Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1117719

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Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 14, 2021, at 12:40:23

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 14, 2021, at 8:30:46

> > > Can something that improves negative symptoms cause depression?
> >
> > Probably not in the same individual, but as you know, a drug that works for someone may not work for someone else.
> >
> > > I dont get it. The two problems sound identical.
> >
> > The anhedonia and apathy are identical, but negative symptoms does not necessarily include a depressed mood, more likely it's flat.
> >
> > -undopaminergic
>
>
>
> While I was hunting for articles that refer to any differences that may exist between anhedonia and apathy,
>

The two are very different in my experience and understanding. Anhedonia is the lack of reward, pleasure, enjoyment from doing things you would normally. While that is of course a symptom that reduces motivation to engage in activities, it's nothing like apathy, which takes away *all* (or most) of the motivation and interest for doing things. I think you could summarise it as anhedonia taking away the "liking" of activities, and apathy taking away the "desire" for activities. You can also call apathy "anticipatory" anhedonia, with "regular" anhedonia being "consummatory".

> I found something that is more important than nomenclature. The dichotomy described in the two major subtypes of Major Depressive Disorder has been applied since 1980. To my knowledge, Michael Liebowitz and the research team at Columbia were the first to identify this difference.
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6042519/
>
> "Features of depression: melancholia, anhedonia, apathy
>
> Different types of depression are associated with markedly different symptoms. Depression with melancholic features is associated with anhedonia, lack of mood reactivity, sadness, weight loss, insomnia, psychomotor agitation, and worse mood in the morning. Depression with atypical features, on the other hand, is associated with a distinct cluster of symptoms, and includes leaden paralysis, fatigue, weight gain, hypersomnia, mood reactivity, sensitivity to social rejection, and worse mood in the evening. ...
>

I have a little of both. I have anhedonia, worse mood in the morning, fatigue, and initial insomnia that is followed by hypersomnia.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 14, 2021, at 13:18:26

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 14, 2021, at 10:04:41

> UD,

SLS,

> > If the disorder/disease is understood, such as with Parkinson's disease, it is a neurological and not psychatric condition.
>
> Is Bipolar Disorder a neurological disease?

Not at present.

> Why or why not?

It's too poorly understood to be considered a neurological condition, and much for that reason, the treatment consists mostly of experimentation to find mood stabilising drugs. Compare that to Parkinson's disease where L-dopa is a safe bet (if it does not respond to L-dopa, it's probably not Parkinson's -- could be manganism for instance).

Also, there are often psychological factors involved in bipolar disorder.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 14, 2021, at 20:08:59

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 14, 2021, at 13:18:26

> > UD,
>
> SLS,
>
> > > If the disorder/disease is understood, such as with Parkinson's disease, it is a neurological and not psychatric condition.
> >
> > Is Bipolar Disorder a neurological disease?
>
> Not at present.
>
> > Why or why not?
>
> It's too poorly understood to be considered a neurological condition


I think the basis upon which you define neurological disorders is arbitrary.

There are hundreds of thousands of scientific works that demonstrate anomalies in both structure and function of the brain in Bipolar Disorder. Isn't that de facto neurological?

In *your* opinion, is the *resultant* disease state in Bipolar Disorder a neurological condition, or is it exclusively psychological?

Seizure disorders (epilepsy) were described some 4000 years ago. It has been poorly understood throughout history until the recent advent of electrophysiological measuring instruments and neuroimaging techniques. Despite how late in history science has elucidated the neurological basis of epilepsy, the categorization of epilepsy as a neurological disorder predates this.

> Also, there are often psychological factors involved in bipolar disorder.

How is this statement of yours salient to the categorization of Bipolar Disorder? Psychological factors are also involved in:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,31&as_vis=1&q=psychological+contributions+etiology+physical

In 1992, a PET scan was performed on me at the National Institutes of Health. The images demonstrated that my brain activity was significantly lower in select regions compared to healthy controls.

In spring of 1982, I had come to the conclusion that Bipolar Disorder and Unipolar Major Depressive Disorder were both caused by pathologies in neurological function. That year, I made it a major goal of mine to educate others as to how I experience depression and what causes it. I was quite convincing. The way I explained things to others allowed most of them to understand the biological nature of affective disorders to their own experiences. I taught people using scientific details, analogies, and metaphors. I refused to allow anyone to continue believing that MDD and BD were diseases of the mind alone when it is indeed a disease with neurobiological underpinnings.

My ultimate goal was to destigmatize mental illness in general, as well as to prevent the stigmatization of me by society. I did this by teaching one person at a time. It is a continuing endeavor.

The hell if I'm going to stay silent when so much is at stake. I will continue to offer resistance to anyone who acts to, by design or ignorance, stymie or sabotage societal progress in its perception of mental illness.


