Psycho-Babble Alternative Thread 789228

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:06

Ive found that treatment for obstructive sleep apnea with CPAP, combined with testosterone, is far superior to any psychiatry drug I ever tried. I found out that my blood oxygen was desaturating down to 84% in a sleep study. A lung doctor put me on CPAP and for the first time in ten years I had dreams and restorative sleep.

My brain was succumbing to hypoxia during my sleep and none of my psychiatrists could figure it out.

I dont understand why so many people with refractory "depression" continue trying psych drug after psych drug. If you have failed ten medications...get a clue and use your brain...it probably aint pure depression. Either a medical condition is causing or exacerbating your problem...or your diagnosis is wrong.

Oxygenate your brain...get screened for sleep apnea. Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel aggressive and assertive, blasting away any remaining "depression."

A lot of "treatment resistant depressions" are misdiagnosed medical problems.

Eric

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by stargazer2 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:07

In reply to Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 11, 2007, at 0:54:26

> Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel aggressive and assertive

Until your voice changes, your boobs start developing, and other parts start to wither away...enjoy your run!

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants stargazer2

Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:07

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by stargazer2 on October 11, 2007, at 11:00:36

Don't you also grow a mustache? Phillipa

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by alan2102 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:07

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by stargazer2 on October 11, 2007, at 11:00:36

>
>
> > Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel
> > aggressive and assertive
>
> Until your voice changes, your boobs start
> developing, and other parts start to wither
> away...enjoy your run!

Physiologic testosterone replacement usually
does not cause feminization. The bodybuilder
guys who use huge doses and multiple
steroids ("stacking") have that problem.
In any case it is possible to block
aromatase with aromatase inhibitors, to prevent
this (testosterone to estrogen conversion).

Alan


 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by alan2102 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:07

In reply to Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 11, 2007, at 0:54:26


> A lot of "treatment resistant depressions" are
> misdiagnosed medical problems.

There's a lot to this. Thyroid function and
hypometabolism are a big one, too (and cannot
be reliably diagnosed with blood tests).

vis:


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/160/1/105

Am J Psychiatry 160:105-111, January 2003

2003 American Psychiatric Association

Article

Testosterone Gel Supplementation for Men With Refractory Depression: A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial

Harrison G. Pope, Jr., M.D., Geoffrey H. Cohane, B.A., Gen Kanayama, M.D., Ph.D., Arthur J. Siegel, M.D. and James I. Hudson, M.D., Sc.D.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: Testosterone supplementation may produce antidepressant effects in men, but until recently it has required cumbersome parenteral administration. In an 8-week randomized, placebo-controlled trial, the authors administered a testosterone transdermal gel to men aged 3065 who had refractory depression and low or borderline testosterone levels. METHOD: Of 56 men screened, 24 (42.9%) displayed morning serum total testosterone levels of 350 ng/dl or less (normal range=2701070). Of these men, 23 entered the study. One responded to an initial 1-week single-blind placebo period, and 22 were subsequently randomly assigned: 12 to 1% testosterone gel, 10 g/day, and 10 to identical-appearing placebo. Each subject continued his existing antidepressant regimen. Ten subjects receiving testosterone and nine receiving placebo completed the 8-week trial. RESULTS: The groups were closely matched on baseline demographic and psychiatric measures. Subjects receiving testosterone gel had significantly greater improvement in scores on the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale than subjects receiving placebo. These changes were noted on both the vegetative and affective subscales of the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale. A significant difference was also found on the Clinical Global Impression severity scale but not the Beck Depression Inventory. One subject assigned to testosterone reported increased difficulty with urination, suggesting an exacerbation of benign prostatic hyperplasia; no other subject reported adverse events apparently attributable to testosterone. CONCLUSIONS: These preliminary findings suggest that testosterone gel may produce antidepressant effects in the large and probably underrecognized population of depressed men with low testosterone levels.

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by alan2102 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by alan2102 on October 11, 2007, at 12:01:08


SNIPPET from the AJP study posted above:

"[T]hese findings may have important consequences for public
health. In a given year, about 8% of American men over the age of
30 years exhibit major depressive disorder (35), and many of these
cases will be partially or completely refractory to an adequate
trial of antidepressant medication (16). If this subgroup with
refractory depression has a 43% prevalence of low testosterone
levels, as found in the present study, then hundreds of thousands
of men in a given year might at least theoretically be candidates
for testosterone supplementation to treat depression."

