Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1114360

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 65. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2021, at 20:41:53

A friend in the Netherlands just wrote me that in Europe the Astra Zenneca vaccine now has a new name due to blood clot? Is this true or false information? Thanks Phillipa.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on March 31, 2021, at 19:40:18

In reply to Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2021, at 20:41:53

https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/eu-affairs/162559/astrazeneca-vaccine-now-renamed-as-vaxzevria-ema-european-eu-uk-swedish-lakemedelsverket/

Maybe.

They are saying now that the clotting is like heparin induced clotting. Similar kind of response / reaction.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on March 31, 2021, at 20:07:49

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on March 31, 2021, at 19:40:18

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1

antibodies binding to platelets 5-14 days post-vaccination.

treatable in the developed world.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2021, at 20:49:10

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on March 31, 2021, at 20:07:49

Alex was just now reading a newsletter about the exact same thing. Seems now that Canada has also paused Astra Zeneca in anyone under 55 years old. And read today that France is in a lockdown for 30 days, restricting travel, curfews, and closed schools Phillipa

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by undopaminergic on April 1, 2021, at 3:02:21

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on March 31, 2021, at 19:40:18

>
> They are saying now that the clotting is like heparin induced clotting. Similar kind of response / reaction.
>

It is my understanding that heparin is an anticoagulant used *against* clotting.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 1, 2021, at 4:15:43

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by undopaminergic on April 1, 2021, at 3:02:21

Right. I am not sure. I reckon that Astra-Zeneca is a "traditional" vaccine while Pfizer/Biontech and Moderna are new mrna-technology. I stress Biontech cuz I am german:) Yeah, I hope that mrna is really safe because it was never done before.

> >
> > They are saying now that the clotting is like heparin induced clotting. Similar kind of response / reaction.
> >
>
> It is my understanding that heparin is an anticoagulant used *against* clotting.
>
> -undopaminergic
>

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 1, 2021, at 4:16:36

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by Lamdage22 on April 1, 2021, at 4:15:43

I am really unsure what I am going to get. I just got a letter from the government asking for patience.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? undopaminergic

Posted by alexandra_k on April 1, 2021, at 5:37:15

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by undopaminergic on April 1, 2021, at 3:02:21

> It is my understanding that heparin is an anticoagulant used *against* clotting.

Yes! That is what it is!

But, in some people, it forms a complex with platelets and the platelets activate and the platelets activate the clotting cascade in the veins. This leads to a *paradoxical* effect of hyper or increased coagulation and risk of thrombis / blood clots forming.

One should not give warfarin in this circumstance.

Aspirin. Or there are a few other things.

Asprin. Not just good for Kawasaki disease. Remember when they said people were getting something that resembled Kawasaki disease something to do with Covid?

I do!

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 1, 2021, at 6:51:47

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? undopaminergic, posted by alexandra_k on April 1, 2021, at 5:37:15

Thinning the blood? EPA/DHA does it. I counteract with Vitamin K1

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2021, at 19:20:21

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by Lamdage22 on April 1, 2021, at 6:51:47

> Thinning the blood? EPA/DHA does it. I counteract with Vitamin K1

But in this case what is happening is...

(I could be wrong disclaimer).. I think what is happening is that the body is making antibodies to coronavirus (as we want it to do upon exposure to the virus, or upon vaccination). So the body is making antibodies... Having the immmune response that will clear the CoronaVirus and preserve health...

But the antibodies are not quite so specific for the CoronaVirus as we wanted it to be. Instead, they are not only attaching to CoronaVirus... They are attaching to platelets.

I think.

I think.

And then the platelets become activated. And the platelets release substances that activate the coagulation cascade. So clots start to form.

But the platelets... I think what happens is that the macrophage start chowing down on the bound antibody. When all goes well the macrophage start chowing down on the antibody-CoronaVirus complexes to clear the virus. Which is what we want to happen.

But since the antibodies bound to platelets the macrophage start chowing down on the platelets that have been bound to antibodies.

So...

We get platelet insufficiency (bleeding out). Thats's the rash. The main risk of bleeding out is bleeding out into the brain.

But there was also (prior to platelet insufficiency) clots. From the platelets becoming activated (before the insufficiency kicked in).

So...

I think... I think... (I could be wrong)..

That this is where you 'throw a stick at a dog'.

That is to say: IV antibodies!

If you live in the first world... You give the body squillions of antibodies for the macrophage to be so busy chomping down on them that they can't destroy all the ones that have been bound to platelets.

