Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1113573

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Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:06:26

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:04:36

I think it makes a huge difference. At least for me.

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22

Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:06:26

Comirnaty: This is name that is filed for the Covid vaccine in Europe then. Where in the USA it's filed under the name Pfizer. Is this correct? Thanks. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2021, at 10:15:58

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18

There is something in our news now ('I once heard a man say') that there was a South African study saying that one of the vaccines in particular did not seem to offer much protection to young healthy people from non-lethal (mild symptoms of) Coronavirus.

I think the concern is that this finding shows this vaccine, in particular, to not be so suitable to give to the majority of front line health workers / border workers. The thought is that the mild symptoms mean they are infectious, I suppose. Mild enough for them to still be turning up to work so more likely to pass the virus on to vulnerable people without themselves being in any real danger at all.

New Zealand was planning (is planning still) on using the first doses that arrive in this country to vaccinate front line health and border workers.

New Zealand was not planning on vaccinating the vulnerable populations first.

The South African finding has not changed the New Zealand government's plan of using that particular vaccine to vaccinate front-line health workers and border workers first.

I suppose mostly because... Who is going to stop them from taking the vaccine for themselves?

I mean... It would be like trying to deny them to the board of a private I mean recently public-private merged therefore public hospital. Because of all the work the public healthcare workers do for the public ahem aha.

They are saying they will be all tracked in NZ. But given our governments track record of tracking... And who is tracking the trackers? And so on... The absurdity in that...

We recently had this fiasco of lead being found in water and not reported to the people. So the same people (public health) not capable of measuring lead in water offer free blood tests to measure lead in blood. And of course the public funded tests say they don't find lead.

Nobody was given money to go pay an independent lab to do an independent test.

The NZ government will not be held to account...

It is difficult. On the one hand -- I would be suspicious, indeed, of a vaccine that was supposedly specifically for vulnerable people.

_________

The games people play...

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 11, 2021, at 13:38:46

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18

They like to name drugs differently here. Causes lots of confusion. Here it is Comirnaty, that I know for certain.

> Comirnaty: This is name that is filed for the Covid vaccine in Europe then. Where in the USA it's filed under the name Pfizer. Is this correct? Thanks. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 11, 2021, at 13:41:00

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18

Pfizer is a drug company. It would surprise me if they had named the vaccine like the company.

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2021, at 14:37:48

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2021, at 20:51:50

Pfizer/BioNTech (Comirnaty).

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2021, at 17:57:25

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2021, at 14:37:48

Here so far the two being given are called Pfizer 2 doses three weeks apart. And then Moderna. Also 2 doses but 4 weeks apart. Johnson & Johnson different mechanism and only one dose vs two submitted now for emergency use now also. Doesn't have the higher 94-95% effectiveness rate about 68% I think. But it's been said works on the UK and South African variants. So much is still unknown. Still up in the air as to whether getting vaccine? Would you? Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:34:33

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2021, at 17:57:25

I don't think we are having access to Moderna at all, in NZ.

Information last updated 10 February 2021 from NZ Ministry of Health:

We (NZ) currently have agreements with 4 suppliers:

Pfizer and BioNTech (two doses 'about two weeks apart')

Janssen Pharmaceutica (likely to be single dose)
Novovax (two doses, likey not available until until later)

AstraZeneca (two doses fridge stable). Some reports may be ineffective for people over 65.

______________
opinion:

1) I think that Pfizer and BioNTech and Moderna are both rna vaccines. That's a new technology that they are very very hopeful will be better than previous. So... Experimental. They might turn out to be a lot better... They might... But they might not. Or they might need some ironing out of things... For example... They seem to be unclear whether it would be better to get two doses to the people 2, 3, or 4 weeks apart.

I don't know enough about vaccinations to have an informed opinion (not even a guestimate) as to which of those is more likely to be a better idea for what kinds of people. I mean, I don't have a stabby guess of an estimate of 'if these things apply to you I'd lean towards 2 weeks and if these things apply to you I'd lean towards 4 weeks'. No idea. I suppose we are waiting to see what happens. Truth be told.

