![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by sowhysosad on October 22, 2009, at 8:47:51
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:43:48
> Again ( not wanting to beat a dead horse) but P drugs are different than other more exacting medications.
> For example, if you have 100 people with high-blood pressure...an overwhelming percentage approaching 100% WILL react to blood -pressure medication, by experiencing a DROP in their BP after starting treatment. While some of the 100 may beed a slightly different BP Med...ALL will show a measurable drop in blood pressure with the proper med, dose and time.
>
> Take the same 100 people and give them a Psych Med...and a much lower percentage will respond with such precise cause-and-effect.I think the the issue here that "depression", "anxiety" and "bipolar disorder" are catch-all terms for a huge spectrum of similar disorders with different genetic, biochemical and psychological causes.
It's very convenient for psychiatry and the drug industry to lump them all in together as a handful of conditions, but there are very different things happening under the skin for different people.
Perhaps that would explain why even highly effective psych meds won't work for as large a proportion of people as a blood pressure med.
Posted by bulldog2 on October 22, 2009, at 9:14:45
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:58:23
> I also have a related question to this entire Topic.
>
> It is my understanding that many of the AD's work by inhibiting the re-uptake of certain select
> chemicals produced in our Brain. I will use this example, since this is a medication I was on for many years..Zoloft
>
> Definitions of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor on the Web:
>
> an antidepressant drug that acts by blocking the reuptake of serotonin so that more serotonin is available to act on receptors in the brain
> ===========================================================
>
> My question is this.....if our brain naturally gets rid of the serotonin, and we interfere with that by causing it's uptake to be slowed...how can this be healthy ?????
> Is there not a good REASON that our bodies are designed to dispel this and other mood altering chemicals? Is this not upsetting the natural balance that was intended to exist in our brains?
>
> Im sure this question has been poised before, but I have always wondered about it, so I thought I would ask.
>
> Thanks
> BFI'm not so sure the comparison between a high blood pressure med and a psych med is not valid. The bp med controls symptoms and does not cure. It also does it in a manner that disrupts natural body functions. Often one med does not work and another type of bp med is chosen. Sometimes a combo is needed. Sometimes one stops working and another is needed. Not that much different really than psych meds. Keep tinkering with the body until a desired result is produced. For all I know my bp med may be causing some unknown damage with it's disruption of natural processes to lower my pressure.
The alternative people might say I need to get my body in balance with diet exercise and blah blah blah. Well I've dieted and erercised and my pressure is still high. So I take my meds.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2009, at 9:29:55
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 18:15:35
> I know we are not supposed to say anything derogatory about another persons opinions and I know you are a very intelligent person and I know that I am going to get barred for saying this sometimes I think you talk utter crap.
>
> Denise> someone else, like you in this case, [blows] a gasket
>
> And no, seeing a line named Mercury on a graph...green at the bottom, yellow in the middle, red at the top...with your own line in the middle of the red is no big deal. That line that says lead, the one that is even higher than mercury line, no big deal. Just because those are two of the most toxic substances on the planet and they are hanging out forever in your receptors and glands doesn't mean anything in terms of mood disorders.
>
> bleauberryPlease don't be sarcastic or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Also, follow-ups regarding alternative treatments should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Alternative.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by bleauberry on October 22, 2009, at 16:17:03
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:58:23
You ask a very good question. I cannot put into words my distrust of reuptake inhibitors, but it is somewhere in the vein of what you said about it not being a natural function. For example, once serotonin is used, some of it gets recycled, some of it breaks down into a metabolite that is also important for mood, and some of it goes to melatonin. We upset several balances when blocking the reuptake pump.
I think my general frown on reuptake inhibitors was born when we started seeing the strange phenomenon of post-ssri syndrome after longterm usage. Of course, it took over a decade before these things started to pop up. It is not a bonafide syndrome by medical standards and has not been researched. But we see it. I can't help but think...again, without explanation or reason...that longterm disruption of the reuptake pump screws up a bunch of other stuff that rely on that flow.
If more serotonin, NE, or DA is needed at the synapse, that is easily accomplished with 5htp, dlpa, or tyrosine.
I do not have the same frown about MAOIs. That's because I know from my own genetic testing and other patients of my doctor that some people have unusually high MAO activity and others have unusually low MAO activity. A longshot hypothesis, but maybe one of the factors determining who is a Type A personality and who is a depressive personality. Manipulating the slowness or fastness of MAO enzymes is not much different than what our own natural genes do. Which makes that whole mechanism a completely different ballgame than reuptake inhibitors, which are not natural functions at all.
But that is just one person's view of an entirely complex topic that is badly lacking in research.
> I also have a related question to this entire Topic.