That's a treatment for Kawasaki disease (which is a hodge podge syndrome that is hard to remember because it isnt' a coherent syndrome it is a hodge podge of things that is the leading cause of acquired cardiac failure in developed nations that have conquered rheumatic fever).

but also high dose of aspirin. because aspirin thins the blood by a partiuclar mechanism that prevents the coagulation cascasde. So it would prevent teh thrombus from forming and -- if given early enough could even prevent the platelet insufficiency?

But now I'm thinking I read that the first line treatment is IVIG and second line was high dose aspirin.

But my story makes it sound like low dose aspirin might prevent the whole shebang.

I don't know.

But I do remember why I wanted to study Medicine.

And I don't really understand why they are to determined to teach it to people who don't want to understand anything at all. Only use their power to deprive and control.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2021, at 19:25:50

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2021, at 19:20:21

the fish oil makes the body lipid bilayer membrane on the cells more flexible. it softens the blood? perhaps... haha. I don't know. I don't know that the mechanism would prevent the problem, here.

vitamin k... deficiency can result in lack of activation of the cascade... But if you don't have a deficiency then giving vitamin k won't help people clot when they aren't clotting.

when they said CoronaVirus (well before the development of vaccine) was resulting in weird clots and complications from that in some patients... They said it was like Kawasaki disease but in adults. I wondered what they meant. If they meant that IVIG and aspirin seemed to help. Because those are the treatments for Kawasaki disease...

But I thought they were talking about clots in the lungs and the kidneys, particularly. Clogging the respiratory and filtration membrane...

I think these are complications of the body producing antibodies. These were the kinds of problems I was worrying about with vaccination. I wasn't sure if there is anything in common with teh people who tend to have these kinds of reactions / responses.

It is strange to me that the AstraZeneca one is the only one with a known link thus far... Why is that? Are we missing something analysing the data on the others? Or is there something specific or partiuclar about the antibodies that are made by that particular one?

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2021, at 19:31:19

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2021, at 19:20:21


> But my story makes it sound like low dose aspirin might prevent the whole shebang.

and no it does not. aspirin would help with the clots forming by preventing the platelets activating the coagulation cascade -- but it wouldn't stop the macrophage from chowing down on the antibodies. and they were saying there was a rash indicative of platelet insufficiency...

so it does make sense.

i think... it is a temporary response. that is to say you give supportive treatment to get teh person through a crisis time and then their body rights itself. so a kind of a delayed allergic response. a complication of exposure to a virus they thought, in kawasaki disease, often. or a response to an immunisation. yes.

i think you can remove the spleen, too. but given that it's a temporary response / reaction that would probably be a bit uncalled for.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on April 3, 2021, at 20:37:31

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2021, at 19:31:19

Do you feel that this vaccine should be taken off the market then and switch to Pfizer? I think Pfizer now is the better one. My reasoning is why would the company be doing trials on infants from 6 months to age 11? Or could it be that the viral vector this vaccine uses isn't the right one. Which animal is it from again? Phillipa

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? Phillipa

Posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 17:52:43

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on April 3, 2021, at 20:37:31

> Do you feel that this vaccine should be taken off the market then and switch to Pfizer?

How would you want them to make a good decision on whether they should take it off the market, or not?

One way of thinking about it... Is to go... How many people would have got these blood clots if the never received a vaccine? And the answer to that is that we don't really know. That's the base incidence.

Then you go... How many MORE got these clots because they took the vaccine? I mean... Are we talking 1 in 100 or 1 in 10,000 or one in 1,000,000 or...

And then we go... How treatable are these clots, anyway, now that we know about taking it seriously if people present with difficulty after taking the vaccine...

And then we go... How many people will die of Covid if we withhold these vaccines?

And then we go... And how much money will all that cost?

And then I go: Gee. It seems pretty darned complicated. It even seems to be a case where rational people could disagree... So... Why not let people make up their own mind? That is to say uphold their human right to choose to have (or to choose not to have) medical treatment.

Would I not take the Astra Zeneca over this?

Mmm. I tempted early on by Moderna... But then I came to my senses a bit about letting the young'uns get there and have a go first (right behind you!!) and then I thought that Johnson most probably. I would probably choose that one.

> I think Pfizer now is the better one. My reasoning is why would the company be doing trials on infants from 6 months to age 11?

I think all of them would want to vaccinate kids, eventually. Nobody likes much to be the first to be experimenting on children (can't give consent) or pregnant women... There are special protections around protecting the interests of kids so their parents don't sell them to be experimental research subjects...


> Or could it be that the viral vector this vaccine uses isn't the right one. Which animal is it from again? Phillipa

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine.html

I think one needs to be a bit careful about politics. The Olympics was cancelled this year (it is largely about drug technology these days, unfortunately, because of how good we have gotten with training protocols particularly with popular mens sports)... So we got the health system Olympics instead...