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants LostBoyinNCBecksDark

Posted by Sigismund on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 11, 2007, at 0:54:26

>it probably aint pure depression

What's pure depression?

Is it what you have when you've ruled out everything else?

Please educate me.

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by stargazer2 on October 11, 2007, at 11:00:36

>
>
> > Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel aggressive and assertive
>
> Until your voice changes, your boobs start developing, and other parts start to wither away...enjoy your run!
>
>

Stargazer, low testosterone is a common contributer to male depression. I really dont like posting on these boards anymore, here or elsewhere. But since I am here I will try to point some things out for you.

First, if you have low testosterone and expect any of these antidepressants to work halfway well for you, you are well, not so smart.

The aromatizing issue from testosterone can be dealt with if you know what you are doing. Mood swings from testosterone shots can be largely prevented by doing more frequent shots (weekly) with smaller dosages.

If you have tried a whole bunch of medicatons with no success, expand your mind. THINK! It may not entirely be mental illness. It may be a combination of mental illness with a medical condition like low testosterone, obstructive sleep apnea, thyroid problems, type II diabetes, etc. etc. etc. Rotating from one psych med to another for years as so many do is stupid and benefits nobody.

Eric AKA LostBoyinNC

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants LostBoyinNCBecksDark

Posted by Maria3667 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 11, 2007, at 18:18:12

Hi Eric,

What I'm about to say is probably very controversial, but I find your claim holds true for WOMEN too...

How do I know?
Because I've been diagnosed with low testosterone levels for female sexual dysfunction. So my sexuologist prescribed LOW DOSE Androgel(testosterone gel). Like you said, it blew away my depression!

Before anyone starts barking at me: IT WAS LOW DOSE & UNDER SUPERVISION OF A PROFESSIONAL.

No moustache, cracking voice, hairy limbs whatsoever.

The only side effect worth mentioning was weight gain (sigh...). Hence I ... you've probably guessed it by now, quit.

My best,
Maria

> >
> >
> > > Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel aggressive and assertive
> >
> > Until your voice changes, your boobs start developing, and other parts start to wither away...enjoy your run!
> >
> >
>
> Stargazer, low testosterone is a common contributer to male depression. I really dont like posting on these boards anymore, here or elsewhere. But since I am here I will try to point some things out for you.
>
> First, if you have low testosterone and expect any of these antidepressants to work halfway well for you, you are well, not so smart.
>
> The aromatizing issue from testosterone can be dealt with if you know what you are doing. Mood swings from testosterone shots can be largely prevented by doing more frequent shots (weekly) with smaller dosages.
>
> If you have tried a whole bunch of medicatons with no success, expand your mind. THINK! It may not entirely be mental illness. It may be a combination of mental illness with a medical condition like low testosterone, obstructive sleep apnea, thyroid problems, type II diabetes, etc. etc. etc. Rotating from one psych med to another for years as so many do is stupid and benefits nobody.
>
> Eric AKA LostBoyinNC
>
>

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants alan2102

Posted by Squiggles on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by alan2102 on October 11, 2007, at 12:09:12

Hormones are very potent substances, producing
profound changes in emotional and mental
states. If the testosterone is too high, in
an already inherently passive aggressive individual, the wrong dose may result in violence,
rage, and anti-social behaviour. Paradoxically,
severe depression with rage can result from
stopping them, and there are other side effects,
which might make you wonder if they are worth
the risk, even though they may dramatically turn
depression around, just like cocaine does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

I would be suprised that doctors actually use
testosterone for depression, except in pathological endocrinology.

Squiggles

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by Squiggles on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by alan2102 on October 11, 2007, at 12:09:12

Here is a good article on anabolic steroids:ecreational drugs.


Psychiatric Complications of Anabolic
Steroiod Abuse, Ryan C. W. Hall, M.D.,
Richard C. W. Hall, M.D., and Marcia
J. Chapman

in PSYCHOSOMATICS
...............

"Current data suggest that AAS abuse can increase aggression and cause rage, delirium, depression, mania, psychosis, and withdrawal symptoms. Psychiatric symptoms are seen at greater frequency with increasing doses of AAS. After discontinuation of AAS use, most psychiatric sequelae resolve within 8 weeks. Animal data suggest that taking anabolic steroids alters multiple neurochemical pathways. Use of AAS can lead to criminal behavior, such as drug abuse, as well as to assault and homicide that can be random and senseless."

http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/46/4/285

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants Squiggles

Posted by Netch on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by Squiggles on October 12, 2007, at 8:17:46

Yes, no surprise really. Some younger men would for sure be better off with lower testosterone levels.