>
> It is my understanding that many of the AD's work by inhibiting the re-uptake of certain select
> chemicals produced in our Brain. I will use this example, since this is a medication I was on for many years..Zoloft
>
> Definitions of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor on the Web:
>
> an antidepressant drug that acts by blocking the reuptake of serotonin so that more serotonin is available to act on receptors in the brain
> ===========================================================
>
> My question is this.....if our brain naturally gets rid of the serotonin, and we interfere with that by causing it's uptake to be slowed...how can this be healthy ?????
> Is there not a good REASON that our bodies are designed to dispel this and other mood altering chemicals? Is this not upsetting the natural balance that was intended to exist in our brains?
>
> Im sure this question has been poised before, but I have always wondered about it, so I thought I would ask.
>
> Thanks
> BF
Posted by bulldog2 on October 22, 2009, at 19:00:45
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 22, 2009, at 16:17:03
> You ask a very good question. I cannot put into words my distrust of reuptake inhibitors, but it is somewhere in the vein of what you said about it not being a natural function. For example, once serotonin is used, some of it gets recycled, some of it breaks down into a metabolite that is also important for mood, and some of it goes to melatonin. We upset several balances when blocking the reuptake pump.
>
> I think my general frown on reuptake inhibitors was born when we started seeing the strange phenomenon of post-ssri syndrome after longterm usage. Of course, it took over a decade before these things started to pop up. It is not a bonafide syndrome by medical standards and has not been researched. But we see it. I can't help but think...again, without explanation or reason...that longterm disruption of the reuptake pump screws up a bunch of other stuff that rely on that flow.
>
> If more serotonin, NE, or DA is needed at the synapse, that is easily accomplished with 5htp, dlpa, or tyrosine.
>
> I do not have the same frown about MAOIs. That's because I know from my own genetic testing and other patients of my doctor that some people have unusually high MAO activity and others have unusually low MAO activity. A longshot hypothesis, but maybe one of the factors determining who is a Type A personality and who is a depressive personality. Manipulating the slowness or fastness of MAO enzymes is not much different than what our own natural genes do. Which makes that whole mechanism a completely different ballgame than reuptake inhibitors, which are not natural functions at all.
>
> But that is just one person's view of an entirely complex topic that is badly lacking in research.
>
> > I also have a related question to this entire Topic.
> >
> > It is my understanding that many of the AD's work by inhibiting the re-uptake of certain select
> > chemicals produced in our Brain. I will use this example, since this is a medication I was on for many years..Zoloft
> >
> > Definitions of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor on the Web:
> >
> > an antidepressant drug that acts by blocking the reuptake of serotonin so that more serotonin is available to act on receptors in the brain
> > ===========================================================
> >
> > My question is this.....if our brain naturally gets rid of the serotonin, and we interfere with that by causing it's uptake to be slowed...how can this be healthy ?????
> > Is there not a good REASON that our bodies are designed to dispel this and other mood altering chemicals? Is this not upsetting the natural balance that was intended to exist in our brains?
> >
> > Im sure this question has been poised before, but I have always wondered about it, so I thought I would ask.
> >
> > Thanks
> > BF
>
>Amino acids need to go through a conversion process to become neurotransmiters. Certain enzymes are needed for that process. The body often becomes tolerant to the excess amino acids after only a couple weeks so that does not work.
You say you do not trust reuptake inhibitors. The old tcas were also reuptake inhibitors so that process is not new with but with the ssris the selectivity of serotonin is.
You mention ST John Wort as a natural alternative. SJW works primarily as a reuptake inhibitor of serotonin. Though it is much weaker than pharmaceuticals.
One has to be careful with herbs. They are also drugs and can be harmful.
I do agree with you on the maois. It would seem that inhibiting mao and making fresh neurotransmitters is a healthier process than inhibiting the reuptake of a specicific neurotransmitters.
> > My question is this.....if our brain naturally gets rid of the serotonin, and we interfere with that by causing it's uptake to be slowed...how can this be healthy ?????
> > Is there not a good REASON that our bodies are designed to dispel this and other mood altering chemicals? Is this not upsetting the natural balance that was intended to exist in our brains?
> >If the natural balance were working correctly than one would not be depressed and there would not be a need for an antidepressant.One could also make the argument that if taking an ssri makes me feel better than is it not correcting an imbalance?
Just some food for thought.
Posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 5:17:52
In reply to Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 10:18:11
> Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
>
> Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
>
> BFDarn, why did I have to find this thread when I have to go to work? There is so much I want to say. But let me respond to BF's post.
For those of you not familiar with my story, I started taking psych meds in 95. In 2006, after being concerned about horrendous side effects, including a hearing loss from Remeron, I decided to taper my meds which was then a 4 med psych cocktail.
I mostly tapered at 10% of current dose every 3 to 6 weeks although a few times, I cheated. But BF, if you are going to become med free, tapering slowly is the key. I can't stress that enough.
When you felt severe depression after CTing an antidepressant, that was not proof your illness had returned. The cold turkeying caused severe withdrawal symptoms.
Anyway, I am now down to one med Doxepin at around 4.1mg. My tapering stalled in August due to suffering severe rebound insomnia. It is better but I don't feel stable enough to continue tapering.