There is an element of... Nationalism... Whereby the Americans are going to hate on the Oxford vaccine, you know they are...

But also where they are going to take them to task a bit.

For their use of animals in research. It has been shown to be unnecessary. Other companies managed to do without using Chimpanzee... You don't need to keep animals in apppalling conditions and sacrifice their lives to advance Medicine. You don't. People just *enjoy* it and aren't that bright to conceive of alternatives. There is a will to believe that. It turns out to be true.

Some people are very invested in otherwise because it's the stories they tell themselves to justify their crimes...

Another problem with the Oxford one was the dosing. Finding that giving 1/2 the initial dose they recommended (by *accident* -- which is not plausible) conferred higher immunity. Giving the dose they rolled out in the first major clinical trial they were getting around 70 per cent immunity. Which was what they aimed or hoped (what everyone aimed or hoped) the vaccines would have. So they met their target... But apparently by some unfathomable accient (yeah right) someone gave 1/2 dose and discovered more like over 90 per cent immunity.

So... Why over-dose?

$$$$$

It has been an accusation of countries bitching and moaning and complaining about the cost of medicine that the drug companies recommend doses that are in excess of what it theraputic for the profits. Teh drugs are expensive so saying people need more of them or higher doses is profit driven. Then nations like NZ try and say they aren't being cheap in giving people half doses of expensive medications -- they say they are getting theraputic results...

It seems that something like that may have been behind the Oxford dosing. The aim was as MUCH of the expensive component as they could do... But it turned out less was more when it came to immune response.

I don't know. SOmething dodgey seems to have gone on there.

I remember I was worried about that...

It is like...

What do people die of? I mean... People get a virus... So what? But people die from having the virus. But why? What does the virus do to kill them, exactly? People were drowning in respiratory secretions. They weren't able to respirate across the surface of their lungs... They werent' getting enough oxygen. So the virus was doing something to the respiratory surface of the lungs. Clogging it. Or creating... An immune response and that immune response was clogging it.

In Covid... They were saying it was the immune response that was potentially the lethal element. The harms that were resulting in death were the body's immune response or immune reaction to the virus.

So I did worry that if that was the case... Then vaccination... You would want to be careful not to induce deaths by the same mechanism that Covid did. Not giving people Covid... But having them die by teh same mechanism given that the immune response to Covid was the problem.

I would have thought.

But what do I know. I can't even get a Masters from a NZ University ahahahhahaha.

Something about whistle-blowing.

Because people don't actually want to do genuine research often enough or help people often enough...

I am glad we are not getting the Astra Zeneca one in NZ. I think there will be lessons learned of some kind in England and Australia. It's for their health systems to develop...

SO they will perform better next health system olympics...


 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 18:02:13

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 17:52:43

I think the issue with how much vaccine to give is to do with how we do research on drugs.

We do research on them from the perspective of toxicology. That is to say we are obsessed with how much exposure is lethal.

It means that in the animal research it is often 'how much exposure will kill them'. So we subject animals to high dose... Fly spray. Cosmetics. Anasthetics. Etc. We want to plot a dose-response graph... And we sort of dissociate from the fact that we mostly can extrapolate from the known without running many trials that we know are likely to inflict harm or death...

But it's routine for animal research.

And that's why there is concern (rightly) about experimenting on people, too. Toxicity studies.

Methodology needs to develop more humanely.

I think a lot of it just comes from this idea that more must be better. So people are over-dosed not because of greed, really. Just because people want to do everything they can and there is a natural inclination or tendancy to try something... More invasive than what is needed. Or whatever. A young male thing... Because we valued that in doctors... Get in there. Have a go. Be bold. Be a pioneer...

And the science, too.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 18:05:57

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 18:02:13

I am curious about why we aren't finding clots in other types of vaccine. They are all producing antibodies to Covid but only the AstraZeneca one seems to be producing antibodies that are activating the platelets. Or something else that is activating the platelets.

I wonder if less of a dose... Maybe splitting the first dose into 2 half doses...

That is something that I heard someone say (a relatively junior I thought but actually perhaps more mid-career)... Some medication she was hoping to get to prescribe in NZ... She was saying we could (sort of unofficially) give half doses for good results...

I thought the whole thing was super-dodgey... But maybe this is a thing with UK medications.