/Netch

 

question for Maria

Posted by brooke484 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants LostBoyinNCBecksDark, posted by Maria3667 on October 12, 2007, at 4:24:05

I also have low testosterone and was put on 5 mg of methyltestosterone for 4 months. It didn't do anything and the Free testosterone only went up a little bit. I eventually stopped taking it. My question is, how long did it take before you noticed it was working? My doctor said he might try the Androgel next.

Thanks.

 

Re: question for Maria brooke484

Posted by Maria3667 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

In reply to question for Maria, posted by brooke484 on October 12, 2007, at 20:15:26

Brooke,

Methyltestosterone, isn't that something used by the bodybuilding community to gain mass/muscle?

To say the truth: I never asked if Free Testosterone went up. The results of the blood test were sent to my sexuologist and he said the blood work was okay.

Libido changes happened in about the 3rd week. THat's to say, I started noticing a difference. Great improvement wasn't felt until week 6 (and continued on from there). Depression also miraculously disintegrated from week 3 onwards.

Eventhough I only used half the dose usual for men, I started to gain weight quite rapidly. If this isn't one of your problems, good for you. I'd certainly try Androgel if you are having sexual issues.

Good luck!
Maria

> I also have low testosterone and was put on 5 mg of methyltestosterone for 4 months. It didn't do anything and the Free testosterone only went up a little bit. I eventually stopped taking it. My question is, how long did it take before you noticed it was working? My doctor said he might try the Androgel next.
>
> Thanks.

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by alan2102 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:09

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by Squiggles on October 12, 2007, at 8:17:46

> Here is a good article on anabolic
> steroids:ecreational drugs.
> Psychiatric Complications of Anabolic
> Steroiod Abuse, Ryan C. W. Hall, M.D.,
> Richard C. W. Hall, M.D., and Marcia
> J. Chapman
>
> in PSYCHOSOMATICS
> ...............
>
> "Current data suggest that AAS abuse can
> increase aggression and cause rage, delirium,
> depression, mania, psychosis, and withdrawal
> symptoms.

So they say. Only problem is, those things are
rare, and infrequent even in guys who are taking
ridiculously huge doses of them.

There was a great steroid hysteria that took
hold in the late 1980s, and throughout the
90s. Side effects (which there are, sometimes)
became wildly exaggerated, groundless fears
were repeated and re-repeated ad nauseum, etc.
A lot of these hyper-cautious medical papers
are based on attitudes (and even falsehoods)
that came up during that era.

Recall that prevailing medical opinion denied,
for decades, that anabolic steroids enhance
athletic performance! That was repeated by many,
many top figures. It was embarrasing. Everyone
knew it was a lie -- especially the guys who
were actually taking the stuff.

Likewise, the scares about steroid toxicity
and side effects were blown up wildly. If
anything, the infrequency of serious (or even
any) side effects in bodybuilders dosing
themselves with this stuff -- even in the
largest doses imaginable, of multiple
steroids at once -- stands as evidence of
their relative safety. I've read a lot about
the "stacking" schedules that these guys
undertake, and it is hard to believe that
they do not have more side effects than they
do, given the extreme, intemperate doses
that they use.

Yes, anabolic steroids CAN cause problems. I am
not suggesting otherwise, and I am not
encouraging anyone to embark on strange,
potentially risky pharmacologic ventures,
as do the competitive bodybuilders. It is
just a matter of keeping things in perspective,
and paying attention to realities rather than
(sometimes hysterical) claims.

In contrast to the bodybuilders and their
extreme dosing and combination schedules,
the use of **physiologic** (low) doses of
testosterone, as replacement or supplemental
therapy, is attended with almost no risk.

Alan

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants alan2102

Posted by Squiggles on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:09

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by alan2102 on October 13, 2007, at 13:56:23

Speaking as a layman, i would not know
from direct experience; my beloved tabby
died a horrible death, after being given
prednisole. I think he got psychotic and
became a crazy alley cat. From a friend's
experience, even a low dose needs months of
tapering off.