I have been able to do this in spite of dealing with adversity such as the death of a family member and job instability. I now have a permanent job.
I also use supplements and a form of self CBT. BF, I am not sure what my pre-medicated state was but I have learned to recognize the thought patterns that got me placed on meds. I am not saying everyone can do this as an FYI.
As far a mainstream docs vs. alternative folks, I don't have use for either as none of them were helpful regarding my insomnia problems. The mainstream folks' solution is more meds while the alternative folks attitude is the same as mainstream folks which is my neurotransmitters need balancing which is bunch of BS in my opinion.
Finally, while this hasn't been easy and there will be withdrawal symptoms even when tapering slowly, I feel so much better. I don't regret my decision at all and feel it is one of the bests I have made in my life.
Gotta run. I will read posts more closely when I have time and I may post more.
49er
Posted by SLS on October 23, 2009, at 5:47:28
In reply to Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 10:18:11
> Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
>
> Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?I imagine you will have some people encouraging you to either stop or maintain drug treatment based upon their own experiences or the opinions they have developed over time for various reasons.
I would say that it is possible to discontinue medications and remain well, especially if the medications have been taken for over a year and are tapered gradually. However, there is always the danger that if one goes on to relapse, returning to the same drugs will be rendered ineffective. It is a gamble. However, one can get a better idea of what to bet on based upon their diagnosis and case history.
- What is your current diagnosis or symptom cluster?
- How old were you when your depression emerged?
- How many episodes of depression did you have before starting your current medication regime?
- How long were you continuously depressed for before starting treatment?
- Is there any family history of mental illness?
- Scott
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2009, at 7:14:37
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 22, 2009, at 16:17:03
Thanks for your thoughts bleauberry....it is nice to know that I am not alone in questioning this process, since the prescribing MD's or PDocs that I have visited never once mentioned, or were able to explain my question.
What we do know for sure....is that SSRI's and SSNI's do improve mood in the vast majority of cases...so that IS good news to the moderate to severely depressed and of course individuals whose depression has worsened to the point of suicide idealization or worse...
I guess the long-term effects and weighing the Benefits vs Risk is an individual decision.
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2009, at 7:23:33
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bulldog2 on October 22, 2009, at 19:00:45
Buldog2 you wrote: "
If the natural balance were working correctly than one would not be depressed and there would not be a need for an antidepressant.One could also make the argument that if taking an ssri makes me feel better than is it not correcting an imbalance?
Just some food for thought.
=============================================================Good point.
Historically speaking....the practice and study of Antidepressants is still in it's infancy.
Depression and Anxiety are as old as man himself.We know that self-medicating with alcohol, cannibus, poppy, etc...has been going on for centuries in one form or another, along with many other methods.
Perhaps in 50 years, are children and grandchildren will look back on today's medicines as primitive and incomplete .....much in the same way we today look upon the invention of the Telegraph compared to the advent of the Internet!
Only time will tell....but at least today's methods of dealing with psychological illness have evolved from some pretty primitive attempts in the past~
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2009, at 7:26:59
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Buckeye Fan, posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 5:17:52
Thanks 49er...
I appreciate you sharing your story of slow tapering ..and I look forward to your follow-up post(s) as time allows.BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2009, at 8:11:00
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Buckeye Fan, posted by SLS on October 23, 2009, at 5:47:28
> > Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
> >
> > Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
>
> I imagine you will have some people encouraging you to either stop or maintain drug treatment based upon their own experiences or the opinions they have developed over time for various reasons.
>
> I would say that it is possible to discontinue medications and remain well, especially if the medications have been taken for over a year and are tapered gradually. However, there is always the danger that if one goes on to relapse, returning to the same drugs will be rendered ineffective. It is a gamble. =======================================================
Thanks for joining in SLS....
You make a statement I have heard or read several other times during my research, namely...that once a tapered has occurred...and major symptoms return, that THE SAME DRUGS WILL BE RENDERED INEFFECTIVE........any idea WHY this is?
As I stated, I have read this on more than one occassion, but never remember reading an explanation as to why this may occur.
Anyone with knowledge and/or experience on this ....I would welcome your input...
However, one can get a better idea of what to bet on based upon their diagnosis and case history.
=======================================================================
Since this is a sharing, helping website and resource...I would like to answer your questions that I might get some opinions on my personal options.
>> - What is your current diagnosis or symptom cluster?
MY CURRENT SYMPTOM IS DEPRESSION....and was diagnosed by a PDoc as moderately to severely depressed.
He switched my medication from 200mg's of Zoloft, to 50 mg's of Pristiq.
I had been on Zoloft since the late 1990's...but over the period between Nov 2008 and July 2009...my mood steadily worsened, and it seemed the Zoloft was no longer effective.>
> - How old were you when your depression emerged?