Q: What prevents you from coming to the conclusion that Bipolar Disorder is a neurological disease?


- Scott


 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by Lamdage22 on December 14, 2021, at 23:35:06

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 14, 2021, at 20:08:59

Some people think everyone of us is bad news. When the truth is that the majority are not bothering anyone. Unfortunately, only the ones who do b*llsh*t are remembered. It is worse here than in the US. In the US, you can talk about it, and you are not automatically considered dangerous if you do.

I perceive Stigma to be the toughest burden I have to carry.

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia Lamdage22

Posted by SLS on December 15, 2021, at 7:44:36

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by Lamdage22 on December 14, 2021, at 23:35:06

> Some people think everyone of us is bad news. When the truth is that the majority are not bothering anyone. Unfortunately, only the ones who do b*llsh*t are remembered. It is worse here than in the US. In the US, you can talk about it, and you are not automatically considered dangerous if you do.
>
> I perceive Stigma to be the toughest burden I have to carry.

Yes. <sad>

I had the courage to inflict the truth on people because I was so good at it. My mind was too slow to play video games, but I could talk some sh*t...

It was my second most immediate goal (second only to remission of depression) to educate and destigmatize. Why would I allow anyone to think of ME as having a broken and functionless psyche? Why would I allow people to think that I was weird?

I was able to change my environment one person at a time. I changed quite a few minds. I saw that sufferers and their peers both needed information and understanding. The psyches of sufferers become warped and unhealthy as a result of the alteration in brain function - an altered state of consciousness. Intrusive thoughts coming out of nowhere are particularly difficult to guard against. Chronically abnormal brain biology damages the psyche. This in turn reinforces and makes worse the pathology of affective disorders by introducing more and more depressive pressure (stress). If left untreated, this positive-feedback loop assaults the brain with increasing severity and can end up in treatment-resistace.

Would psychotherapy alone break the positive feedback loop cycle?

Absolutely. It can.

How often will psychotherapy alone break through the most severe of properly diagnosed Major Depressive Disorder which includes psychomotor retardation and the deficit syndrome?

Almost never.

Education.

I hope that people read this.


- Scott

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 10:44:05

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 14, 2021, at 20:08:59

>
> I think the basis upon which you define neurological disorders is arbitrary.

OK.

> There are hundreds of thousands of scientific works that demonstrate anomalies in both structure and function of the brain in Bipolar Disorder. Isn't that de facto neurological?
>

Neurological in the sense of involvement of nerve cells, yes. Neurological in the sense of medical specialty it belongs to, no.

Last I heard there was still no brain scan or other test that can be used for diagnosis. That sounds like a failure to understand the neurological basis of the disorder.

> In *your* opinion, is the *resultant* disease state in Bipolar Disorder a neurological condition, or is it exclusively psychological?
>

I don't think it is either. I would concede that you may call it neuropsychiatric.

> > Also, there are often psychological factors involved in bipolar disorder.
>
> How is this statement of yours salient to the categorization of Bipolar Disorder?
>

In the sense that you can't classify psychological factors as neurological, even if they eventually translate into effects on the nervous system.

> Psychological factors are also involved in:
>
> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,31&as_vis=1&q=psychological+contributions+etiology+physical
>

Yeah, the psyche is powerful!

> In 1992, a PET scan was performed on me at the National Institutes of Health. The images demonstrated that my brain activity was significantly lower in select regions compared to healthy controls.
>

Yes, I saw the pictures you posted a while ago.

> Q: What prevents you from coming to the conclusion that Bipolar Disorder is a neurological disease?
>

I don't know.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 12:11:56

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia Lamdage22, posted by SLS on December 15, 2021, at 7:44:36

Cool. I like psychotherapy. It is my favorite mainstream treatment, although analytic therapy is less mainstream than CBT these days.

> Would psychotherapy alone break the positive feedback loop cycle?
>
> Absolutely. It can.

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 12:16:07

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 12:11:56

To me it is the first time I am talking to a real psychologist. The others were more like: It would be good if you thought this way and do this and that etc. Im not a fan.

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 12:46:00

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 12:16:07

> To me it is the first time I am talking to a real psychologist. The others were more like: It would be good if you thought this way and do this and that etc. Im not a fan.
>

Does that difference have to do with whether they are or are not real psychologists? Sounds more like a difference between psychodynamic and behavioural therapies.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 12:57:58

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 12:46:00

Some people only need to be told what to think and do I guess and then it works. The success of CBT in trials cant be explained otherwise. I am not one of them though.

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 13:37:38

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 12:57:58

> Some people only need to be told what to think and do I guess and then it works. The success of CBT in trials cant be explained otherwise.
>

Yes, something like that.