I don't know.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:23:30

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 17:52:43

Thanks chimps it is then. I had forgotten about the mistaken half doses being given that produced a more robust response than the original two dose vaccine. But in England they are still giving two doses but have spread the doses apart by three months. Since it triggers the immune system and those clots are found in the lungs hence why people can not breath. I think that one dose is better than 2 doses. But I wonder if the fact that this vaccine must go through three steps to get to mrna could be a factor. I just know those I know here older people like myself most have had the Pfizer and have done extremely well. There has to be a connection in the process of getting to the mrna that causes the clotting. And this is the least expensive vaccine? Also there is a link in the article about some being produced in India did not read it though. But today in California a new variant was found the Indian variant? Phillipa

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 18:27:55

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2021, at 18:05:57

I mean, the way I think of it is...

It is important that people not crap all over others work and so on... Go running off to complain.

But I haven't done that. I was honest with them to their faces. I was even honest with their superiors. I exhausted internal complaints resolution. With Waikato, I was blown off by the VC before I complained externally. When I complained externally I complained to the Ombudsman. I complained to politicians (parliament). I complained to the media.

They had every opportunity to take steps to put things right and they refused.

So...

I mean...

All those people out there who care about their health and the health of people they love...

All those people when they want to know what research they should trust... What hospital... What medication manufacturers...

If there is anything at all or it's all just a scummy scam.

You look at whistleblowers... If people see problems. If the problems are sorted so they don't need to complain.

NZ is so f*ck*ng inefficient we just bitch and whine and moan and don't do any f*ck*ng work all day.

There's nothing here.

The Ombudsman doesn't function

I think the courts...

The judges are so caught up in the idea of writing beautiful judgments they forgot timely justice was the goal or aim.

There's nothing here.

Judicial review shouldn't take several years.

There's nothing here.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:31:07

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:23:30

Link to new Indian variant. So far only one on google.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/first-confirmed-case-indian-coronavirus-variant-

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:32:06

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:31:07

It was removed? Why?

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:37:22

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:31:07

Just posted on google 5 minutes ago. Indian variant in CA.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/double-mutant-covid-19-variant-found-in-the-bay-area/2509887/

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? Phillipa

Posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2021, at 20:54:27

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2021, at 18:23:30

I still think this 'there is a new strain worse than the old strain and old vaccinations don't work anymore!!!' is presently *wishful thinking* on behalf of the mRNA vaccination people. Because their vaccinations are better to handle quick updates. So... If the virus does evolve to require an update to the vaccine then (crudely) they win the vaccination Olympics!! Less crudely, that is a significant boon for their mechanism of delivery.


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/how-covid-19-vaccines-work.html

I can't read the link anymore... I think there was a clear statement of the different technology that the different vaccines worked on...


> Thanks chimps it is then.

Yes. It is a DNA vaccine. It goes into the DNA (but is not thought to be capable of replicating itself). The cell then transcribes it into mRNA which is translated into spike proteins that induce the body to make antibodies to the spike proteins.

> I had forgotten about the mistaken half doses being given that produced a more robust response than the original two dose vaccine.

Yes. Sometimes the significance comes later.

> I think that one dose is better than 2 doses.

I think that more frequent, weaker exposures are more likely to produce long-term immunity. But long-term immunity isn't needed if you want to give people a new shot with the new strain every year (as they really really really really do).


> But I wonder if the fact that this vaccine must go through three steps to get to mrna could be a factor.

?

> I just know those I know here older people like myself most have had the Pfizer and have done extremely well.

Oh yes. Older people have had ALL THE TYPES and done really really really really well. We are worrying about very very rare events. Very very rare. Even in the AstraZeneca one...


> There has to be a connection in the process of getting to the mrna that causes the clotting.

I don't know.

I read that it was a recombinant vaccine and recombinant vaccines need an ajudcant and those can create immune system problems... But I can't find that again to process what it meeeeeeans or if it seems plausible to me.

(Do tell me to pipe down if you feel I'm hijacking).

((Phillipa))

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on April 6, 2021, at 20:35:12

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2021, at 20:54:27

News today. There is a risk of clots with this vaccine. The findings are going to be released tomorrow per Covid newsletter. Why those clots do form. It was hinted that birth control pills might be a contributing factor. Tomorrow going to be an update from the company. Phillipa

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 7, 2021, at 2:51:24

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on April 6, 2021, at 20:35:12

https://www.ebmconsult.com/articles/oral-contraceptive-clotting-factors-thrombosis-dvt-pe

it says here clots associated with birth control has to do with levels of estrogen, primarily, and that the estrogen raises the levels of clotting factors in the blood.

NZ just approved Janssen. I think it is our name for the Johnson one.

 

Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?

Posted by alexandra_k on April 7, 2021, at 2:53:05

In reply to Re: Why Did ASTRA ZENECA change name to Vaxzevria?, posted by alexandra_k on April 7, 2021, at 2:51:24

that means HRT could be an issue, too.


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