That's why it's being rolled out differently. An experiment. Experimental vaccines.

The New Zealand people are the only people who have been told that ours are not being rolled out under 'emergency' provisions because things are in the experimental stage. The New Zealand people are the only people being told that our government has undergone it's standard or usual or normal or typical approvals process because New Zealand does not have community transmission so we are not in a state of emergency. We are in no hurry -- it is just that our borders are locked down... In the sense that arrivals need 2 weeks in a detention facility / quarantine on arrival and numbers of them allowed in at one time... are very limited.

These are the first vaccines to become available. So... They are getting to the young healthy people who are agressive or assertive enough to get themselves right up there first right at the head of the cue. That is to say the people on the boards of directors of recent public-private hospital mergers... (I'm griefing on that -- ) And the front line border workers and the like. Fit, healthy people who are likely to be most resilient if the vaccine turns out to have unpleasant effects. Which it doesn't seem to have had.

With the Janssen and Novovax...

I don't know where different States are at with the roll-out...

Those are the older types or styles of vaccination. Again, looks like they aren't sure what dose to give. One dose -- or does there need to be a follow-up dose? So different people are being offered different things. So they can see what happens. See what seems most effective at the population level.

______________

The issue that I have with all this... Is the same issue that I have with drug trials and inofrmation about drugs very generally... That is to say:

I don't care if psychoanalysis is not effective for 99.9 per cent of the non-Jewish population. I care about whether psychoanalysis is right for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. So... What is it about the people who it is effective for? What features of them make it effective? People say 'we don't know until we do the experiments' and there is SOME truth to that. But there's also a lot of truth to an intelligent mind and vicarious knowledge / learning and educated guesses and clinical experience and common-sense...

In quite a few respects... I am an outlier. I have had people make very very wrong or bad decisions about what would be best for me on the basis of assuming or requiring me to be average or whatever...

So... With psychiatric medications, too... If a drug turns out not to be helpful for half or even two thirds of a population... I still care whether it will be likely to help me... So... What is it about the people it helped? IN virtue of what did it help them?

Often they exclude the people like me... Which make the studies nonsense, too. Exclude the old, the young, those with co-morbidities... It's complicated...

Then to get started on the issue of corrution in science. People making up data. All of that...

__________________________

I think...
You don't care about what I would do...

You care about what I would do *if I were you*.
In some sense of you. I don't mean 'it would be better for ME if YOU did x or y or z'
But really...

By some empathetic process... If I could really imagine my way into your shoes...

Your age... The relevant features of your medical history... Your immune response... If you have a strong healthy immune system... Or if it takes you a bit longer to recover from things... If you have tendancy towards under or over response, I mean to say...

(Not that I know how that impacts on ideal times between doses yet)...

That's the thing..

ANd it could be a trade-off between better immunity to Covid now vs problems longer term... It could possibly turn out to be better to be just a little protected over a longer haul.

__________________

I don't know what I would do if I were you...

__________________

I suppose when I am offered the vaccine I would like to take it.

But I don't trust the NZ health system.

Last time I presented to the ER for a physical complaint they did not listen and they involuntarily detained me and sectioned me under the mental health act for assessment withotu proper cause... Because they were bored that hardly anybody was showing up to the hospital with the epidemic.

If I were you... Insofar as I can imagine myself into your shoes... Reasonable access to healthcare....

I would probably take the vaccination when it was offered to me -- yes.

for whatever that is worth.


 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:44:19

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:34:33

and then you have to consider logistics.

you can't hold people hostage to make sure they get their second dose in the time (on the day) they are supposed to get their second dose.

even if we aim or aspire for x group to have their second dose 2 weeks later... and y group to have their second dose 3 weeks later... and z group to have their second dose 4 weeks later...

it isn't like the doses come 2 per pack and they just keep your other one waiting for you...

and people will be no shows (they only get one dose).

and i suppose the thing with the hospital workers, really, is that they are there on hand.

apparently they come with 6 doses to a vial or something like that. and they stay in the fridge for up to 6 days once opened or something like that. that means healthcare workers are on hand for doses that might need to be thrown out otherwise...

it is logistically formidable. since you can't involuntarily detain people to ensure they get that second dose when they are told...

and you don't want a situation where people are scheduled appointments and they turn up and there isn't a dose for them. that's a very very very very very very very bad look. i think nobody wants that.

