Islam faith has posted here, or maybe a Buddhist or such, it *seems* as if Dr. Bob is targeting Christians. And he hasn't really made the Christians here feel any better about it.

What was your faith - B'hai? Did I spell that correctly? Now, see, I'd love to hear more about that. And Wiccan, etc. But we can't post Anything Anyone could take as a put-down, and most religious faiths have strict rules which tell one just what one needs to do to get to heaven, to live a righteous life, etc.

This is a no win situation for all. IMHO. And this is a good example of why I, and some others, have hard a tough time here lately. And it's hard to let go, because the site was a good place for us before... it's sad.

- K.

P.S. I find your posts very insightful.

 

Since you asked,,,, krazy kat

Posted by Dinah on July 25, 2002, at 13:53:50

In reply to Re: so confused kiddo Lini, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 12:03:28

By my best understanding and straight out of the mouth of a Rabbi, the Jewish faith does not believe that their road is the only route to "salvation".

I once talked to a Rabbi about becoming Jewish, although my family is Christian. He told me that Jewish thought places peace in the family at a higher premium than which church I went to to worship God.

 

Jewish ideals... Dinah

Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 16:18:22

In reply to Since you asked,,,, krazy kat , posted by Dinah on July 25, 2002, at 13:53:50

Believe it or not, I found that I very much agreed with several Rabbi's who post on beliefnet.com. I only say "believe it or not" because we are such different people, Dinah. It's kind of funny. They had such insight and "told it like it was". And the focus on family - very important to me. Catholicm also focuses on family from my experiences...

Thank you for clarifying the salvation concept, for others as well. The site may very soon be rid of the "dissenters". :) I, at least, am finally off.

- KK

 

Re: Jewish ideals...

Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2002, at 11:39:29

In reply to Jewish ideals... Dinah, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 16:18:22

> Believe it or not, I found that I very much agreed with several Rabbi's who post on beliefnet.com. I only say "believe it or not" because we are such different people, Dinah. It's kind of funny.

I've taken a while to respond to this, kk, because I wanted to try to figure our whether you meant the rabbis and you were such different people, or if you and I were such different people. If you mean the latter, then I would gently disagree with you. How different can two crusading dog lovers really be? We might differ on what justice is, but we don't differ that it's worth fighting for. If I pulled back in my friendship with you, it is because I felt, from your final email to me and a few subsequent posts, that that was what you wished. I, as always, wish you peace and happiness.

Dinah

 

Re: Oops. Above was meant for Krazy Kat. (nm)

Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2002, at 11:40:02

In reply to Re: Jewish ideals..., posted by Dinah on July 27, 2002, at 11:39:29

 

Belated Thanks

Posted by Susan G on July 28, 2002, at 11:26:07

In reply to A question, posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 13:26:23

I just read Mair's post on social where she mentions posters who start a thread and sometimes don't acknowledge and thank those who responded. It made me realize that I hadn't done so here. I do appreciate all the responses and apologize for not saying so sooner. Thanks

 

Re: Very well written and thought through, KK! (nm) krazy kat

Posted by Ron Hill on July 29, 2002, at 1:28:32

In reply to Re: so confused kiddo Lini, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 12:03:28

 

How about this?

Posted by waterlily on August 30, 2002, at 22:33:50

In reply to A question, posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 13:26:23

The following is a thought to chew on as I do not claim to know for sure about anything related to God:

According to "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch, in which he claims to have had the books dictated to him by God (hey, why not?), God says that your afterlife (which every soul has) is an extension of the consciousness in which you die. In other words, what you think, happens. If you think you will experience heaven, you will. If you think you will experience the opposite, you will. Of course, you can always change your 'mind' and when you do, you will instantly experience that state of mind. That is unlike in the realm of relativity (the 'mortal' world - as opposed to 'heaven', the realm of the absolute) in which the time between what you think and what you experience is much longer. Since in the realm of the absolute you are all goodness and are surrounded by it, there exists no opposite. In order to experience yourself as good, you voluntarily relinquish memory of heaven and enter our world, the realm of the relative, to 'remember' yourself and become in the relative what you were in the absolute. God is then all loving and does not punish anyone for anything. He likens it to putting your children out in the playground. You hope they won't get hurt, but you know you've put them in an environment that is very 'okay' and will let them make their own decisions about how to play. God has given us free will. We experience the natural results of our actions, even if they are painful. He never punishes us though. At one point, he even says that if there were such thing as 'sin' it would be to allow yourself to be what you are because of what others think of you.

I'm sorry that was all jumbled. This whole thing is so complicated that I cannot do it justice in such a short format. I'm not saying it's right. It makes since to me. If nothing else, reading the books, available in libraries, will give you food for thought.


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