Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 962166

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Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 11:10:45

In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac, posted by linkadge on September 19, 2010, at 7:22:39

Linkadge,

You just described the concepts of the psychodynamic view of an OCD personality; obsessions-compulsions are the means by which the mind prevents unacceptable emotions from entering consciousness....

The emotions disavowed are a source of inner conflict because they contrast with what the sense of self one created and strives to maintain....there is no outlet for the emotion because it conflicts with your conscious sense of self-so it becomes that loop of ocd behavior to prevent the disavowed emotion(s) from emerging into conscious....some people are highly ocd because for whatever reason, that's the coping mechanism they developed; others use a mix of defenses to include ocd.

There are 2 poles involved that represent 2 seperate 'sense of self'. The conscious, like all things, tries to maintain an equilibrium-but cannot do so because those disavowed emotions defy the ego/self one tries to maintain, or even the idealized self...

I have ocd personality traits too; in psychoanalytic therapy, when the unconscious conflict came to consciousness, the ocd behavior diminished..because unacceptable emotion(s) gets 'discharged'. When this happened to me, when the emotions that were the primary source of conflict emerged in my awareness, it was the scariest affect state I ever had so far...

Of course this brought about emotional pain-and new symptoms to contend with! And there probably are some other conflicts i still hold inside by using ocd behavior-but the primary one was discovered, and the ocd behavior reduced dramatically. The unacceptable emotions need slowly integrated into the conscious...and the other ones blocked out by other defenses-which eventually leads to mental equilibrium...

Just imo i think the emotions are already there before the seratonin in whatever way alters how the mind has habitually kept those emotions out of consciousness.

Seratonin has been associated with aggression-nothing conclusive as far as i know-but any type of aggression/extroverted expression of anger is usually an unacceptable emotion-often a source of conflict with those with ocd traits.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 12:07:46

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER SLS, posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 10:08:10

Maxime,

My therapist said OCPD traits are among the highest he sees in patients...i don't know how common it is for a person to be pure ocpd, but this site has a good description of the inner world:

http://www.health.am/psy/more/ocpd_history_and_theoretical_perspective/

There's really not alot of material on this outside of books/private articles. Anyway, i think the defense mechanisms, as opposed to symptoms, are more useful in assessing personality traits. Chronic intellectualizing is usually the most obvious sign of ocpd traits, but most people have a mix of defenses, rather than pure ocpd; and often those with ocpd are unaware of all the defenses they use or much of the stuff described in the article anyway. Maybe your doctor has you pinned down as having other traits? Anyway, you can learn more about it and see what resonates. Hope it helps.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER

Posted by SLS on September 19, 2010, at 12:54:36

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER, posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 12:07:46

It might be helpful to approach the doctor using a term other than OCD, which probably does not apply and may confuse communication. OCPD might be more accurate and and allow the doctor to think of things outside of Axis I disorders.


- Scott

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Maxime

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 12:57:47

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER SLS, posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 13:00:27

OCPD is totally different from OCD. People with OCPD are rigid and perfectionistic, and have very high standards that they impose on themselves and others. They have high need for control. It is related to anxiety. OCPD is ego syntonic, while OCD is ego dystonic.

My husband was reading one of the books on OCD I had left around. He came to me all excited, saying "that's me!". It was the section on OCPD, not OCD. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_personality_disorder

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 14:01:17

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Maxime, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 12:57:47

> People with OCPD are rigid and perfectionistic, and have very high standards that they impose on themselves and others. They have high need for control. It is related to anxiety. OCPD is ego syntonic, while OCD is ego dystonic.

That's true, but the thing is-there is a continuum involved. Lots of people have OCPD traits, but don't meet that description, or maybe only in times of extreme stress involving lack of control (like when people get "adjustment disorder"). The link i posted has some detail about the inner object relations & self state of OCPD. Also, other traits can compensate or even hide OCPD traits which come out later in life-such as in a time of physical illness when there is little control. Most people do have an element of control over lots of situations in life-employment, marriage...sometimes OCPD only gets symptomatic when their is less control...but before it gets symptomatic, it can cause dysthmia and other symptoms.

I don't even know the proporation of psychiatrists who are psychodynamically trained. Just because the DSM 'list of criteria' for OCPD is not met, for example, doesn't mean someone doesn't have strong OCPD traits. In my case, psychiatrists did not look into psychological traits because i don't technicially 'meet the dsm criteria' for a PD....

And people are often not pure OCPD, pure avoidant, pure whatever...people often have a mix of psychological issues. Anyway, just saying, it's important to look beyond those lists/brief descriptions...but rather, material that describes the inner world....but not alot is available online. Most is in psychodynamic books.

 

dystonic/syntonic? Dinah

Posted by floatingbridge on September 19, 2010, at 14:31:27

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Maxime, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 12:57:47

>OCPD is ego syntonic, while OCD is ego dystonic.

Dinah, so ocpd activity (behaviors) maintains ego sense? Are they experienced as self-directed or willed?