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:47:59

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:44:19

do you remember at some point there was something about a mistake in the UK trial...

people were given only 1/2 the dose they were supposed to get (oops)...

and it turned out that that was MORE effective than them having the dose they were supposed to get in the study / the trial.

they stopped the trial at that point.

because that's another thing... we talk about the number of doses... but how much of the vaccine is in each dose???

would it be better to have 1/2 a dose now and 1/2 a dose later? or 1/4 of a dose? that kind of a thing...

people like to criticise drug companies for over-prescribing...

but that might just have been what clinicians say to themselves in new zealand to justify giving patients only 1/2 doses of medications to save money / to syphon off medical supplies to the private sector...

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2021, at 20:44:43

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:47:59

In the USA. Pfizer is two doses 3 weeks apart & Moderna is 2 doses 4 weeks apart. And yes people have appointments at various locations. Some at pharmacies, some at grocery stores, some at huge vaccination events where they drive through in their cars and receive their vaccine. Some large events you arrive at your appointment times and walk into the building. Some doctors are now administering the vaccine in their offices. It varies but those who meet the criteria at the time do get both doses of vaccine. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 13, 2021, at 3:51:13

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2021, at 20:44:43

You are further with vaccinations than we are. The german government kind of messed it up. They didn't order enough of the vaccine. My dad is scheduled for the 25th February. I hope that he will be fine.

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22

Posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2021, at 9:35:36

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 13, 2021, at 3:51:13

With the new variants and with Johnson & Johnson just announcing that it looks like they are going to have to make vaccines for each. Starting to sound like the annual flu shots which I don't get. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:09:51

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2021, at 20:44:43

Do you mean that people aren't being offered one appointment / one dose...

They are being offered two appointments? So they are scheduled in for their second dose at the same time?

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:12:55

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 13, 2021, at 3:51:13

I think every place is saying they didn't order enough / didn't manufacture enough / they didn't ship them enough.

State of RI... There was criticism that they haven't vaccinated as many people (per head of population) as other states... But then the governer said something about how they were doing well at getting people the second dose, though, and they were leading in that...

And something about how 70 per cent of the doses had been administered...

Because, I guess, if you don't know when the next lot will arrive then you... Are supposed to keep 1/2 of them in wait for the second round of appointments that had already been booked...

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 14, 2021, at 5:19:29

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2021, at 9:35:36

New variants meaning the south african and british or are there even newer ones? Hope not. It really bothers me in the long haul. At first it was like "yeah maybe couple weeks of lockdown" that was different. Now it has been a year and we don't know if and when this bs will disappear!

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 9:24:30

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:09:51

Yes that is how it works here. When you receive the first dose you don't leave without the second appointment date. But when I signed up it said I had to schedule both doses at the same time. Got 2 dates in confirmation letter sent via computer. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 9:26:04

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:12:55

Yes that is correct. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22

Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 9:30:10

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 14, 2021, at 5:19:29

Yes there are many with newer ones that seem to appear daily. It's said that at least 2 years but this is the new normal. Masks need to continue to be worn , social distancing, and hand washing. Those that are vaccinated can still get Covid but milder cases and it's said they can become the asymptomatic carriers. So the masks will protect others. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 14, 2021, at 9:47:37

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 9:30:10

It sounds like normalcy is not anywhere in reach.

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Lamdage22

Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 10:42:41

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 14, 2021, at 9:47:37

I know frightening. Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? Phillipa

Posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 12:10:46

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 9:24:30

Right. Appointment with follow-up booked. It seems like the health system is broadly functional for you :)

I'm not sure we could pull that off, here. People are often lost to follow-up, here. I think, in some sense, we thought it was a worthy goal. The savings that could be made if only the people would give up this silly notion of having access to medical treatment.

From a psychological and also financial point of view there are people who are very invested in vaccines and vaccine development.