As i said, in cases of endocrinological diseases,
such as clinically low testosterone, it makes sense to supplement.

But in the case of sports such as body-building,
football, boxing, and endurance sports, you might
wonder who takes it, how much, and what kind of supervision these people get, especially in the case of illegal supplies. Then there is the recreational use, which runs the same risk of street drugs.

Squiggles

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by alan2102 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:09

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants alan2102, posted by Squiggles on October 13, 2007, at 15:23:31

> Speaking as a layman, i would not know
> from direct experience; my beloved tabby
> died a horrible death, after being given
> prednisole. I think he got psychotic and
> became a crazy alley cat. From a friend's
> experience, even a low dose needs months of
> tapering off.

For the record: apples and oranges. Prednisone
is a glucocorticoid, a catabolic steroid class,
and no (pharmacologic) relation to the
anabolic steroids such as testosterone.

These can be very nasty drugs indeed, if taken
often or in significant quantity. They suppress
immunity, break down healthy tissues, derange
metabolism, and cause other mischief. Bad stuff.

I am sorry about your loss. I too am a cat-lover.

> But in the case of sports such as body-building,
> football, boxing, and endurance sports, you might
> wonder who takes it, how much, and what kind
> of supervision these people get, especially in
> the case of illegal supplies.

They get no supervision.

On the other hand, some of them are incredibly
knowledgeable. From time to time I peruse their
chat boards, and I swear some of these guys are
self-made steroid (and other) pharmacologists,
with very sophisticated knowledge. In other
words, some of them are capable -- more
capable than any doctor -- of supervising
themselves.

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants alan2102

Posted by Squiggles on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:09

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by alan2102 on October 13, 2007, at 19:28:48

> They get no supervision.
>
> On the other hand, some of them are incredibly
> knowledgeable. From time to time I peruse their
> chat boards, and I swear some of these guys are
> self-made steroid (and other) pharmacologists,
> with very sophisticated knowledge. In other
> words, some of them are capable -- more
> capable than any doctor -- of supervising
> themselves.
>
>

Say no more. :-)

If only we had "heads" for antidepressants--
i guess the closest reference is BLTC.
But, I think they are knowledgeable academically,
not by experience AND knowledge of chemistry.


Squiggles

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 19, 2007, at 19:40:06

In reply to Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:06

> Ive found that treatment for obstructive sleep apnea with CPAP, combined with testosterone, is far superior to any psychiatry drug I ever tried. I found out that my blood oxygen was desaturating down to 84% in a sleep study. A lung doctor put me on CPAP and for the first time in ten years I had dreams and restorative sleep.
>
> My brain was succumbing to hypoxia during my sleep and none of my psychiatrists could figure it out.
>
> I dont understand why so many people with refractory "depression" continue trying psych drug after psych drug. If you have failed ten medications...get a clue and use your brain...it probably aint pure depression. Either a medical condition is causing or exacerbating your problem...or your diagnosis is wrong.
>
> Oxygenate your brain...get screened for sleep apnea. Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel aggressive and assertive, blasting away any remaining "depression."
>
> A lot of "treatment resistant depressions" are misdiagnosed medical problems.
>
> Eric

There is a fundamental difference between using testosterone under a doctor's care (legal prescription) for formally diagnosed hypogonadism and the illicit "anabolic steroid abuse" commonly found in sports and the bodybuilding communities. Guys in sports and bodybuilding have normal testosterone levels and seeking better recovery from frequent and intense workouts and increased aggressiveness...they turn to anabolics.

The result is testosterone levels way way over what is considered normal...with the resulting "roid rage" and crazy behavior stereotyped with testosterone usage.

That is NOT what I am using testosterone for!

My testosterone levels are below normal, determined by repeated AM bloodwork and confirmed by three Medical Doctors.

There is no man anywhere on this planet who has low testosterone and is healthy physically or mentally. Low testosterone in men has been proven to cause mood disorders, extreme problems with fatigue and just generally feeling bad. No antidepressant in the world will help depressed men with low testosterone...in fact most antidepressants used alone will make testosterone levels even lower.

Trying to treat a depressed male to who is hypogonadal to remission with psychiatry meds will fail every time.

Also, the gels and patches that are FDA approved for hypogonadism are not designed to get testosterone levels in the "high" or even "high normal" ranges. These gels and patches usually only push testosterone levels to low normal or normal ranges in most low T males...hardly turning them into "psychos" or overly aggressive individuals. Its usually only the unsupervised usage of illegal and recreational injectable steroids that leads to roid rage and steroid psychosis/mania.