In hindsight...I guess I had a few episodes of depression as a child, I was always anxious, coming from an alcoholic environment in childhood
so I would have to say ANXIETY was the hallmark of my emotional life since those early years.To the best of my recollection, I had my first Major Depressive Episode as a Senior in High School....then another 4 years later while in College. This episode was accompanied by my first full-blown Panic Attack.
I sought no treatment...and gradually came out of the depression in time ( many months...close to a year and a half later)I then had a major depression free period for the next 8 years. I cannot explain why...I just know that the several isolated incidents in my past never came to my mind, I knew very little ( almost nothing) about depression back then...nor that my extreme anxiety was not "normal" )
Then about 15 years ago I had a series of Panic Attacks, and sleep disturbances that grew increasingly worse.....causing me to seek treatment. First with Xanax...and then a couple years later Zoloft was added to the mix.>
> - How many episodes of depression did you have before starting your current medication regime?A continual and worsening depression for 9 months
How long were you continuously depressed for before starting treatment?About 9 months.....
> - Is there any family history of mental illness?
Yes.....though undiagnosed.
My father was adopted...so I have 50% of my medical past a mystery. I do remember that he self-medicated with alcohol, was pretty insecure antisocial and withdrawn.On my Mother's side...I have been able to see in her ( she is still living) a definite pattern of mood swings, depression, all untreated since she gives no credibility to mental illness treatment
She is "Old School" in her thinking, and was raised with 10 siblings in an alcoholic family.
ased on my observaton over the years of her and her siblings....there is indeed a history of mental illness in our family line.>
> - ScottWow...that is the first time I have put all that down in writing.
It would appear that I have inherited a genetic pre disposition to depression and anxiety.
So the question is....can I become Med Free now..after being on Meds for roughly HALF of my adult life.BF
Posted by bulldog2 on October 23, 2009, at 9:47:43
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 23, 2009, at 8:11:00
> > > Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
> > >
> > > Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
> >
> > I imagine you will have some people encouraging you to either stop or maintain drug treatment based upon their own experiences or the opinions they have developed over time for various reasons.
> >
> > I would say that it is possible to discontinue medications and remain well, especially if the medications have been taken for over a year and are tapered gradually. However, there is always the danger that if one goes on to relapse, returning to the same drugs will be rendered ineffective. It is a gamble. =======================================================
>
>
> Thanks for joining in SLS....
> You make a statement I have heard or read several other times during my research, namely...that once a tapered has occurred...and major symptoms return, that THE SAME DRUGS WILL BE RENDERED INEFFECTIVE........any idea WHY this is?
> As I stated, I have read this on more than one occassion, but never remember reading an explanation as to why this may occur.
> Anyone with knowledge and/or experience on this ....I would welcome your input...
>
>
>
>
> However, one can get a better idea of what to bet on based upon their diagnosis and case history.
> =======================================================================
>
>
> Since this is a sharing, helping website and resource...I would like to answer your questions that I might get some opinions on my personal options.
> >
>
> > - What is your current diagnosis or symptom cluster?
>
>
> MY CURRENT SYMPTOM IS DEPRESSION....and was diagnosed by a PDoc as moderately to severely depressed.
> He switched my medication from 200mg's of Zoloft, to 50 mg's of Pristiq.
> I had been on Zoloft since the late 1990's...but over the period between Nov 2008 and July 2009...my mood steadily worsened, and it seemed the Zoloft was no longer effective.
>
>
>
> >
> > - How old were you when your depression emerged?
>
>
>
>
> In hindsight...I guess I had a few episodes of depression as a child, I was always anxious, coming from an alcoholic environment in childhood
> so I would have to say ANXIETY was the hallmark of my emotional life since those early years.
>
> To the best of my recollection, I had my first Major Depressive Episode as a Senior in High School....then another 4 years later while in College. This episode was accompanied by my first full-blown Panic Attack.
> I sought no treatment...and gradually came out of the depression in time ( many months...close to a year and a half later)
>
> I then had a major depression free period for the next 8 years. I cannot explain why...I just know that the several isolated incidents in my past never came to my mind, I knew very little ( almost nothing) about depression back then...nor that my extreme anxiety was not "normal" )
>
>
> Then about 15 years ago I had a series of Panic Attacks, and sleep disturbances that grew increasingly worse.....causing me to seek treatment. First with Xanax...and then a couple years later Zoloft was added to the mix.
>
>
>
> >
> > - How many episodes of depression did you have before starting your current medication regime?
>
>
>
> A continual and worsening depression for 9 months
>
>
>
>
> How long were you continuously depressed for before starting treatment?
>
>
>
> About 9 months.....
>
>
>
>
>
> > - Is there any family history of mental illness?
>
>
>
> Yes.....though undiagnosed.
> My father was adopted...so I have 50% of my medical past a mystery. I do remember that he self-medicated with alcohol, was pretty insecure antisocial and withdrawn.
