Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 947486

Shown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker

Posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 9:04:29

I loked a bit more at Robert Whitakers work
and I know he is trying to sell a book about the subject but even so, there is at least some scientists out there who have made studies showing that ADs could do more bad than good in the long run:

http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Depression.html
Try and look at some of the links to the articles.

For me personally this could make sense as my uni-polar depression will not go away by it self after 2,5 years of treatment.

How many people who suffered a moderate-major dep episode do you know of that eventually tapered off meds and stayed well?

My psyc keeps saying: When no symptoms in 6 months you can start to consider to tapper off.
But I never reach this, it seems, could be me doing something wrong with my life, stress etc., but I always fall back in some dark holes before I reach this symptom free level. It feels like a fata morgana - it will never happen...

 

More on ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker

Posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 11:19:53

In reply to ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker, posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 9:04:29

http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Home/Home.html

 

Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna hansi555

Posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2010, at 11:42:27

In reply to ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker, posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 9:04:29

> I loked a bit more at Robert Whitakers work
> and I know he is trying to sell a book about the subject but even so, there is at least some scientists out there who have made studies showing that ADs could do more bad than good in the long run:
>
> http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Depression.html
> Try and look at some of the links to the articles.
>
> For me personally this could make sense as my uni-polar depression will not go away by it self after 2,5 years of treatment.
>
> How many people who suffered a moderate-major dep episode do you know of that eventually tapered off meds and stayed well?
>
> My psyc keeps saying: When no symptoms in 6 months you can start to consider to tapper off.
> But I never reach this, it seems, could be me doing something wrong with my life, stress etc., but I always fall back in some dark holes before I reach this symptom free level. It feels like a fata morgana - it will never happen...

hansi555,
Thank you for posting the link to the articles.
You wrote,[...studies showing...in the long run...this could make sense...how many..do you know...fall back...].
It sounds as if you are wanting to be freed from depression and have thought that by taking chemicals into your system that your depression would be gone, or cured, or some other way of looking at it, but that now you have doubt about that.
There is a lot of research concerning the placebo effect in relation to the taking of psychotropic chemicals.
A question that your post raises is, could the taking of antidepressants lead to a worse situation in relation to depression?
more...
Lou

 

Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna Lou Pilder

Posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 12:58:12

In reply to Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna hansi555, posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2010, at 11:42:27

The main reason why I started with an AD was due to TOTAL insomnia.

This was a result of stress: I was doing 3 peoples job at work, trying to sell the old house after buying a new one, new born baby that wouldnt sleep - all at the same time.

Eventually I got a feeling of dizziness so i was sent home, very confussed.
One month after I have stopped working I experienced a HUGE nightmare - the mother of all evil nightmares - I truly dreamed I died, so when I woke up I couldnt tell if it was this or the after world.
After this, the TOTAL insomnia hit me and even sleeping pills would only keep me asleep for 1-2 hours - everytime I lay down to sleep, my body thought I was going to die hence keeping me from sleeping would keep me alive. I also got some benzos, did not like the feeling after waking up on those - flet like a zombie.

As the weeks went I also ate less and less. So after 6 weeks my regular doc said that we could try something called Remeron - way better than sleeping pills and not addictive - BTW it was also an AD, she told me. Well that sounded ok to me - much better than those "dangerous" sleeping pills + benzos. And I was not depressed as such, just down as the whole situation was life situation/career threatening.

Then after taking remeron for 2 weeks (I could sleep and did eat again) out of the blue came crying spells. I suddenly just cried. Hmmm.
At THAT time I was depressed. And I know that lack of appetite and insomnia can be symptoms of depression. But still it seemed kind of odd to me - and still does.

As the crying spells and feeling sad became even worse, the doc (now a real psychiatrist) set me up to 45 mg remeron, then 60 mg. It worked for some weeks, then I was down down foe some weeks, it was really an on-off experience.

And then after 3 months he added Lexapro and cut down on the remeron. That did only little to improve things. After another 4 months Nortriplyline came along, now my main drug. The situation became more stable but not in the long run.

I still get sad and cry for no good reason, now it will normally only last a couple of days, then I have some very good days and some ok days.

To me the lows are something like mild to moderate depression, rest of the time is normal to mild dep.

So have I been helped by these meds or have they made it worse, prolonged the dep. or even made me addictive?

 

Re: ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker

Posted by linkadge on May 15, 2010, at 15:01:43

In reply to ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker, posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 9:04:29

Sometimes I have not got better *until* I came off a certain medication.

Linkadge

 

Re: ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker

Posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2010, at 17:11:49

In reply to Re: ADs doing more bad than good? R. Whitaker, posted by linkadge on May 15, 2010, at 15:01:43

I know that feeling not all meds fit. Phillipa

 

Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna

Posted by chujoe on May 15, 2010, at 19:04:32

In reply to Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna hansi555, posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2010, at 11:42:27

Lou writes: "...by taking chemicals into your system... There is a lot of research concerning the placebo effect in relation to the taking of psychotropic chemicals...."

