Psycho-Babble Administration Thread 1100606

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Re: dr bobs activity is illegal

Posted by ert on October 3, 2018, at 7:23:03

In reply to Re: dr bobs activity is illegal, posted by ert on September 24, 2018, at 9:14:17

even though the permission is given to him, it does not mean for eternity eg. when somebody revokes the permission of his/her copyright. With this policy he violates intellectual property and privacy rights and if he does not respect someones claim this is intellectual property theft and not blackmail but coercion.

There were some other people who don't like the policy here who wrote comments in the nytimes article:


Harry
ChicagoApril 20, 2010
Indeed, Dr. Bob's message board is an "experiment" -- and nobody should become a member of it unless they want to be studied by a man who forgot to get his own university's IRB approval before publishing his first study on the community. A study, by the way, that he also didn't mention to anyone in his community until after-the-fact. Conducting research on fellow human beings without their explicit knowledge or consent is questionably ethical. This is the same guy who has his photo on every page. I think you can piece together the full picture from such information.
5Recommend
Levetation
AtlantaApril 20, 2010
I prefer sites that advocate for the rights and safety of people with mental health issues such ashttp://www.worstpills.org/.You can also get their reference book at Amazon. There is also an excellent set of databases athttp://www.cchrint.org/psychdrugdangers/.Both these sites are not connected with psychiatrists or drug companies and work for patients rights and education.
1Recommend

Thanks Dr. Bob.
Joanna
2Recommend
Multi-Forum User
MassApril 19, 2010
Clearly the author decided that best way to review the site is to talk to the site owner, and review a few posts on one of several boards there. Perhaps talking to/emailing some of the users may have helped? Perhaps you could have looked at the declining site stats? Or talk to others in the business? This site is dying a not-so-slow death. It has been for years.

Yes, this is the only place to go for peer info on psych meds. But I'd go ANYWHERE else. The civility rules include blocking posters for up to a year. That means taking away contact with their supportive friends for a year. And some of these people have impulse control issues that cause them to act out and get blocked. Posters have pleaded with Bob for years to limit blocks.

And his disappearing acts! We never know when he'll just go *poof* and be gone. And btw, there are ZERO volunteer administrators currently because of this problem, and others. Bob has treated posters disrespectfully for years. The Twitter debacle is classic Bob-ness. No warning. He just opened our Babble posts to Twitter. It was ironed out eventually, but it caused vast numbers of posters to leave ship.

And the posters suicide mentioned earlier? Bob never contacted her family to ask if it was OK for him to publish her heartfelt Babble posts in his related journal article, lectures, etc. He had their contact information. Clearly, he earned money. He never mentioned donating that money to her family or anywhere else.

Seriously, this article is an extremely inaccurate portrayal of PsychoBabble.
5Recommend
south west dude
Yuma, AZApril 19, 2010
Reading this site it seems to be a how to in choosing meds and treating oneself without the assistance of a doctor. Often these meds are not approved for use in the US. I think this is an unwise practice, especially in a complex field like psychiatry.
1Recommend
weezilgirl
TexasApril 19, 2010
When I joined the site, Bob listed the University of Chicago as being connected with Babble. After I had been there long enough to question Bob's administrative actions, 4 members joined me in notifying the university about the "connection" . We wrote, emailed and spoke to staff members in the president's office. We were told that the university did not know that Bob had used their name on the site. Bob removed their name. He is listed now as sole owner of Babble.
2Recommend

sydferret
t or cApril 18, 2010
Anyone who sees a psychiatrist should have their head examined!

-someone else
2Recommend
weezilgirl
TexasApril 18, 2010
All that glitters is not gold.

I joined Babble when I needed help from someone who had experienced problems with withdrawal from a med that I was trying to quit. I received great help from the Babble posters. I am very pleased.

