Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 727

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You guys are great...

Posted by SandraDee on July 26, 2002, at 10:18:02

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist, posted by Phil on July 25, 2002, at 23:36:46

Thank you very much. I was just wondering if the general idea out there was that you do not have to be baptized to be "saved". And it seems that overall most churches believe that.
I don't believe you have to go to church every Sunday (or Saturday) to have a relationship with God. I go because I get taught there, and for the fellowship (well, okay, and they usually have treats after sermon too!).... Thanks again to everyone... any others??

 

Re: You guys are great... SandraDee

Posted by Dinah on July 26, 2002, at 11:47:48

In reply to You guys are great... , posted by SandraDee on July 26, 2002, at 10:18:02

Sandra, I guess I never did answer the question about baptism as it relates to salvation.

My current church believes that baptism is merely a symbol of the consecration of a child to God. It is a symbolic recognition of the relationship with God that every person is born with. So under my current (Christian) church's guidelines, baptism is not necessary for salvation. God takes care of that himself.

 

Re: A Baptized Buddhist Mark H.

Posted by Ritch on July 27, 2002, at 22:32:23

In reply to A Baptized Buddhist, posted by Mark H. on July 25, 2002, at 21:30:10

> In the Episcopal Church, you are considered "saved" not by any action of your own whatsoever but by the actions of Jesus Christ on the Cross two thousand years ago. The act of Baptism, whether as an infant or in confirmation as an adult, seals your soul to the living Christ and his church.
>
> As a practicing Vajrayana Buddhist of the Tibetan Nyingma school, I still enjoy an active and eternal relationship with the risen Jesus, even though I have long ago abandoned His church and its beliefs -- beliefs that to me violate His teachings and spirit and intentions.
>
> I'm glad I was baptized as an infant and bound thereby to a tradition larger than myself and my immediate family. I think that is important, regardless of the religion into which we are born.
>
> We have traditions similar to baptism in Vajrayana Buddhism, and for the same reasons. I believe there is a universal truth that threads its way through all legitimate religious and spiritual paths.
>
> Thank you for asking.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Mark H.
>
>

Hi everybody,

I never have posted here before, but I am fascinated with the discussion. Just an observation, but it seems that Christianity and Buddhism seem to be the most similar of world religions.

Mitch


 

Hello Mitch, Welcome Ritch

Posted by SandraDee on July 28, 2002, at 9:22:56

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist Mark H., posted by Ritch on July 27, 2002, at 22:32:23

I too thought this was interesting. Coming from the Catholic church - I always had the idea that I was saved because I was baptized as a baby.
When I went to my first Christian church, I learned differently, and I just FELT that what they taught was in my heart.
Thanks for joining the discussion. :) Hope to 'see' you around.

 

Re: Can I ask a question about baptism?

Posted by Medusa on July 30, 2002, at 9:44:56

In reply to Can I ask a question about baptism?, posted by SandraDee on July 25, 2002, at 11:27:37

I was baptised in my parents' pond at the age of 10. It started raining right afterward, and the pastor's wife chose a hymn I hated. My younger sister was allowed to choose, whether to be baptised or not, but I had no choice and we went through pre-baptism bible study together with our parents' pastor.

I was really upset about being baptised, I thought it was supposed to mean something and for me it as sure as heck was not something I could do sincerely.

I know some people who've had un-baptism ceremonies following their deconversions, but I don't know if that would be helpful or not. Just deconverting in itself was cleansing.

 

What's deconverting? Medusa

Posted by mair on July 30, 2002, at 12:51:51

In reply to Re: Can I ask a question about baptism?, posted by Medusa on July 30, 2002, at 9:44:56

Excuse my ignorance....


Mair

 

Re: Thank you for all those that have responded!

Posted by shar on July 30, 2002, at 21:14:15

In reply to Thank you for all those that have responded!, posted by SandraDee on July 25, 2002, at 19:57:08

I don't know for sure, but I believe I was sprinkled. Probably as a baby.

I think in my family there were religious things that one did: baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage. As a protestant in the military, folks had the option of going to church 'in town' or if the base was large enough, going to church on base. So, if someone went on base, they took what they could get.

My parents were Methodist, but I was confirmed a Lutheran (in Martin Luther's church) in Germany, after attending classes on base. They used real wine in the communion, that was a shock!

The one protestant chaplain I recall most clearly was the one that made me decide that the church was not for me, and never would be. Nasty, nasty man. Thoroughly disliked children, and would humiliate them quite readily, in public. He let it be known far and wide that we were not forgiven for any of our faults, and that Jesus was perfect (tho as an adult, I can see he was not), and we were damned. No matter how hard we tried, it did not count for anything.