Does this mean that the good results are from the placebo effect, but the bad effects are from the drug?

Also, what is the difference, in principle, between the "chemicals" Lou talks about and, say, aspirin? Aren't they all chemicals? Aren't tea and coffee full of chemicals that change our moods? And chocolate? I ask this question in perfect sincerity: What is the difference between my ingestion of Ritalin and Cymbalta and my ingestion of coffee and chocolate?

 

Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna

Posted by MrTook on May 17, 2010, at 14:20:41

In reply to Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna, posted by chujoe on May 15, 2010, at 19:04:32

"I ask this question in perfect sincerity: What is the difference between my ingestion of Ritalin and Cymbalta and my ingestion of coffee and chocolate?"

I myself this question a lot. The only difference I can think of is that there is a lot more history of taking coffee and chocolate then there is of Ritalin and Cymbalta. Not clinical history, but rather, just history.

 

Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna MrTook

Posted by chujoe on May 17, 2010, at 15:50:07

In reply to Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna, posted by MrTook on May 17, 2010, at 14:20:41

Right, I'll grant that. But that doesn't mean there is a difference in principle. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think psych meds are "miracle drugs" or "silver bullets," but I also don't get how thewy are supposed to be so some other category altogether that is somehow unnatural. Humans have been running experiments since they climbed down from the trees by putting stuff in their bodies: "Hmm, I feel good when I eat that," Hmm, I feel bad when I eat that." "Hmm, what did he eat just before he dropped dead?" And it wasn't too long after we climbed down from the trees that we began brewing beer & smoking various things & fermenting fruit to make wine, and so on. In a society that's functioning reasonably well, such substances are a boon to life -- despite the fact that some people will abuse or misuse whatever substance they are attracted to. Same with psych meds -- we ought to be as careful as possible, but it just seems unproductive to demonize them.

As I write this I'm a couple of months into taking Cymbalta & a couple of weeks into taking Ritalin. I haven't felt this focused, this happy & productive, for years. Could it all go south in a hurry? Sure. Could it stop working or lead to further complications later? Could be. But what I have is today, with a reasonable chance of being this way into the foreseeable future, I'll take the gamble. Better than the wasted state I was in previously.

 

Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna

Posted by MrTook on May 18, 2010, at 13:26:38

In reply to Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna MrTook, posted by chujoe on May 17, 2010, at 15:50:07

I agree with you 100% that the medications should not be demonized. I was just trying to answer your question :) I get worried because people just haven't taken these medicines for all that long of a time.

In the immortal words of Mr. Rumsfeld "there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know"

In my estimation the risk to me is well worth the relief I have received from my SSRI.

 

Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna MrTook

Posted by chujoe on May 18, 2010, at 13:57:35

In reply to Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna, posted by MrTook on May 18, 2010, at 13:26:38

Yeah, I didn't intend to get in your face, it's just that there has been a real backlash lately against psych meds. And I agree we need to be careful and not just mix 'n match.

 

Lou's request-chahlkvknw MrTook

Posted by Lou Pilder on May 23, 2010, at 21:52:13

In reply to Re: Lou's response-phatahmoarghanna, posted by MrTook on May 18, 2010, at 13:26:38

> I agree with you 100% that the medications should not be demonized. I was just trying to answer your question :) I get worried because people just haven't taken these medicines for all that long of a time.
>
> In the immortal words of Mr. Rumsfeld "there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know"
>
> In my estimation the risk to me is well worth the relief I have received from my SSRI.

Mr.Took,
You wrote,[...the medications should not be demonized...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. what is a demon?
B. What does it mean to {demonize}?
C. If there is a God in relation to what you are wanting to mean here, which God is the one that you are referring to?
D. If that God, if there is one in what you are referring to, does in fact have commandments to those that give service and worship to that God concerning the taking of mind-altering drugs, then could the worshipers of such God be obeying that God's commandments to them? If so, (redacted by respondent)
E. other questions if the above are responded to.
Lou

 

Redirect: demons and God

Posted by Dr. Bob on May 28, 2010, at 14:06:14

In reply to Lou's request-chahlkvknw MrTook, posted by Lou Pilder on May 23, 2010, at 21:52:13

> A. what is a demon?
> B. What does it mean to {demonize}?
> C. If there is a God in relation to what you are wanting to mean here, which God is the one that you are referring to?
> D. If that God, if there is one in what you are referring to, does in fact have commandments to those that give service and worship to that God concerning the taking of mind-altering drugs, then could the worshipers of such God be obeying that God's commandments to them? If so, (redacted by respondent)

Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding demons and God to Psycho-Babble Faith. Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20100403/msgs/949267.html

That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,

Bob


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