Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1025108

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is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 1:10:56

so, i dont do so well with the normal dopamine increasing meds such as adderall because of long term effects i get from them. i have anhedonia. i cant feel much of anything. i used to take cyproheptadine and helped a lot. i used to think was its serotonin blocking that helped, but later i found it it is the serotonin antagonisms indirect effect on disinhibiting dopamine release. now days cyproheptadine has stopped working..

i'm wondering if i could get similar results from a GABA antagonist? and do you think it would have an even greater effect on dopamine given tat GABA is called the "major inhibitory neurotransmitter"?

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by linkadge on September 8, 2012, at 5:54:35

In reply to is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 1:10:56

Too much dopamine can cause anhedonia

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? linkadge

Posted by Phillipa on September 8, 2012, at 9:57:52

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by linkadge on September 8, 2012, at 5:54:35

I always thought dopamine was stimulating? Causing anxiety? Phillipa

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by phidippus on September 8, 2012, at 15:14:25

In reply to is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 1:10:56

GABA antagonists are drugs which inhibit the action of GABA. In general these drugs produce stimulant and convulsant effects, and are mainly used for counteracting overdose of sedative drugs.

I don't think you want convulsions.

Check out this link:

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120322/Direct-link-between-GABA-activation-and-dopamine-suppression.aspx

What long term effects do you get from dopamine increasing meds?

Have you tried Nuvigil? Orexin neurons are activated by Nuvigil. Orexinergic neurons are found exclusively in the lateral hypothalamic area. Their activation is associated with enhanced pleasure-seeking and motivation as well as arousal. Orexinergic fibers project to the entire central nervous system.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 22:52:56

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by linkadge on September 8, 2012, at 5:54:35

yes, this is true. my anhedonia is from Mirapex that i took in 2009. it has been stuck with me. cyproheptadine seemed to work great for a little while.but now i need something else and i'm just hoping a GABA antagonist would do the trick if my doc can somehow prescribe.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 22:56:13

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938, posted by phidippus on September 8, 2012, at 15:14:25

yes Nuvigil is the last med that i tried. it did nothing for me. adderall doesnt help much either.
i believe it is just high doses of a GABA antagonist that causes convulsions. i mentioned it to my doctor at my last appointment for if Nuvigul doesnt work, and she said she would consider it but isnt sure how it would be prescribed since it is normally used in emergency rooms.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by phidippus on September 9, 2012, at 15:32:58

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 22:56:13

Flumazenil is the one I'd recommend then.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 9, 2012, at 21:46:41

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938, posted by phidippus on September 9, 2012, at 15:32:58

have you had it before?

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by phidippus on September 9, 2012, at 22:03:13

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 9, 2012, at 21:46:41

Yes, to reverse the effects of taking too many benzos one time.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by schleprock on September 9, 2012, at 22:29:54

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938, posted by phidippus on September 9, 2012, at 22:03:13

I've suffered from anhedonia recently (though mine was rather severe) and started taking Lyrica. I started feeling some relief only a few days after taking it (I'm also on benzos too, but they kept on wearing off.) Hopefully this stuff will work long term.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 9, 2012, at 22:58:38

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938, posted by phidippus on September 9, 2012, at 22:03:13

interestiing..

do you remember how Flumazenil made you feel?

@gilmour: i had considered something like Lyrics but i have had tried a benzo a few times before and after taking them i feel even more disconnected.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by phidippus on September 10, 2012, at 13:26:08

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 9, 2012, at 22:58:38

Fluazenil made me feel kind of up and racy. It wasn't unpleasant.

Lyrica is nothing like benzodiazapines. It has no affinity for GABA. It works by binding to the alpha delta subunit of voltage gated calcium channels.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2012, at 20:10:29

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938, posted by phidippus on September 10, 2012, at 13:26:08

you're not going to get a Flumazenil prescription for depression.

even if you did....there is zero clinical evidence that ity has any effect in anhedonia.

But, alas, as I remember from my last conversation with you a few years back...you seem to get some strange abstract theory in your mind about why some drug might help you and there is little I can do to convince you otherwise.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 10, 2012, at 21:20:55

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by linkadge on September 10, 2012, at 20:10:29

i believe you're referring to cyproheptadine when talking about my "strange idea"? i think you'd have to be since that is the only medicine that has ever helped me. you know it does share 5ht2c antagonism with prozac, right?

maybe you are right, maybe we should ignore anything that isn't labeled by the FDA as a medication that can be used to treat mood disorders, no matter how much sense it makes that it could have a benefit on someone. i'm just doing what everyone does and trying to follow a lead. when someone finds out one kind of medication helps somewhat, they try another medicine that might have the same end effect. it is weird how this is strange to some people.

i've been told by a few "medical professionals" that i am strange for thinking cyproheptadine helped me. and for thinking i have longterm effects from medication. but my doctor i see now listens to me. and she finally said something that makes sense. when someone has had a brain infection (encephalitis) that resulted in a coma, this can change the brain and make it very upredictable as to how their brain is going to respond to medication. for this same reason i am not allowed in many clinical trials.


why dont you keep your strange thoughts to yourself.


> you're not going to get a Flumazenil
prescription for depression.
>
> even if you did....there is zero clinical evidence that ity has any effect in anhedonia.
>
> But, alas, as I remember from my last conversation with you a few years back...you seem to get some strange abstract theory in your mind about why some drug might help you and there is little I can do to convince you otherwise.
>
>

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 11, 2012, at 0:16:40

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 10, 2012, at 21:20:55

i never had to go through life with anyone telling me that i have "strange ideas" about anything until i decided that those Cymbalta commercials looked so neat and went to a psychiatrist to try antidepressants. after this, my life went to hell. to these "medical professionals" i have no say in what kind of person i am. i apparently am not even able to understand what kind of mood i am in. i lack the ability to know how a medicine effects me. if i say it made me feel bad, they tell me i'm wrong.. when the real problem is their medicine sucks and they dont know what to do anymore. their last resort is to tell me i have no idea how i feel.
i used to be just a simple guy with mild depression until i started dealing with some of the shadiest doctors on Earth. now i'm just crazy.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by SLS on September 11, 2012, at 1:39:34

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 11, 2012, at 0:16:40

You are not crazy - just different.