>
> On my Mother's side...I have been able to see in her ( she is still living) a definite pattern of mood swings, depression, all untreated since she gives no credibility to mental illness treatment
> She is "Old School" in her thinking, and was raised with 10 siblings in an alcoholic family.
> ased on my observaton over the years of her and her siblings....there is indeed a history of mental illness in our family line.
>
>
>
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
>
> Wow...that is the first time I have put all that down in writing.
> It would appear that I have inherited a genetic pre disposition to depression and anxiety.
> So the question is....can I become Med Free now..after being on Meds for roughly HALF of my adult life.
>
> BF
>
>
>I won't contribute any more to the alt med versus main stream med debate. Unfortunately it would seem from your history that you have a greater probablity to fall out of remission once off of meds than one who has fallen ill more later in their life due to a situation. I also have a genetic predisposition plus early traumatic experiences. I was drug free many times in my life but did pay the price of suffering depression, anxiety and panic attacks during those periods. I was hoping diet and exercise would cure me. It did not. I was looking for answers in alternative medicine. I did not find those answers.
Posted by bulldog2 on October 23, 2009, at 9:58:26
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bulldog2 on October 23, 2009, at 9:47:43
> > > > Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
> > > >
> > > > Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
> > >
> > > I imagine you will have some people encouraging you to either stop or maintain drug treatment based upon their own experiences or the opinions they have developed over time for various reasons.
> > >
> > > I would say that it is possible to discontinue medications and remain well, especially if the medications have been taken for over a year and are tapered gradually. However, there is always the danger that if one goes on to relapse, returning to the same drugs will be rendered ineffective. It is a gamble. =======================================================
> >
> >
> > Thanks for joining in SLS....
> > You make a statement I have heard or read several other times during my research, namely...that once a tapered has occurred...and major symptoms return, that THE SAME DRUGS WILL BE RENDERED INEFFECTIVE........any idea WHY this is?
> > As I stated, I have read this on more than one occassion, but never remember reading an explanation as to why this may occur.
> > Anyone with knowledge and/or experience on this ....I would welcome your input...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > However, one can get a better idea of what to bet on based upon their diagnosis and case history.
> > =======================================================================
> >
> >
> > Since this is a sharing, helping website and resource...I would like to answer your questions that I might get some opinions on my personal options.
> > >
> >
> > > - What is your current diagnosis or symptom cluster?
> >
> >
> > MY CURRENT SYMPTOM IS DEPRESSION....and was diagnosed by a PDoc as moderately to severely depressed.
> > He switched my medication from 200mg's of Zoloft, to 50 mg's of Pristiq.
> > I had been on Zoloft since the late 1990's...but over the period between Nov 2008 and July 2009...my mood steadily worsened, and it seemed the Zoloft was no longer effective.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > - How old were you when your depression emerged?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In hindsight...I guess I had a few episodes of depression as a child, I was always anxious, coming from an alcoholic environment in childhood
> > so I would have to say ANXIETY was the hallmark of my emotional life since those early years.
> >
> > To the best of my recollection, I had my first Major Depressive Episode as a Senior in High School....then another 4 years later while in College. This episode was accompanied by my first full-blown Panic Attack.
> > I sought no treatment...and gradually came out of the depression in time ( many months...close to a year and a half later)
> >
> > I then had a major depression free period for the next 8 years. I cannot explain why...I just know that the several isolated incidents in my past never came to my mind, I knew very little ( almost nothing) about depression back then...nor that my extreme anxiety was not "normal" )
> >
> >
> > Then about 15 years ago I had a series of Panic Attacks, and sleep disturbances that grew increasingly worse.....causing me to seek treatment. First with Xanax...and then a couple years later Zoloft was added to the mix.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > - How many episodes of depression did you have before starting your current medication regime?
> >
> >
> >
> > A continual and worsening depression for 9 months
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How long were you continuously depressed for before starting treatment?
> >
> >
> >
> > About 9 months.....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > - Is there any family history of mental illness?
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes.....though undiagnosed.
> > My father was adopted...so I have 50% of my medical past a mystery. I do remember that he self-medicated with alcohol, was pretty insecure antisocial and withdrawn.
> >
> > On my Mother's side...I have been able to see in her ( she is still living) a definite pattern of mood swings, depression, all untreated since she gives no credibility to mental illness treatment
> > She is "Old School" in her thinking, and was raised with 10 siblings in an alcoholic family.
> > ased on my observaton over the years of her and her siblings....there is indeed a history of mental illness in our family line.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow...that is the first time I have put all that down in writing.
> > It would appear that I have inherited a genetic pre disposition to depression and anxiety.
> > So the question is....can I become Med Free now..after being on Meds for roughly HALF of my adult life.