Ocd disturbs ego sense? Does one feel acted upon?

 

Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac linkadge

Posted by Deneb on September 19, 2010, at 14:56:40

In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac, posted by linkadge on September 19, 2010, at 7:22:39

The side effects of emotional blunting, apathy, etc, from SSRI's don't happen to everyone, and probably most people don't get them.

I'm on two SSRI's, 60mg Prozac and 20mg Celexa as well as 0.75mg Risperdal and I love life! Life is fun and magical for me and I want to life to be 120 years old.

There was a time I was pretty depressed and apathetic and I thought it was the SSRI that caused it. Pdoc didn't think so, but I convinced her to let me reduce my Celexa. Well, the opposite happened. I became even more depressed and apathetic! Then we decided to increase my Prozac and I love life again!

SSRI's don't lessen my ability to feel love. I love Dr. Bob as much as always! ((((Dr. Bob)))) LOL

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah

Posted by Maxime on September 19, 2010, at 15:45:55

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Maxime, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 12:57:47

> OCPD is totally different from OCD. People with OCPD are rigid and perfectionistic, and have very high standards that they impose on themselves and others. They have high need for control. It is related to anxiety. OCPD is ego syntonic, while OCD is ego dystonic.
>
> My husband was reading one of the books on OCD I had left around. He came to me all excited, saying "that's me!". It was the section on OCPD, not OCD. :)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_personality_disorder
>
>

Good lord. I am *so* OCPD. I am going to read up more about it. I have never heard about it before. It fits in well with my eating disorder and my desire to always have everthing perfect. I drive some people mad because I have really high standards for them as well. I get frustrated if they are not meeting my standards. And I don't thing anyone can meet standards because I set them so high. I can't even meet them and that is why I like control things like my eating disorder.

Wow! Interesting stuff.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah

Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:01:14

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Maxime, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 12:57:47

>OCPD is totally different from OCD.

Absolutely, they are different but there's a lot of confusion surrounding these terms. I have always suspected that most people on babble who say things like 'I'm so OCD' do not have obsessive-compulsive disorder. They are generally referring to obsessive-compulsive personality traits (althought not necessarily OCPD).

 

Lou's request-esesareiz

Posted by Lou Pilder on September 19, 2010, at 16:11:21

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:01:14

Friends,
If you are considering tasking an ssri or considering to wothdrawal from such, I am requesting that you view the followingvideo by Dr. Gary Kohls.
Lou
To see this video;
A. pull up google
B. Type in;
[youtube, ssris are, Dr. Gary Kohls]
you will see a picture of a man and the video is posted on March 2, 2009 and is 7 min

 

Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac Deneb

Posted by twinleaf on September 19, 2010, at 16:14:43

In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac linkadge, posted by Deneb on September 19, 2010, at 14:56:40

It's so important that you posted about your experience, It's so rare for anyone doing really well on SSRIs to say so on this forum. It's wonderful that they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, for you, and aren't doing any of the negative things. I hope your post will encourage others with a range of experiences- positive especially, but all kinds- to contribute. It's just great they've helped you so much! I think you've taken them for several years, haven't you?

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion...

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 16:20:56

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah, posted by Maxime on September 19, 2010, at 15:45:55

> It fits in well with my eating disorder and my desire to always have everthing perfect. I drive some people mad because I have really high standards for them as well. I get frustrated if they are not meeting my standards. And I don't thing anyone can meet standards because I set them so high. I can't even meet them and that is why I like control things like my eating disorder.

Harsh superego and control issues are prevelant with other disorders-especially borderline, and not necessarily a symptom of an OC personality. Superego issues-the 'inner critic' seems to go along with low self-worth., however the 'disorder' is expressed. Anyway, most people have a blend of traits and its good people are reading about them. i think it could benefit anyone in the mental health system since psychiatrists often overlook this stuff.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 16:22:51

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:01:14

According to the research, it seems even the professionals are confused about ocd vs ocpd! it's no wonder people here would be too.

 

Re: dystonic/syntonic? floatingbridge

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:27:00

In reply to dystonic/syntonic? Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on September 19, 2010, at 14:31:27

OCPD isn't necessarily considered a problem by people with OCPD. My husband thinks that the world would be a much better place if everyone was more like him.

While OCD is experienced as intrusive thoughts.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:34:27

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:01:14

If you're face to face with it, it's easier to see the difference.

My husband has OCPD. He's never been to a therapist or psychiatrist to be diagnosed. But my therapist is confident that my husband's self assessment was correct. He's not the most extreme sort, but it is obvious.

He also has some OCD traits, but you can tell the difference when he's exhibiting one vs the other. *He* can tell the difference too.

I have OCD. My husband considers it unfortunate that I don't have more OCPD traits. :)

I wish they'd change the name. It's not the same thing at all. Both of them come from anxiety, but that's about it.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah

Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:37:43

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:34:27

I guess you could say that OCPD traits can sometimes be beneficial; OCD is always harmful.