After I had been a member for awhile, I noticed that some rules and regulations were hard to understand. For instance there are "civility" rules that Bob insists the posters use. Civility is a great attribute to have regardless of where you are or what you're saying. But it appears to me that in general the civility rules are floating around in Bob's head. It is difficult to understand what would or would not pass as civil by Bob.For instance a long time member said the s word and was banned for a year. I believe that the block for that poster wasn't so much as a punishment for using the s word as it was coming from feelings of ill will that Bob had towards that particular poster.Bob doesn't like for posters to disagree with him on the boards. That poster wasn't shy about expressing her feelings. I believe blocking can be most hurtful to someone who is vulnerable and Babble is the only social contact that the poster has. When we have mental health issues ofttimes it is difficult or next to impossible to form relationships with people IRL. I don't think that anyone should be blocked more than two weeks. When a poster is blocked unless they have an email address from other posters, they are totally cut off from the site. No chat and no "babblemail".....a personal message service. I know numerous posters have lost their main support system when they have been blocked. For someone who is already in a "dark place" being cut off from your friends and support can be devastating. And only recently has Bob come up with a very bizarre request for posters. When he is getting ready to block someone (after he draws it out for days and days) he will ask other posters to help the first poster keep from being blocked. I couldn't think of anything that I would be less likely to do. Particularly with a poster that I did not "know". It puts a burden upon someone who may have trouble posting anything on the boards and now they are encouraged to "help" someone avoid being blocked by Bob? I felt that if you don't help the poster avoid being blocked you may in some way feel guilty for not speaking up. I also saw what I believe is/was favoritism for certain posters. I am convinced that some could say anything they pleased and somehow they were under Bob's "radar".

Another troublesome issue is that Bob might not show up at the site for a month or more. The site was in crisis and Bob didn't show up for several weeks. His deputies were pleading with him to help.

The writer of the article seems to be particularly enamoured with the medication board. As I said earlier, I received invaluable support from posters and they helped me in difficult times. However, I see problems with the med board. I saw people discussing meds as if they were something to be purchased over the counter at the nearby pharmacy. I also saw posters giving others advice that concerned me. Telling someone, who is your online friend, that they should definitely get off of Med X and start Med A immediately. The first poster is convinced that "so and so" obviously knows his/her stuff because they post so much and seem to really have a grasp on meds. He/she may go to their physician and be told that they absolutely will not be prescribed that med because they don't feel it would be the right one for the patient. Now the poster can be conflicted about how to proceed. Trust his "friend" or his doctor?

I will speak to one more issue while I am commenting. One morning people logged onto the website and there was a Twitter and Facebook link under everyone's posts. The link could be clicked on and your post went straight to Bob's pages at both of these social networking sites. Bob did not ask one poster at Babble if they minded if he added that feature. There was a firestorm on Babble that I believe is the worst I've seen concerning Bob's "ideas" for the site. Some posters were afraid their employers might be able to find them on Babble. Others were afraid their families would be able to read their private posts. Eventually a list was started and the posters could opt-out of having their posts moved to Bob's Facebook and Twitter pages. Feelings were very hurt and a lot of anger was generated towards Bob. Many "old timers" left Babble. A specific situation that upset people was the fact that Bob linked to a post where a poster was talking about taking his life.I cannot imagine how a person would feel about having his posts available to the "public". Those who "talked" to the poster were in the thread. Somehow Bob believes that linking personal posts to the social networking sites will help bring new people to Babble.

All that glitters is not gold. I, along with many others, left the site last year for good
5Recommend
angie55
NYCApril 18, 2010
The stated purpose of this website is questionable when the doctor who runs it continues to market and promote it through means such as Twitter and Facebook while refusing to let users who once revealed personal, sensitive information to edit or delete their posts. Some people are held hostage to text written about their personal mental health issues posted on that site over a decade ago, before internet privacy issues were a topic of concern. While there are now visible disclaimers about how the information might be used, it was not so apparent in the past.