> >
> > BF
> >
> >
> >
>
> I won't contribute any more to the alt med versus main stream med debate. Unfortunately it would seem from your history that you have a greater probablity to fall out of remission once off of meds than one who has fallen ill more later in their life due to a situation. I also have a genetic predisposition plus early traumatic experiences. I was drug free many times in my life but did pay the price of suffering depression, anxiety and panic attacks during those periods. I was hoping diet and exercise would cure me. It did not. I was looking for answers in alternative medicine. I did not find those answers.Oh but I did usually self medicate during those drug free periods (doc prescribed psych meds). I used darvon as my ad for nearly 15 years.
From my experience when history and genetics expressed early as mental illness the chances are good that when off meds you will have periods where you fall ill. Not necessarily all the time.
Posted by JohnJ777 on October 23, 2009, at 15:11:26
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » bulldog2, posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 18:42:04
You say "waiting for two to three months for Rhodiola to kick in" - man, if that is your experience, you've got the wrong product. I started taking Mind Body SPirit brand and had the desired results in two weeks, or less. I think you need a major overhaul of your supplement cupboard. Perhaps you are buying them in a store? You can't get good Rhodiola in a store.
Posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 16:36:31
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 11:04:14
BF,
If you do decide to taper, I would taper one drug at a time and leave the Trazadone for last since it is a sleeping med.
When you taper Pristiq, do not stop taking it cold turkey. 50mg is the lowest dose right? I can give you suggestions as to how to taper it and my advice is free.
<< I have tried to go med-free befOre ( not totally)
and I have never been able to get past the withdrawl and depression>I know I sound like a broken record but taper at the rate I suggested. When I resume tapering Doxepin, I am going to have go even more slowly than 5% of current dose. Yes, it is a pain in the neck but I want to be off the drug permanently. If it take forever to taper it so I can have a decent quality of life, so be it. That is the attitude you need to have.
People on Paxil Progress Board have reported being unsuccessful in tapering before succeeding because they did it slowly.
<<I wonder if I should try it alone...or go into a Rehab program.( I hate the thought of confinement and the fact it will become part of my medical history)>>
DO NOT GO INTO A REHAB CENTER. They will treat you like an addict and load you up with drugs to help you taper very quickly. Kind of defeats the purpose.
You don't have to go at it alone. http://www.paxilprogress.org is very supportive. It is run by an RN whose son became psychotic on Paxil due to tapering schedule that was way too fast. He is off Paxil and is fine.
<<Also.....what will the real "ME" be like, unmedicated ??????? Will the symptoms return ???>>
You won't know who real "you" is until you are a few years off meds. But the best piece of advice I can give you if you do decide to taper or even if you don't is to accept who you are right now.
For example, right now, I have a horrible memory from withdrawal and let's just say it can be embarrassing and a downer. But I have to accept that this is the way it is and simply figure out how I can minimize the symptoms. Beating myself up will simply put me down a path I don't want to go.
Tapering off of meds doesn't guarantee you won't get depressed. By the way, when I started tapering, I prayed that I would have a few years of peace before anything happened. Silly me for thinking that.
Anyway, the family member got ill and then died. As I previously mentioned, I dealt with job instability until finally being hired permanently.
But believe it or not, this was the best thing that happened to me as strange as that sounds. I learned very early that I could cope with whatever challenges that I was dealt with. Heck, if I could deal with a family member dying, what else could be so bad?
What I am saying BF is that tapering is going to be one of the hardest things you do if you chose to go this route. I am not going to sugarcoat things.
But it is also one of the most rewarding things I have done at the same time. And again, tapering slowly is the key.
49er
PS - Please babble mail me if you want to talk further.
Posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 16:40:24
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Buckeye Fan, posted by Phillipa on October 20, 2009, at 10:35:58
> Good question I often ask myself the same question or is it like thyroid problems where you need them for life. Although mine don't work switching didn't work either. Do any meds work? Chemo can cause remission but so many get cancer again is it like that? Phillipa
I don't think they do. I am too lazy to find the supporting links
Anyway, when I was suffering those side effects, they sure weren't working.
Interesting comment about chemo drugs. Maybe I am not looking in the right place but I haven't found any statistics that point to its effectiveness.
If I had incurable cancer, I would not undergo chemo and torture myself like that.
49er
Posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 16:50:43
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:58:23
> I also have a related question to this entire Topic.
>
> It is my understanding that many of the AD's work by inhibiting the re-uptake of certain select
> chemicals produced in our Brain. I will use this example, since this is a medication I was on for many years..Zoloft
>
> Definitions of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor on the Web:
>
> an antidepressant drug that acts by blocking the reuptake of serotonin so that more serotonin is available to act on receptors in the brain
> ===========================================================
>
> My question is this.....if our brain naturally gets rid of the serotonin, and we interfere with that by causing it's uptake to be slowed...how can this be healthy ?????
> Is there not a good REASON that our bodies are designed to dispel this and other mood altering chemicals? Is this not upsetting the natural balance that was intended to exist in our brains?
>
> Im sure this question has been poised before, but I have always wondered about it, so I thought I would ask.
>
> Thanks
> BFBF, you nailed it
Also, keep in mind that SSRIs don't just affect Serotonin which then leads to more disturbances.
Posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 17:01:56
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bulldog2 on October 22, 2009, at 9:14:45
> I'm not so sure the comparison between a high blood pressure med and a psych med is not valid. The bp med controls symptoms and does not cure. It also does it in a manner that disrupts natural body functions. Often one med does not work and another type of bp med is chosen. Sometimes a combo is needed. Sometimes one stops working and another is needed. Not that much different really than psych meds. Keep tinkering with the body until a desired result is produced. For all I know my bp med may be causing some unknown damage with it's disruption of natural processes to lower my pressure.
> The alternative people might say I need to get my body in balance with diet exercise and blah blah blah. Well I've dieted and erercised and my pressure is still high. So I take my meds.>>Bulldog, here is a link to foods that help high blood pressure:
http://www.healthcentral.com/high-blood-pressure/c/35150/26425/blood/
Even if you have tried this, maybe it can help someone else.
By the way, even though I think we have different positions on meds, I completely agree with you about the alternative folks. I actually have more contempt for most of them then I do psychiatry.
I think they are taking advantage of people who are dissatisfied with psychiatry and to me, that is even more disgusting. Not all of them but quite a few.
49er
Posted by bulldog2 on October 23, 2009, at 18:33:10
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » bulldog2, posted by 49er on October 23, 2009, at 17:01:56
> > I'm not so sure the comparison between a high blood pressure med and a psych med is not valid. The bp med controls symptoms and does not cure. It also does it in a manner that disrupts natural body functions. Often one med does not work and another type of bp med is chosen. Sometimes a combo is needed. Sometimes one stops working and another is needed. Not that much different really than psych meds. Keep tinkering with the body until a desired result is produced. For all I know my bp med may be causing some unknown damage with it's disruption of natural processes to lower my pressure.
> > The alternative people might say I need to get my body in balance with diet exercise and blah blah blah. Well I've dieted and erercised and my pressure is still high. So I take my meds.>>
>
> Bulldog, here is a link to foods that help high blood pressure:
>
> http://www.healthcentral.com/high-blood-pressure/c/35150/26425/blood/
>
> Even if you have tried this, maybe it can help someone else.
>
> By the way, even though I think we have different positions on meds, I completely agree with you about the alternative folks. I actually have more contempt for most of them then I do psychiatry.
>
> I think they are taking advantage of people who are dissatisfied with psychiatry and to me, that is even more disgusting. Not all of them but quite a few.
>
> 49er
>
>
Many of alternative docs are not covered by med insurance. They tend to need tons of expensive tests. I think many of them are charlatans that take advantage of people who have not been helped by conventional medicine and drain people of money. How many of them treat the poor. These docs have clinics that charge outrageous prices. So they offer medicine that few can afford.As I stated before alt med is like finding a needle of truth in a haystack of outragous claims. Sure some of them have have find processes that work but figure out who these people are. Basically right now alt med is a big unregulated mess.
Another thing when I used to browse on alt med websites advertising the latest miracle product. There were always testimonials. Were these testimonials even real? I suspect many of them were made up.
I just don't have time for this any more. Spent to many years reading books and buying products that cost me a lot of money and delivered nothing.
Sorry for the rant. But see to many people getting ripped off and being made false promises.
Posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2009, at 19:39:26
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? 49er » 49er, posted by bulldog2 on October 23, 2009, at 18:33:10
Are some of them here too? Just curious. Phillipa
Posted by bulldog2 on October 24, 2009, at 11:43:20
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? 49er » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on October 23, 2009, at 19:39:26
> Are some of them here too? Just curious. Phillipa
I don't know. By the way where do you purchase your seaweed. It is quite pricey!
Posted by Sigismund on October 24, 2009, at 18:39:53
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? 49er » 49er, posted by bulldog2 on October 23, 2009, at 18:33:10
>Many of alternative docs are not covered by med insurance.
Yes
>They tend to need tons of expensive tests.Yes
>I think many of them are charlatans that take advantage of people who have not been helped by conventional medicine and drain people of money.I don't know. Some of them are trying to do less harm. It's not as if anything is wonderfully effective.
>How many of them treat the poor. These docs have clinics that charge outrageous prices. So they offer medicine that few can afford.Quite right.
Posted by bleauberry on October 24, 2009, at 21:05:06
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Sigismund on October 24, 2009, at 18:39:53
> >Many of alternative docs are not covered by med insurance.
>
> YesBut some are. One I saw took Blue Cross. Even if they aren't, as long as they provide the "medical codes" for classifying your symptoms and the reason for the visit, you can usually get reimbursed for 50% of the visit from your insurance company by submitting a claim to them for each visit (instead of the usual 80% that is automatically taken care of without any work on your part).
Most insurance companies do allow you to see doctors outside of their programs, which is most integrative docs. What is important is that the clinician is an MD.
>
>
> >They tend to need tons of expensive tests.