Since then. Well, I just haven't met many people representing churches who really mean it when they say "everyone is welcome." What they really mean is "everyone is welcome as long as after a certain period of time they adhere to our system of thoughts and beliefs."

However there is a church where I live that does accept a lot of diversity in the congregation. I've thought about going there.

But, the bottom line, is that they do expect you to believe and buy into the Jesus/God thing. Trinity. That there is a god. Guess that's what keeps me home.

There is a great lady on tv, Joyce Meyer, who is pretty traditional, and I enjoy her sermons because she is very down to earth. She talks about Jesus/God/Devil and all that, and she clearly believes...but she also believes that god will bless those who live in faith, that there is an up side, not just fear. She is cool. I see her a lot because of insomnia (she is on at like 4:30 a.m.). When I last saw her, she was sermonizing about the buffet approach to religion that exists today, where people get to pick and choose their beliefs. She was pretty good, funny, too.

Oh, well, there I go rambling again.

Shar

 

Re: Hello Mitch, Welcome SandraDee

Posted by Ritch on July 30, 2002, at 23:03:49

In reply to Hello Mitch, Welcome Ritch, posted by SandraDee on July 28, 2002, at 9:22:56

> I too thought this was interesting. Coming from the Catholic church - I always had the idea that I was saved because I was baptized as a baby.
> When I went to my first Christian church, I learned differently, and I just FELT that what they taught was in my heart.
> Thanks for joining the discussion. :) Hope to 'see' you around.

Hi,

I just checked this and forgot that I even posted anything! My parents never attended church very much. My earliest church memory was being at a Lutheran church daycare center. I always wound up going to church with my friends not my parents. My best friend in junior high was baptist, so I went to a super conservative Southern Baptist church for a while. I remember the charismatic preacher talking about Hell being hotter than most propane conflagurations, etc. I was quite mesmerized by the sermon. There was a guy in our youth group that had been smoking grass for a few months and wore pot leaf patches all over his jean jacket in church (it was a riot-it was of course in the early '70's). He later confessed in front of the church about all of his pot sins and stopped wearing his pot leaf jackets and .. quit smoking pot. Most of my friends after that time were Catholics. But they never had any inclination to ask me to go to church with them! My exposure to Buddhism was when I read "Be Here Now" by Baba Ram Dass (Dr. Richard Alpert-Timothy Leary's cohort). It was given to me by my best friend's girlfriend who was living in a commune at the time. I really got into that one. Perhaps too much. That was when I saw the similarities between Christianity and Buddhism.

Mitch

 

Re: What's deconverting?

Posted by Medusa on July 31, 2002, at 6:14:33

In reply to What's deconverting? Medusa, posted by mair on July 30, 2002, at 12:51:51

Not ignorant at all.

I don't know if "deconversion" is actually a word. If "conversion" is the process of accepting a set of religious doctrine, then for me, "deconversion" was the process of realizing that the set of doctrine to which I'd previously subscribed was incoherent.

Does that explain?

> Excuse my ignorance....
>
>
> Mair

 

What's deconverting? So That's What It's Called!

Posted by fachad on July 31, 2002, at 9:48:40

In reply to Re: What's deconverting?, posted by Medusa on July 31, 2002, at 6:14:33

I've had quite a few massive "deconversions" in my life.

I guess you could say I'm a devout deconverter.

I'm going to put that as my religion in the next questionnaire I get that asks for my religion and has a space for "other, specify".

-fachad

**********************************************


> Not ignorant at all.
>
> I don't know if "deconversion" is actually a word. If "conversion" is the process of accepting a set of religious doctrine, then for me, "deconversion" was the process of realizing that the set of doctrine to which I'd previously subscribed was incoherent.
>
> Does that explain?
>
> > Excuse my ignorance....
> >
> >
> > Mair
>
>

 

Re: What's deconverting? So That's What It's Called!

Posted by Medusa on August 1, 2002, at 9:16:20

In reply to What's deconverting? So That's What It's Called!, posted by fachad on July 31, 2002, at 9:48:40

> I guess you could say I'm a devout deconverter.

Heh, then there are all of the sub-denominations of deconverters ... personal-individual deconverters, evangelical deconverters, de-baptising-by-sprinkling deconverters, de-baptising-by-immersion deconverters, General Association of Regular Deconverters ...

 

Re: Can I ask a question about baptism?