Linkadge has an annoying habit of being right most of the time. However, I have learned that there is a surprising degree of interindividual differences in the way our brains are wired and controlled chemically. Two people can react in opposite ways to the same drug. This is both fascinating and frustrating.

It occurs to me that Geodon (ziprasidone) possesses a few properties that you might be interested in, as it is a potent 5-HT2c antagonist along with being a mild-to-moderate 5-HT and NE reuptake inhibitor:

DA2 antagonist
DA3 antagonist
5-HT1a agonist
5-HT1c antagonist
5-HT2a antagonist
NE reuptake inhibition
5-HT reuptake inhibition


Also, its sister drug, Latuda (lurasidone). It doesn't block 5-HT2c receptors or inhibit the reuptake of NE and 5-HT, but adds 5-HT7 receptor antagonism - something that is now being looked at for depression.

DA2 antagonist
5-HT1a agonist
5-HT1d antagonist
5-HT2a antagonist
5-HT7 antagonist


- Scott

 

flumazenil is probably acutely neurotoxic

Posted by iforgotmypassword on September 11, 2012, at 2:38:31

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 8, 2012, at 22:52:56

when given off-label it seems it's usually given with anticonvulsants to temper this. since it is used to reverse addiction, bafflingly with a number of substances (in private clinics it seems, probably for a lot of $$$), it may reverse tolerance, hence it may reverse anhedonia, fatigue and the like, if they are to be conceptualised in certain cases as being tolerant to one's own dopaminergic output, via too much glutamatergic feedback back to the system (usually from pfc i think, to the basal ganglia or vta, i forget which, i get these mixed up; in any case this mechanism in whichever way it's properly articulated is why people have experimented with memantine.)

sorry this became one unbreakable sentence somehow, my attention and effort is hard to steer and going back just makes me run into obstacles in my head and makes posting harder, less likely.

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? linkadge

Posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 4:46:00

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by linkadge on September 10, 2012, at 20:10:29

Linkadge is right.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 11, 2012, at 5:05:07

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? linkadge, posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 4:46:00

he probably is right about me not getting flumazenil.

 

Re: flumazenil is probably acutely neurotoxic iforgotmypassword

Posted by SLS on September 11, 2012, at 6:36:18

In reply to flumazenil is probably acutely neurotoxic, posted by iforgotmypassword on September 11, 2012, at 2:38:31

> when given off-label it seems it's usually given with anticonvulsants to temper this. since it is used to reverse addiction, bafflingly with a number of substances (in private clinics it seems, probably for a lot of $$$), it may reverse tolerance, hence it may reverse anhedonia, fatigue and the like, if they are to be conceptualised in certain cases as being tolerant to one's own dopaminergic output, via too much glutamatergic feedback back to the system (usually from pfc i think, to the basal ganglia or vta, i forget which, i get these mixed up; in any case this mechanism in whichever way it's properly articulated is why people have experimented with memantine.)
>
> sorry this became one unbreakable sentence somehow, my attention and effort is hard to steer and going back just makes me run into obstacles in my head and makes posting harder, less likely.

All things considered, that's not a bad sentence.

:-)

I appreciate the effort it takes for you to post.

You are probably right about flumazenil being neurotoxic. If it reverses the effects of BZDs, which it does, it would allow for rebound glutamatergic hyperactivity, which is generally thought to be toxic via its ability to flood the neuron with calcium ion.

Is there any evidence that dopaminergic function is affected by flumazenil?

Have a good day.


- Scott

 

Re: flumazenil is probably acutely neurotoxic SLS

Posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 17:28:06

In reply to Re: flumazenil is probably acutely neurotoxic iforgotmypassword, posted by SLS on September 11, 2012, at 6:36:18

"administration of the benzodiazepine receptor antagonist flumazenil (4 mg/kg, IP) elicited a marked increase (95 or 60%) in dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens"

That's a huge increase in dopamine.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 17:44:33

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 11, 2012, at 5:05:07

My understanding is that it is given as an injection and designed for one time use, not therapeutically, day too day.

Bottom line is the drug is designed to reverse the effects of benzodiazapines, period. The only off-label use this drug has had is in the treatment of Parkinson's.

Flumazenil will not treat your anhedonia. In fact, its likely the drug will do nothing for you.

There are many other ways to treat anhedonia that tried and true. Focus on those therapies.


Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 17:49:44

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 10, 2012, at 21:20:55

What did cyproheptadine do for you? Its an antihistamine and seratonin antagonist

"i'm just doing what everyone does and trying to follow a lead."

The GABA antagonist lead is bad. Pick another one.

What normal therapies have you tried, antidepressant-wise?

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938

Posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 17:51:40

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?, posted by poser938 on September 11, 2012, at 0:16:40

Paranoia really suits you well.

Eric

 

Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need?

Posted by poser938 on September 11, 2012, at 18:33:56

In reply to Re: is a GABA antagonist what i need? poser938, posted by phidippus on September 11, 2012, at 17:51:40

thanks man.

my doc prescribed Gabapentin today and she said to only get a 3 day fill of this. if it doesnt work we will be trying a GABA antagonist. she said it makes a lot of sense to try this next.


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