Apparently (I think I read this in Nature -- but I'm not sure)... The newer technology vaccines (the mrna ones) were really expensive to develop because of all the basic science level research that needed to go into developing them. And then the stuff for manufacturing. The stuff to keep them cold (maybe they need to be kept cold).

We might wonder... The cost of them... Are they worth it? What was wrong with the old way of doing things?

1) They are rolling out the mrna ones first... I guess it's a way of getting to do a large scale, co-ordinated, experimental trial to really get a handle on things like amount per dose, number of doses, spacing of doses...

2) The hope is that the research / investment in mrna vaccines will pay off because the benefits are:

2a) It is easier to change the 'instructions' in the vaccine. For example, present vaccines they can only choose a couple variants of influenza each year. They believe with the mrna vaccines they will be able to vaccinate against many many variants and also update the vaccines faster. To beat the evolution of influenza in the wild. That's a goal I do believe.

So they go on and on and on about how we are seeing new strains of Covid emerge...

And how our economies and lives are still in danger...

To justify the expense and experimentation that the world is currently undergoing with respect to mrna vaccine development.

I think *part of this* is going on. And a lot else, besides...

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 12:28:45

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 14, 2021, at 9:47:37

> It sounds like normalcy is not anywhere in reach.

sigh. i think there are definately aspects of 'new normal' about it.

i think most people are saying that some things are better now?

but people are missing some aspects...

we care about Covid because we've been given this story (and been presented with evidnence) of people (young seemingly healthy people) dying of Covid.

but there are other viruses, too... herpes viruses and the like... and these other viruses infect people and lie dormant in wait... and then kill them years later. cancers or whatever.

so... i think there is an element of people (unspecified) hoping that some of the hygeine messages are part of 'new normal'. hand washing and maybe we've learned to hold in our sneezes with wearing face masks...

lock-downs...

yeah. i don't know.

i think governments are trying to change economies...

it isn't sustainable a lot of what was going on in the world with migrant workers and the like. swarms of migrants like locusts in search of a better life... not finding the better lives they were seeking AND ruining things for us all. the situation -- not the migrants. the fact the people were forced to be migrants.

the new zealand government is required to allow citizens re-entry. the truth of it. the government doesn't want them here. we say 'brain drain' and 'bright flight'. but the truth of it is that the leaders here / the government here bullied them away / made things not good for them here so they set off for a better life...

but things got sh*tt**r and sh*tt**r and sh*tt**r here because the people fled instead of holding the people here to account. the people who come back see how things have de-evolved here... and if they are forced to stay here they are forced to help things progress here.

forced.

that's the kiwi way.

forced.

only treat the involuntary. everything must be done by force.

except the Covid vaccine roll-out of course. that isn't expediated under a state of emergency. there is no emergency justification for experimenting on the new zealand people. the people aren't being told that the vaccines are experimental. the people are being told that this is how the government always or typically or normally makes it's decisions about approvals. the vaccines were approved here under the normal or regular rules and not special dispensations because of a state of emergency.

after i said that... we got put back into lockdown and they are trying to rush getting the vaccine to the detention facility frontline health workers. quickly quickly quickly before someone seeks an injunction to stop them, i suppose.

because of the way teh government chooses to go about it's business... i don't trust them. i think it is likely our government quite particularly attempted (maybe even succeeded) in trading away the health of its people.

i wouldn't be surprised if they give half the people saline... or gave half the people their vaccine doses mixed with expired anasthetic... just to see what would happen. because there's no emergency here. just to see what would happen. there's no excuse.

where are the informed consent forms?

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k

Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 17:26:11

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 12:28:45

Required here to sign an online consent form which states what you are receiving is an emergency approved vaccine. It's your choice if you want to sign and receive the vaccine as it's technically still experimental without FDA approval. I had read the New Zealand had closed borders early on and the covid was non-existent there? Has Covid again returned to New Zealand? Phillipa

 

Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 15, 2021, at 0:30:02

In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 17:26:11

Our media are creating a constant panic. Is it the same in NZ and USA?


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