Having said that, it seems the website benefits the career of the Dr./owner through the books (see the book Dr. Bob wrote about a Psychobabble member who committed suicide) and research published at the potential expense of those who provided the information. How did the family of the poster who committed suicide feel about the publicity?

Legal? Perhaps. Ethical? I do not think so-not when a psychiatrist runs the website which can lead to a false sense of security to those who contribute. Before using the site, I would have never guessed a professional psychiatrist could be so nonchalant about mental health privacy issues.

 

Re: dr bobs activity is illegal

Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 3:31:09

In reply to Re: dr bobs activity is illegal, posted by ert on October 3, 2018, at 7:23:03

and then there's liability insurance...

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 5, 2018, at 15:31:34

In reply to Re: dr bobs activity is illegal, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 3:31:09

> and then there's liability insurance...

You should not need a liability insurance for that.
He hosts copyright infringements of sensitive data, coerces the participants or owners by not executing their will of deleting some posts, all posts or if desired their whole profile.
And by that he exposes participants to the potential danger of public sensitive data containing profiles.
I think he should soon update and amend the current policy.
But what is that for a doctor who acts unlawful? I think that participants or sick people deserve to be respected, treated seriously and they must be granted the rights that the law sets.
I do not say that the idea of this babble is bad in general but the policy is.


 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 5, 2018, at 16:23:17

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 5, 2018, at 15:31:34

> > and then there's liability insurance...
>
> You should not need a liability insurance for that.
> He hosts copyright infringements of sensitive data, coerces the participants or owners by not executing their will of deleting some posts, all posts or if desired their whole profile.
> And by that he exposes participants to the potential danger of public sensitive data containing profiles.
> I think he should soon update and amend the current policy.
> But what is that for a doctor who acts unlawful? I think that participants or sick people deserve to be respected, treated seriously and they must be granted the rights that the law sets.
> I do not say that the idea of this babble is bad in general but the policy is.
>
>
>

however, it also must be mentioned that the policy is 20 years old, but he has not taken any steps yet to change it and adapt them to new circumstances.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 6, 2018, at 17:23:12

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 5, 2018, at 16:23:17

Alexandra: NZ should better tighten a bit the intellectual property laws so that they can sell more intellectual goods and not only wool and dairy products.

For Europe and neighboring countries I am very sure that dr. bob acts unlawful with the current policy. This especially also in the light of the new GDPR. Whereas for the US I am a bit less sure but from what I have read is that fair use is limited and does not apply for particular sensitive data. And the permission for usage can anyway be revoked from the copyright holder at anytime. Furthermore, every post is linked and therefore also every trivial phrase within that post with every other substantial text in another post.

In the us apply e.g.
State specific privacy laws like Personal Data Collection and Protection Ordinance
Federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 and state specific laws
21st Century Cures Act
Copyright Act

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2018, at 17:31:14

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 6, 2018, at 17:23:12

how do you feel about the Khan Academy posting rules, then? that's a site for children. I think (though I didn't take a multi-guess, admittedly) they state they retain copyright over your post, too. and they can use your data (including test statistic) how they want.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 6, 2018, at 19:27:38

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 5, 2018, at 15:31:34

bob literally is doing an experiment with posts, and directly linking them to google, I know eveeerrrrythang there is know about Deeeee Bob

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 5:44:24

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by rjlockhart37 on October 6, 2018, at 19:27:38

interesting question, alexandra:

i am not a specialist, but as far as I understand the automatic transfer of the copyright would not be legal. I would need an agreement, contract or license with the conditions signed in mutuality. an automatic transfer could signify theft or unconscionably. however, when the data qualifies eg. as fair use, then it can be used with permission. but the ownership is not transferred.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 6:17:41

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 5:44:24

alexandra:

I do not think that med data, disability data etc. do qualify as fair use. Moreover, every post with whatever content is connected with another post and the latter connected with all others. They build together a profile, so therefore the content of a post must be considered with all other posts. Because the ownership is not transferred automatically to a user, the given permission for usage should be able to be revoked by the owner. If the right to be revoked not or only partly granted, that could signify theft or coercion. These rules apply, as far as I understand, regardless if somebody posts anonymous or partly anonymous. In some countries anonymous content loose their copyright after 80 years or more, however.