>
> YesYes and no. They don't need them. They like to see them for a bigger picture, but they can do without them. Symptoms speak pretty clearly to someone who knows their stuff. I do not believe cheaper run-of-the-mill tests done in mainstream medicine offer any benefit because they often miss the obvious. Even if they were cheap, it was money thrown away, because they looked for the wrong things. I feel it is better, if tests are going to be done, to use targeted pinpointed ones specific for the symptoms, which mainstreet doctors don't use.
>
>
> >I think many of them are charlatans that take advantage of people who have not been helped by conventional medicine and drain people of money.Then they should be reported to The Better Business Bureau and the State Medical Board. It is a blessing that patients have options when mainstreet doc fails. The patient does carry responsibility, in terms of approving which tests to do or not, and asking tough questions. The patient is the paying customer...the boss...the doctor is providing a service. It is up to the patient to get what he/she is paying for, or fire the underachiever. I've seen 3 different integrative MDs...two were certainly knowledgable but missed the obvious (Lyme) while the third was equally knowledgable but had a keen eye. Like anything else in life, you gotta shop to find the best deal. Same with mainstreet doctors, of which 90% were a disappointment to me. The fact that they were "cheap", as in my insurance paying for them, was totally worthless, because what good they were able to do for me was likewise worthless.
>
> I don't know. Some of them are trying to do less harm. It's not as if anything is wonderfully effective.Things can be wonderfully effective. The problem is that human physiology and disease are so complex. We know so little. Much greater research is needed. With so many diseases, syndromes, and symptoms, we are still years or decades away from having answers. No matter what course we choose, it is almost all experimental...whether it be mainstreet docs or integrative docs, meds or herbs, or combinations of any of the above. But when the right approach is found, wonderful effectiveness abounds in thousands of stories across the country in some very serious diseases.
In most of those success stories, it was the patient themselves that guided the journey to victory, with the doctor playing a supporting role but not a leadership role.>
>
> >How many of them treat the poor. These docs have clinics that charge outrageous prices. So they offer medicine that few can afford.Two of the three that I saw take medicare, medicaid, and the State's program for the poor.
>
> Quite right.You gotta shop around.
I've made several posts in this thread. It kind of got off track a bit. But to reiterate, my answer to the question "Is Becoming Med Free a Reality", my answer is the prognosis is very good but no guarantees. It is a different ballgame however. The rules are different. The patient plays a larger role than merely sitting in an office chair and letting someone behind the desk run their life.
It requires care for the entire body, not just the area where the symptoms are manifesting themselves. Because so often, those symptoms are coming from somewhere else in the body, not the site where they are actually seen. Detective work.
In the end, one or two supporting meds may still be needed, though doses and number of meds should be greatly reduced from where they were previously needed, aided by the intervention of the actual cause of symptoms, targeted specific supplements or plants, and strategically chosen food choices. If you or me were to add our names to the list of ones who won victory over the disease without meds, we would be the newest on a list of many thousands before us. It happens every day.
Each case is different.
Posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2009, at 21:36:01
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? 49er, posted by bulldog2 on October 24, 2009, at 11:43:20
It's hand havested on Sigi's beach. It comes from a long way away. Would you like some? Love Phillipa Sigi hope you don't mind that I gave away our secret income. Just kidding of course.
Posted by delna on October 25, 2009, at 4:17:38
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? 49er » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on October 24, 2009, at 21:36:01
Hi,
I am actually quite saddened to find this conventional vs alternative (heated) debate happening here. This is a medication board, after all.People on this board (including myself) are here to discuss psych drug treatments because we have 'chosen' that route. We have all been through our personal battles and may/may-not have tried other things. I, for one am here for support with my drugs and to support others who are also trying new regimes or suffering side effects or simply need some input on what they might expect from a certain drug.
(BTW, although I appear to be new here, I have been here, silently, for many years and have been greatly helped by peoples inputs to my one-off questions or by simply reading existing med threads.)What started as a simple tread about the possibility of being med free sadly turned into a alt vs psych treatment battle. Only few posts made any real comment on the original question.
Its frustrating to argue with people who are anti-psychiatry and considering this is a psychiatry board we shouldn't have to justify why we are taking drugs. I find it depressing to 'stumble' upon such a thread because this is something many of us have had to hear our whole lives- that making simple changes to our lifestyles will cure us and taking the drug route is........well, I don't know what.
If you have had positive effects with alt therapies it would be more considerate to post those on the other board...I am not a touchy person but I felt a bit offended by some of the posts that made me feel like I was somehow taking the easy (or even stupid) way out of my problem.
Dr Bob has kindly created a board especially for people who believe in or practice alternative therapies.I'm sure anyone who is inclined towards alt treatments will be drawn there and discover possible things that may benefit them.
This is the board: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/
Thanks for your understanding...
Take care
Love
DPS: No offense meant to anyone at all. I just had to share how this thread made me feel.
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