Like I said, people need to open their minds to new things. If psychiatry meds dont work for you...there is probably a good reason. Or possibly several reasons combined. Continuing to try one similar psych med after another almost never works, is expensive, costly to the patient in both time and energy spent and is demoralizing. It can also be dangerous as clinical depression unsuccessfully treated usually leads to chronic disability.

Failing to search out other problems that can be causing or exacerbating a mood disorder is negligence and psychiatric malpractice.

Eric

 

Re: Why was this string moved to 'alternative?'

Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 19, 2007, at 19:47:27

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 19, 2007, at 19:40:06

There is plenty of mainstream research showing strong relationships between sleep apnea and depression. There is also a lot of literature out there that points out a strong relationship between poor mood and low testosterone and TRT can reverse male depression. All the TRT websites list depression or mood problems as one of the symptoms of hypogonadism.

Why was this string sent to alternative? You can hardly call these alternative treatments for depression. I consider "alternative" to mean stuff like acupuncture, herbal medicine, snake oil salesman products, yoga, etc. CPAP is mainstream, not alternative and TRT is also mainstream...hardly "alternative" medicine.

Eric

 

Re: Why was this string moved to 'alternative?'

Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 19, 2007, at 19:55:03

In reply to Re: Why was this string moved to 'alternative?', posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 19, 2007, at 19:47:27

CPAP is FDA approved for treatment of obstructive sleep apnea. This is hardly an "alternative" form of medicine. Androgel, Testim, Striant and the various patches are FDA approved for Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) in males with hypogonadism. This is not "alternative" medicine!

Alternative medicine are OTC herbs and vitamins, acupuncture, yoga, magnets...stuff like that.

This post was moved to the wrong location.

Eric

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants LostBoyinNCBecksDark

Posted by George Halas on October 23, 2007, at 22:36:00

In reply to Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:06

LostBoy, I am very interested in having my testosterone levels checked. I believe that this could be a source of my depression and I am struggling to find a doctor who will take this seriously.

First, what type of Test replacement therapy are you using, i.e. gel, patch, oral? What dosage? HOw long before you felt effects on your mood?

Also, how did you find a doctor who took this seriously?

Thanks for your reply

> Ive found that treatment for obstructive sleep apnea with CPAP, combined with testosterone, is far superior to any psychiatry drug I ever tried. I found out that my blood oxygen was desaturating down to 84% in a sleep study. A lung doctor put me on CPAP and for the first time in ten years I had dreams and restorative sleep.
>
> My brain was succumbing to hypoxia during my sleep and none of my psychiatrists could figure it out.
>
> I dont understand why so many people with refractory "depression" continue trying psych drug after psych drug. If you have failed ten medications...get a clue and use your brain...it probably aint pure depression. Either a medical condition is causing or exacerbating your problem...or your diagnosis is wrong.
>
> Oxygenate your brain...get screened for sleep apnea. Testosterone boosts mood and makes me feel aggressive and assertive, blasting away any remaining "depression."
>
> A lot of "treatment resistant depressions" are misdiagnosed medical problems.
>
> Eric

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by aminos4me on November 3, 2007, at 23:21:13

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by stargazer2 on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:07

>A lot of "treatment resistant depressions" are >misdiagnosed medical problems.

>Eric

Tell me about it!

After 10 SSRIs, a few anti psychotics and mood stabilizer trials...
I turned out to be ADD...

Within 24 hrs of beginning Dex amphetamine i transformed into a human doing, not just a human being!

If repeated med trials aren't working, work a different angle peeps!

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants George Halas

Posted by Sigismund on November 9, 2007, at 18:33:48

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants LostBoyinNCBecksDark, posted by George Halas on October 23, 2007, at 22:36:00

>how did you find a doctor who took this seriously?

Look for a holistic type doctor......it shouldn't be too hard to find one who will test for it (apart from doing other stuff).

We have a few such doctors around here.

Most are GPs who have done a diploma in nutritional medicine.

 

Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants

Posted by elanor roosevelt on January 1, 2008, at 23:29:16

In reply to Re: Anabolic steroids superior to antidepressants, posted by Squiggles on October 14, 2007, at 17:17:08

another messy side effect from over-use of steroids is death


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