In other countries it might be similar but also different.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements... ert

Posted by SLS on October 7, 2018, at 10:20:11

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 5, 2018, at 15:31:34

What would you like to see happen?


- Scott

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 14:07:51

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements... ert, posted by SLS on October 7, 2018, at 10:20:11

> What would you like to see happen?
>
>
> - Scott

Dear Scott,

For the fulfillment of lawfulness:

Regardless of the content a participant must be able to delete his/her posts or they must be reliably deleted by someone else.

To abide by the laws of at best most countries overrides the negative argument that the size of the database could get 20% smaller by deleting posts and it could consequently loose of its quality. The database consists of much non medication posts like melt downs, venting etc. Moreover, a positive clinical effect of this database has not been proven yet. It could be, however, that the present policy makes the participants more sick and anxious than healthy.

Research and academic achievement with an ever growing database with copyright infringements is ethically and legally questionable. Especially, when it is being considered the bad consequences and risks that it can pose, currently or many years later in a participants life. For example, consequences mentioned in the faqs or others.

maybe you scott could be given the responsible ability to delete posts and identifiers.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 14:42:54

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 14:07:51

scott:

Of course partly anonymous full public profiles of sick people not only with med data, but in addition combined with e.g. social, demographical or whatever data is better for research.

But exactly such full public profiles consisting of sensitive data copyright infringements combined with other data are ethically even more questionable. Moreover, such a public profile can be descriptively puzzled together by anyone, not only the researcher.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 7, 2018, at 20:02:53

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements... ert, posted by SLS on October 7, 2018, at 10:20:11

the deputies had control over deleting posts, you don't see duputies anymore, either that or they just read our posts and study us, but i know this is not what your specifically talking about, but all these posts are linked to Google, as a database, whatever keywords are googled, posts will be linked to it. Really given the option of deleting ones posts, it won't happen. Back in 2000s, these boards were big, and now since babble, i think dr-bob had redone the site and changed the server into a database, or a new server. I think, "the same furniture, new location" is what I think he wrote on the previous post above this post.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 7, 2018, at 20:04:46

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by rjlockhart37 on October 7, 2018, at 20:02:53

that includes twittering what we write, publically

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 7, 2018, at 20:24:47

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by rjlockhart37 on October 7, 2018, at 20:04:46

but that's just a view, sometimes i don't get the big picture of things....

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 9, 2018, at 14:39:47

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 7, 2018, at 14:42:54

did not know that obviously someone had the privilege to do that, rjlockhart37

how are you ? , scotty, after you tapered off your med and started a new one ?

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 10, 2018, at 13:59:45

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 9, 2018, at 14:39:47

A little correction: an automatic transfer of the copyright could signify theft or unconscionability

Since Robert Hsiung hosts a database that contains full profiles connected with medical data that deserves special protection and each of these posts are linked with all other posts that build together a sensitive containing personality profile, every post of a user or copyright holder must be deleted. The personality profile is simply accessible by typing a users name and is public, not only visible by the researcher. Even if it were not public it must be deleted, when desired.

But I do not think that most participants would demand to delete their whole profile (provided the user name was anonymous) but of course an indefinite number of posts.

 

Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 10, 2018, at 14:08:36

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 10, 2018, at 13:59:45

OOPS,

I made some mistakes. but that is exactly the problem. It is not editable, once it is posted it can not be deleted anymore by the owner or user.