Posted by karla on August 11, 2002, at 22:58:22

In reply to Can I ask a question about baptism?, posted by SandraDee on July 25, 2002, at 11:27:37

I was baptised as a baby in the Catholic church by sprinkling of holy water and in the titles "The name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". As a married adult at the age of 28 my husband and I decided after indebth bible study to be baptised in Jesus name by complete immersion. Ten years latter my husband is now a minister and has even baptised people in lakes although it is normally done in the baptismal tank at the church(where water is heated). Our missionary friend in Antigua baptises in the ocean or a local swimming pool. It is wonderful how Baptism can leave us so clean inside and how great it feals to be barried in baptism only to be born a new creature in Christ.

> Is that allowed?
> How/When were you baptised, if you were at all? How old were you? Was it in a church baptismal with just a little water on your head, or was it a complete dunking? Was it in a nearby lake?
> Don't feel pressured to answer, just a curiousity question and it is open to all.
>
> Personally, I was baptised as a baby in the Catholic church with a little water dripped on me. About 5 years ago I was baptised again through a local church at a lake nearby - completely dunked by the pastor and it was incredible. I truly felt like I left the "old self" there and felt really great. Not just because the water was freezing hahaha.

 

Re: A Baptized Buddhist

Posted by onehandcoding on August 15, 2002, at 17:47:06

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist Mark H., posted by Ritch on July 27, 2002, at 22:32:23

Christianity and Buddhism are two different things. Buddhism does not recognize the existence of a creator god. Buddhists as a whole have never engaged in any type of 'holy war' or the imperialist-expansionist crusades that Christianity has waged since time immemorial.

 

Re: A Baptized Buddhist onehandcoding

Posted by Ritch on August 15, 2002, at 22:31:27

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist, posted by onehandcoding on August 15, 2002, at 17:47:06

> Christianity and Buddhism are two different things. Buddhism does not recognize the existence of a creator god. Buddhists as a whole have never engaged in any type of 'holy war' or the imperialist-expansionist crusades that Christianity has waged since time immemorial.
>
>

Thanks for the info. I always tend to see the (perhaps rare and few) similarities between seemingly different things. Thanks for pointing out those differences. I would be interested in a more detailed contrast/comparison between the two religions, if you wouldn't mind letting us know.

Mitch

 

Re: A Baptized Buddhist

Posted by onehandcoding on August 15, 2002, at 23:09:12

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist onehandcoding, posted by Ritch on August 15, 2002, at 22:31:27

> Thanks for the info. I always tend to see the (perhaps rare and few) similarities between seemingly different things. Thanks for pointing out those differences. I would be interested in a more detailed contrast/comparison between the two religions, if you wouldn't mind letting us know.
>
> Mitch
>
One of the cornerstones of Buddhism is that personal 'salvation'/redemption is directed inward and focuses on the concepts of ego and a 'self' being separate from others, as illusion.

Another major point is that Buddhism does not recognize the existence of a 'soul', which is definitely a major concern in Christianity.

Yet another major difference is the Buddhist belief that we go through a countless number of lives.

The really cool concept in Buddhism is that of the bodhisattva, which is a highly realized, enlightened being who, although he/she has become enlightened and is fully entitled to enter Nirvana, chooses to continue returning to the cycle of birth-and-death (samsara) in order to help others. Bodhisattvas were actually the subject (and title) of a Steely Dan song, interestingly enough.

 

Re: A Baptized Buddhist onehandcoding

Posted by Ritch on August 16, 2002, at 10:33:15

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist, posted by onehandcoding on August 15, 2002, at 23:09:12

> > Thanks for the info. I always tend to see the (perhaps rare and few) similarities between seemingly different things. Thanks for pointing out those differences. I would be interested in a more detailed contrast/comparison between the two religions, if you wouldn't mind letting us know.
> >
> > Mitch
> >
> One of the cornerstones of Buddhism is that personal 'salvation'/redemption is directed inward and focuses on the concepts of ego and a 'self' being separate from others, as illusion.
>
> Another major point is that Buddhism does not recognize the existence of a 'soul', which is definitely a major concern in Christianity.
>
> Yet another major difference is the Buddhist belief that we go through a countless number of lives.
>
> The really cool concept in Buddhism is that of the bodhisattva, which is a highly realized, enlightened being who, although he/she has become enlightened and is fully entitled to enter Nirvana, chooses to continue returning to the cycle of birth-and-death (samsara) in order to help others. Bodhisattvas were actually the subject (and title) of a Steely Dan song, interestingly enough.
>
>


Thanks for that information. Just one more little question... If Buddhists do not recognize a soul, but one is capable of multiple rebirths, what is the "essence" of a life called, if not a soul?

I like the concept of a Bodhisattva, too. How would one "choose" to remain in samsara?

thanks,

Mitch

 

Re: essence of life = buddha nature (nm) Ritch

Posted by .tabitha. on August 16, 2002, at 15:20:32

In reply to Re: A Baptized Buddhist onehandcoding, posted by Ritch on August 16, 2002, at 10:33:15

 

Re: essence of life = buddha nature .tabitha.