 

Re: dystonic/syntonic? floatingbridge

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:39:18

In reply to dystonic/syntonic? Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on September 19, 2010, at 14:31:27

For example, I used to get the intrusive fear that I ran over someone, or left my dog in the car. I knew that of course I didn't run over anyone or leave the dog in the car, but I felt compelled to check to make certain. The thoughts were intrusive. I didn't consider them to mesh well with my actual knowledge and beliefs.

OCD is known as the doubting disease.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER ed_uk2010

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:42:42

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:37:43

I think that's largely true.

Although I do forget less when my OCD is acting up. When your brain is constantly scanning for what you might have left undone, and sending all sorts of false or true messages, every once in a while it's right.

That's what makes it so insidious.

I think I did also realize that my OCD flares up when I'm under stress. I sometimes wonder if it's my brains way of distracting me from my real worries by focusing on things I logically know can't have possibly happened.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah

Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:46:57

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER ed_uk2010, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:42:42

There are things which I probably ought to be worrying about which I'm not, instead I'm busy with OCD thoughts..... well not at the moment fortunately, but I sometimes am.

 

Yes! Precisely. ed_uk2010

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:48:02

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER Dinah, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 16:46:57

It's not usually adaptive.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER violette

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:51:31

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER, posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 16:22:51

It might help to think about OCPD as what people call "anal".

Also, OCD usually is extremely unpleasant to the person who has it, while OCPD is more unpleasant to the people around the person who has it.

My husband really does get upset by his OCD fears.

But the OCPD traits seem perfectly natural and normal to him, even though I try to remember that he's attempting to manage anxiety through control of his environment (and the people in it).

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion..

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 16:54:48

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 16:34:27

> I wish they'd change the name.

I wish they'd change the name of anything that precedes "PD". Schitzotypal PD was already moved to axis I by the ICD-10..as it's basically a mild form of schitzophrenia (where did they ever think it was related to one's character?!) hopefully, others will be combined too. I don't see any of them character related, they all seem like mental illness just the same.

OCDP is considered to be more 'neurotic' than 'character'-related (because of higher-level defense mechanisms used)...and can often be adaptive rather than maladaptive.

But most people with strong OCPD are constricted emotionally-where people with strong cluster B traits will be emotionally outward. Cluster B being considered the 'dramatic' personalities.

For ocd vs ocpd-i think the difference is related to OCD anxiety being more in the pre-conscious, where OCPD is conflict mostly more unconscious...where the difference lies in defense mechanisms used. Like your husband, i can always tell when i get 'ocd anxiety'...which stops when the conflict comes to my conscious.

But i'm highly anxious and have different 'types' of anxieties..it was interesting when i began to recognize which are fear-based vs conflict related...anxiety is so common!

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion..

Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2010, at 17:10:12

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion.., posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 16:54:48

> For ocd vs ocpd-i think the difference is related to OCD anxiety being more in the pre-conscious, where OCPD is conflict mostly more unconscious...where the difference lies in defense mechanisms used. Like your husband, i can always tell when i get 'ocd anxiety'...which stops when the conflict comes to my conscious.

I've never really understood analytic concepts.

All I know is that OCPD is more an attempt to control one's environment to control anxiety. While OCD is intrusive thoughts and urges.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion...

Posted by Maxime on September 19, 2010, at 18:06:33

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 16:20:56

> > It fits in well with my eating disorder and my desire to always have everthing perfect. I drive some people mad because I have really high standards for them as well. I get frustrated if they are not meeting my standards. And I don't thing anyone can meet standards because I set them so high. I can't even meet them and that is why I like control things like my eating disorder.
>
> Harsh superego and control issues are prevelant with other disorders-especially borderline, and not necessarily a symptom of an OC personality. Superego issues-the 'inner critic' seems to go along with low self-worth., however the 'disorder' is expressed. Anyway, most people have a blend of traits and its good people are reading about them. i think it could benefit anyone in the mental health system since psychiatrists often overlook this stuff.

Yes, actually I have not been diagnosed with Borderline as such but I have been told that I have Borderline traits. That's why I did a DBT programme.

 

Re: suicidality exhaustion...

Posted by violette on September 19, 2010, at 18:36:53

In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by Maxime on September 19, 2010, at 18:06:33

i think most people have a mix of traits...not sure if you were aware, but since you mentioned you were in DBT because you thought you had some BPD traits, doesn't mean DBT is the only therapy that you could do...alot of people like DBT, i think it's a good program too, but I think it's more for symptom management as opposed to lasting change (i mean to change your inner state as opposed to behavior), psychodynamic therapy works better for inner state imo...which is also indicated for ocpd.

If you happen to be interested...you seem very curious with understanding yourself, you could google Otto Kernberg, Transference Focused Therapy. He's a well-known expert on Borderline and personality organization/structure. He uses borderline to broadly describe a type of personality organization rather than specific 'symptoms' associated with BPD (if my memory serves me correct, i think i just read this recently).


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