A little correction: an automatic transfer of the copyright could signify theft or unconscionability

Since Robert Hsiung hosts a database that contains full profiles connected with medical data that deserves special protection and each of these posts are linked with all other posts that build together a sensitive data containing personality profile, every post of a user or copyright holder must be deleted. The personality profile is simply accessible by typing in and query a users name, is public and not only visible by the researcher. Even if it were not public it must be deleted, when desired.

But I do not think that most participants would demand to delete their whole profile (provided the user name was anonymous) but of course an indefinite number of posts.

 

Re: copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 9:43:19

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 10, 2018, at 14:08:36

I must be precise, he has copyright infringements according to his policy. But it is NOT blackmail as I stated before. That is the false word. But it *could* be theft and coercion. But probably he is really in a hurry. I said only phrases, words but it must be posts too. All those I demand.

 

Re: Thanks for asking. ert

Posted by SLS on October 11, 2018, at 14:23:45

In reply to Re: robert hsiung hosts copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 9, 2018, at 14:39:47

> Scotty, after you tapered off your med and started a new one ?

Thanks for asking.

I discontinued Effexor and waited three weeks before starting Nardil. I am only on day two of treatment.

- Scott

 

Re: copyright infringements...

Posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 14:29:32

In reply to Re: copyright infringements..., posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 9:43:19

I am concerned about these babble forum. Because of the present policy, it could pose risks for the participants here. For example someone can get blackmailed, cannot forget reminiscences, younger ones can post things that they would not post later on down the road or it cannot be pushed the reset button. At best some power should be conceded to someone independent who would not put personal interests in front of the interests of the participants. And the policy must be changed so that it is compliant with the laws. Therefore, the policy must allow that posts can be deleted.

Since the users cannot delete themselves, someone from the student counseling service from the University of Chicago could be entrusted with deleting posts and oversight about this website. Somebody, who can be called via the phone. This also will bring some more trust and integrity. Since how it is now, it cannot be really trusted.


 

Re: Thanks for asking.

Posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 14:33:21

In reply to Re: Thanks for asking. ert, posted by SLS on October 11, 2018, at 14:23:45

> > Scotty, after you tapered off your med and started a new one ?
>
> Thanks for asking.
>
> I discontinued Effexor and waited three weeks before starting Nardil. I am only on day two of treatment.
>
> - Scott

Good luck. the nardil is considered as effective. there is the cheese issue, it can cause myoclonic jerks. maybe the nardil will be better for anxiety than effexor. all the best.

 

Re: Thanks for asking. to scott

Posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 14:40:42

In reply to Re: Thanks for asking., posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 14:33:21

> > > Scotty, after you tapered off your med and started a new one ?
> >
> > Thanks for asking.
> >
> > I discontinued Effexor and waited three weeks before starting Nardil. I am only on day two of treatment.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Good luck. the nardil is considered as effective. there is the cheese issue, it can cause myoclonic jerks. maybe the nardil will be better for anxiety than effexor. all the best.
>
>

for some people symptoms can get bigger when the nights are longer. so, i think more light is a good idea and more walks. i believe linkadge used walks and light.

 

Re: Thanks for asking. to scott

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 11, 2018, at 23:45:34

In reply to Re: Thanks for asking. to scott, posted by ert on October 11, 2018, at 14:40:42

i made a suggestion about making babble a database, it's somewhere up in the archives, not sure if that gave a new idea, research previous archives on admin board.

 

Re: Thanks for asking. to scott

Posted by ert on October 13, 2018, at 4:30:08

In reply to Re: Thanks for asking. to scott, posted by rjlockhart37 on October 11, 2018, at 23:45:34

he said per email that he is super busy right now, so i have some understanding. However, not all phrases were deleted, that I already demanded. He said that he desires some mutuality, but I do not think it needs any mutuality when someone wants back its property. Over a year ago I notified. But there was no response, maybe it had not been read.

the policy must change for the participants and for the compliance of the laws. Otherwise, it lacks integrity and trust.


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[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

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