Posted by Ritch on August 16, 2002, at 21:10:00

In reply to Re: essence of life = buddha nature (nm) Ritch, posted by .tabitha. on August 16, 2002, at 15:20:32

Tabitha,

I meant the essence of *a* life, not essence *of* life in general. Can you clarify further?

thanks,
Mitch

 

Re: essence of life Ritch

Posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 0:02:51

In reply to Re: essence of life = buddha nature .tabitha., posted by Ritch on August 16, 2002, at 21:10:00

One of the main precepts if buddhism is that separateness is an illusion. Then again, there's the concept of karma, and reincarnation, which is sort of an acknowledgement that people exist as individuals beyond one lifetime.

I don't have a better answer than that I'm afraid.

 

thanks anyhow Tabitha (nm)

Posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 10:10:55

In reply to Re: essence of life Ritch, posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 0:02:51

 

Re: Now you got me curious, so Ritch

Posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 15:23:59

In reply to thanks anyhow Tabitha (nm), posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 10:10:55

I found this.

http://www.geocities.com/scimah/mindandsoul.htm

It's a comparison of the Christian concept of soul vs Buddhist concept of mind.

Happy pondering.

 

Re: Now you got me curious, so .tabitha.

Posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 18:17:26

In reply to Re: Now you got me curious, so Ritch, posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 15:23:59

> I found this.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/scimah/mindandsoul.htm
>
> It's a comparison of the Christian concept of soul vs Buddhist concept of mind.
>
> Happy pondering.


Well, that was certainy interesting. So.... Buddhists believe that when you die there is a remnant and that remnant is called "The Very Subtle Mind". Evidently they don't distinguish anything but the material world and the Mind. The Mind can get stuck on attachments and false beliefs (delusions). The difference between Christians and Buddhists on the "afterlife" is that Buddhists believe it is an extract of the Mind we have right now. Christians believe there is a separate entity from the Mind and the Body, called a Soul that exists only while we are alive and after we die (not before). Buddhists appear to place great value on understanding the ultimate Reality of things with the Mind. Christians don't seem to be nearly as obsessed with the contemplation of an ultimate Reality, but with saving their individual soul instead (which is different from the Mind). Thanks for that link. Interestingly, I have got "Little Buddha" playing on TV in the background while I am thinking and reading about this. I think the Lama in the movie talked about our "essence" as "all the same tea", or something like that. Hmmmm. The story of Siddhartha (the young Buddha) is neat. I wonder if Herman Hesse's "Siddhartha" would be a good read for the book club? Never read that one.

Mitch

 

Re: Siddhartha Ritch

Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 18:47:40

In reply to Re: Now you got me curious, so .tabitha., posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 18:17:26

Not a bad book as I recall... (required reading in college)

 

Re: Siddhartha Dinah

Posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 21:47:26

In reply to Re: Siddhartha Ritch, posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 18:47:40

> Not a bad book as I recall... (required reading in college)

The only Herman Hesse book I have read was "The Glass Bead Game (Magistar Ludi)" back in the '80's.

Mitch

 

Re: Can I ask a question about baptism? SandraDee

Posted by gloryb on August 28, 2002, at 10:47:53

In reply to Can I ask a question about baptism?, posted by SandraDee on July 25, 2002, at 11:27:37

This is interesting for me to answer :)!

I was first taken by my mother to the Lutheran
church where I assume I was baptized by pouring.
(Churches which baptize babies usually use
pouring, not sprinkling). I converted to
Catholicism in my twenties and the priest
at the time said he didn't know if my
baptism was valid so he did it again.

Then I spent some years in a Baptist church
and to join, guess what! I had to do it again!
This time it was immersion. Now I decided to
worship with my husband and I'm back in the Catholic
Church, and I'm grateful I didn't need a
fourth baptism :)!

Turns out I never needed the second one as the
Catholic Church now says that any baptism in
water in the "name of the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit" is a valid baptism. But I know that
Baptists do not consider anything but immersion
to be valid. It is interesting to note that the
Catholic Church prefers immersion but doesn't often
do it because of the problem of building baptistries
for the few adults baptized.

I did like the immersion baptism and the "amen"
from the congregation. I also liked last year
at the Catholic Church when I went to the Easter
Vigil with the choir and watched the group
baptizing of new people. It was by pouring
over adults, and there was singing of hallelujah
and they were clothed with white robes afterward.
I liked both of these forms of baptism as the
people were choosing it. I'm not against infant
baptism, but it just is nice to see people
make a choice.

One thing's for sure---I'm baptized :)!!!!


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