You did not comment on why it is of relevance whether the therapist is a psychologist.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia

Posted by Lamdage22 on December 15, 2021, at 13:43:36

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 13:37:38

Do you think some peoples problem is mostly a lack of good advice? I cant understand how CBT would work for so many people if not for that reason.

There are other therapists that can be good as well. I have never seen anyone other than a psychologist. You are right.


> You did not comment on why it is of relevance whether the therapist is a psychologist.
>
> -undopaminergic
>

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 15, 2021, at 14:48:53

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 10:44:05

Compelling.


- Scott

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by Jay2112 on December 15, 2021, at 19:25:14

In reply to Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by SLS on December 9, 2021, at 8:42:24

>
>
>
> A potential new approach for the treatment for both positive and negative
> symptoms of schizophrenia:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

>
> After identifying mGlu1an abbreviation of metabotropic glutamate receptor
> subtype 1as a potentially druggable target, they tested it with a compound that
> enhances its function: a positive allosteric modulator. The PAM was previously
> developed by Conn in close collaboration with other labs in the WCNDD,
> including those of Craig Lindsley, University Professor of Chemistry and
> Pharmacology, and Colleen Niswender, associate professor of pharmacology.
> Using this compound, they found that enhancing the activity of mGlu1 selectively
> increased the activity of specific inhibitory interneurons, restoring their ability to
> inhibit the neuronal circuits they control.
>

So, they are stimulating a glutamate receptor subtype?

Jay

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 16, 2021, at 8:03:23

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia, posted by undopaminergic on December 15, 2021, at 13:37:38

A very insightful man once said something to me that I needed to hear:

"If you have to be right, you're wrong."

My objectivity and critical thinking improved. I found that not *having* to be "right" improved my odds of being right, especially when I listen to others who are.

I reflect on my friend's sage advice often. It helps to keep me honest with myself.

I am fortunate to have met this person.


- Scott

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 16, 2021, at 8:20:00

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 16, 2021, at 8:03:23

> A very insightful man once said something to me that I needed to hear:
>
> "If you have to be right, you're wrong."
>
> My objectivity and critical thinking improved. I found that not *having* to be "right" improved my odds of being right, especially when I listen to others who are.
>
> I reflect on my friend's sage advice often. It helps to keep me honest with myself.
>
> I am fortunate to have met this person.
>
>
> - Scott

So, do you feel that I think I have to be right?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 16, 2021, at 14:04:27

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 16, 2021, at 8:20:00

> > A very insightful man once said something to me that I needed to hear:
> >
> > "If you have to be right, you're wrong."
> >
> > My objectivity and critical thinking improved. I found that not *having* to be "right" improved my odds of being right, especially when I listen to others who are.
> >
> > I reflect on my friend's sage advice often. It helps to keep me honest with myself.
> >
> > I am fortunate to have met this person.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> So, do you feel that I think I have to be right?
>
> -undopaminergic


Absolutely.


.

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 16, 2021, at 14:17:25

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 16, 2021, at 14:04:27

> > > A very insightful man once said something to me that I needed to hear:
> > >
> > > "If you have to be right, you're wrong."
> > >
> > > My objectivity and critical thinking improved. I found that not *having* to be "right" improved my odds of being right, especially when I listen to others who are.
> > >
> > > I reflect on my friend's sage advice often. It helps to keep me honest with myself.
> > >
> > > I am fortunate to have met this person.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > So, do you feel that I think I have to be right?
> >
> > -undopaminergic
>
>
> Absolutely.
>

Well, I don't. I am, however, not afraid of debate. Even so, I don't invest much prestige in it.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 17, 2021, at 13:02:23

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 16, 2021, at 14:17:25

UD.

I was harsh on you. I apologize for that.

Still...

> In the sense that you can't classify psychological factors as neurological,


"The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain."


"Differentiating unipolar and bipolar depression by alterations in large-scale brain networks"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6867444/

Neuroscience moves forward. There ARE differences in the structure and function MDD and BD brains compared to healthy controls. Even more salient, and of great therapeutic importance, is that a differential diagnosis can be made separating unipolar and bipolar disorders by examining brain neurological function. Differential diagnosis is no longer entirely dependent on verbal interview.


- Scott

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 18, 2021, at 8:43:36

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 17, 2021, at 13:02:23

> UD.

SLS.

> I was harsh on you. I apologize for that.

It's all right.

> Still...
>
> > In the sense that you can't classify psychological factors as neurological,
>
>
> "The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain."

You stopped quoting me right at the comma after which I was saying "even if they eventually translate into effects on the nervous system.".

> Neuroscience moves forward. There ARE differences in the structure and function MDD and BD brains compared to healthy controls. Even more salient, and of great therapeutic importance, is that a differential diagnosis can be made separating unipolar and bipolar disorders by examining brain neurological function. Differential diagnosis is no longer entirely dependent on verbal interview.
>

In practice, not yet. I think very few diagnosticians actually use the new tools so far, and most probably haven't even heard of them.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 18, 2021, at 10:21:15

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 18, 2021, at 8:43:36

> > UD.
>
> SLS.
>
> > I was harsh on you. I apologize for that.
>
> It's all right.
>
> > Still...
> >
> > > In the sense that you can't classify psychological factors as neurological,
> >
> >
> > "The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain."
>
> You stopped quoting me right at the comma after which I was saying "even if they eventually translate into effects on the nervous system.".

.

I saw that. I've already addressed that point with a Google URL that lists diseases that are impelled by psychosocial stress, but are nevertheless biological. I thought you would have clicked on it.

Is plaque psoriasis a psychological disease or a skin disease?

This the URL I posted to you before:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C31&as_vis=1&q=etiology+physical+disease+psychology&btnG=

How do you interpret the results of this Google search? After surveying the literature cited, do you still have difficulties categorizing Bipolar Disorder as being a neurological disorder? If so, is it because, unlike the diseases listed by Google, Bipolar Disorder is often, but not always, precipitated by chronic psychological stress? Is the psychological stress itself Bipolar Disorder, or is it but one of many contributors to its etiology? How is it that the majority of people who experience the same amount of stress escape Bipolar Disorder?

The answers I continue to arrive at to the questions I asked lead me to categorize Bipolar Disorder as a condition of the nervous system - just as the practice of medicine recognizes psoriasis as a condition of the skin.


- Scott


 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 18, 2021, at 11:36:54

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 18, 2021, at 10:21:15

> > > UD.
> >
> > SLS.
> >
> > > I was harsh on you. I apologize for that.
> >
> > It's all right.
> >
> > > Still...
> > >
> > > > In the sense that you can't classify psychological factors as neurological,
> > >
> > >
> > > "The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain."
> >
> > You stopped quoting me right at the comma after which I was saying "even if they eventually translate into effects on the nervous system.".
>
> .
>
> I saw that. I've already addressed that point

What I meant, was that I was saying the same thing that you did, ie. psychological factors translating into effects on the nervous system, whereas you said it in the words "the mind sculpts the brain".

> Is plaque psoriasis a psychological disease or a skin disease?
>

I don't have time to look into that, but if it is psychosomatic, then it is a primarily psychical disorder. I'm not saying you should not treat the somatic symptoms, but you need to address its roots if you're seeking to "cure" it.

> How do you interpret the results of this Google search?

I prefer not to interpret it. It looks like I could be at it full time for days, and there would still be more to read. I'll just address it the same way I did the first time: "The psyche is powerful!".

> After surveying the literature cited, do you still have difficulties categorizing Bipolar Disorder as being a neurological disorder?
>

As I said before, it is neurological in the sense that it involves the nervous system. It is not neurological by the definition that it is treated primarily by neurologists. I would go so far as to call it neuropsychiatric. I don't find that it belongs in the company of neurological diseases like Alzheimer's or epilepsy.

> If so, is it because, unlike the diseases listed by Google, Bipolar Disorder is often, but not always, precipitated by chronic psychological stress? Is the psychological stress itself Bipolar Disorder, or is it but one of many contributors to its etiology? How is it that the majority of people who experience the same amount of stress escape Bipolar Disorder?
>

There are genetic vulnerabilties and other factors at play. That involves the nervous system. I never said it's only in the psyche.

I am saying it is a (neuro)psychiatric condition. It's more like OCD than Parkinson's disease. That is not to say it doesn't involve the nervous system; I'm sure OCD does too.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 18, 2021, at 14:01:52

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 18, 2021, at 11:36:54

You seem indignant with me that you should find yourself lacking sufficient knowledge to address the points I offer as debate. If you don't want to invest any more time learning and researching so as to be able to defend your thesis against mine, you can always just say that you don't know.


- Scott

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on December 18, 2021, at 14:08:24

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic, posted by SLS on December 18, 2021, at 14:01:52

> You seem indignant with me that you should find yourself lacking sufficient knowledge to address the points I offer as debate. If you don't want to invest any more time learning and researching so as to be able to defend your thesis against mine, you can always just say that you don't know.
>
>
> - Scott

I don't even see myself as having any thesis that needs defending. I don't know -- case closed, let's move on, nothing more here to see!

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia undopaminergic

Posted by SLS on December 19, 2021, at 12:43:40

In reply to Re: Novel treatment for schizophrenia SLS, posted by undopaminergic on December 18, 2021, at 14:08:24

Bipolar Disorder is a disorder of the brain. It is neurological. That's all I'm saying. That's what you are arguing against. You appear to be wrong.

...at least so far.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-020-0796-8

Yes.

Let's move on and reflect on our separate beliefs in the privacy of our minds.


- Scott


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