Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 903272

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

med to prevent instability?

Posted by garnet71 on June 26, 2009, at 2:18:31

I have an appt. in a couple of weeks with the psychiatrist/analyst I've been seeing, but am concerned. I'm not thinking oh i have psychosis, but am a bit concerned something will come out from stressors/pressures. Are there things prescribed that can prevent a breakdown? and if I did have an underlying psychotic disorder or something else, wouldn't it be better to just "leave it in there" considering I've been pretty functional all these years/almost 40 and that it may never emerge if I prevent it now?

It's just that I failed a test yesterday, i mean i got like a 20% because I couldn't even set up the problems to even be able to do all the subsequent calculations. I was having a panic attack while I was taking it, and felt anxious about getting out a bottle of meds in class to take xanax; it wouldn't have worked quick enough anyway. not that I would have done good anyway, I studied, stayed up all night, but realized I studied wrong when i saw the exam. I got a C on my last exam in another class. I'm not sure if I can pass the MS program if I fail that class, i don't know how that works in grad school. I just know that I have to have a B average to graduate and that class is a requirement.

Lots of other stressors, like I have $200 in parking tickets piled up in my car, and they keep coming because I have not had enough money to buy a parking pass and can't do the 4 hour a day commute on buses, a big pile of unopened bills here, medical problems I haven't yet addressed since getting health insurance back, ect. Well there's a lot of stuff....

But I don't feel I have depression or mood problems besides anxiety, but are mood stabilizers generally used for this sort of thing? I feel if i have a breakdown, I'll never recover/get back to normal and my whole life will fall apart.

I don't think i can get an appt. w/ a new pdoc sooner, I can probably get in with a new psychoanalyst soon, but am not sure if i want to do that therapy right now and do not think they would scribe meds during initial visit. I guess I could go to my school clinic, but they don't have psychiatrists for walk in; i really want someone experienced. I think I'll try that. I jsut can't go on an SSRI cause they take away my motivation and make me depressed and fatigued.

I guess xanax would prevent a breakdown? But i don't think it's good to keep taking it, this new doctor gave me too much and I've started to take it regularly w/the high anxiety levels. I need to switch to something else.

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by morganpmiller on June 26, 2009, at 4:00:14

In reply to med to prevent instability?, posted by garnet71 on June 26, 2009, at 2:18:31

If you have anxiety, most likely you have some underlying depression. Depression and anxiety go hand in hand. Anxiety is often how depression manifests in some people.

If you have any potential for psychosis you want to do your best to find a qualified doctor and get to the bottom of it. Then you can do what you need to prevent it.

So you have been on every SSRI?

I do not think xanax will prevent a breakdown. It has too short of a half life. In my opinion, xanax can be destabilizing for some over time. It acts more like a drug than a medication. Some here may disagree, but I and others I know have experienced the destabilizing effect of xanax first hand.

A low dose of a mood stabilizer may help with anxiety and destabilization. If you feel like your on the brink of a possible breakdown, you need to take action now for sure. You need to find a good doc and see what they say.

Do you workout or do yoga? What about meditation?(i know its hard to get into, especially if your high strung to begin with)

I would consider just going to the school clinic and tell them what's been going on. They may be able to refer you to someone.

If your just popping xanax without any other med to stabilize you, you find yourself needing more xanax and popping it more and more. This can turn into an addiction. Anything that is powerful enough to get addicted to will contribute more to your problems.

Whatever you do try to release some of that stress instead of popping a xany. Workout, run, swim, do yoga, bikram yoga, there's got to be something you can do. It's just building and the xanax is only covering it up temporarily.

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2009, at 10:35:50

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 26, 2009, at 4:00:14

Garnet sleep is what you need not all nighters. That will definitely increase anxiety. How bout a longer acting benzo? Phillipa

 

Re: med to prevent instability? garnet71

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 20:58:26

In reply to med to prevent instability?, posted by garnet71 on June 26, 2009, at 2:18:31

From what I can tell, what you have is OCD. You are obsessed with psychosis--you've mentioned it in three recent posts--and are likely engaging in compulsions to attempt to reduce the fear that you have it. (Seeking reassurance is one form of compulsions.) You are looking up psychosis online a lot aren't you? Checking to see if you have symptoms? Those are all compulsions.

This form of OCD--obsessional fear of schizophrenia or some form of psychosis--is a lot more common than you would think. Google "schiz OCD"--don't let the term freak you out--it isn't a form of combined schizophrenia and OCD--it's a layman's term for OCD that shows up primarily as a fear of "going crazy." You will see that lots of people struggle with this.

I have this OCD. The only, and I mean the ONLY, treatments for it are SSRIs and CBT exposure/response therapy. Ask experts *in the field of OCD* and they will tell you exactly that.

I can't talk with you further about this because 1) it is triggering for me (even though avoidance is a no-no) and 2) reassurance is a very bad thing to give someone with OCD. It only calms the distress *temporarily* and, in the long run, makes the whole thing worse. So if I don't respond further, that's why. It's a boundary I have to have--but I do hope that having this information will help you. If I had this info shortly after I developed the symptoms of OCD, I'd be a lot better right now than I am.

Learning to live with OCD fears is about learning to live with uncertainty. The mantra for OCD therapy is this: whatever you push away, comes back another day--with much more ferocity.

Before a person is diagnosed with OCD, they have no idea what is going on--and they are so afraid, and it feels natural to go looking for reassurance, be that in the form of a pill, in the form of reading material, in the form of reassurance from others. Heck, I wanted ECT just so I couldn't remember what it was I was afraid of--I wanted the memories of my fear to go away, because the memories were perpetuating the fear. You have no idea how freaked out I was, how much I convinced myself that I had schizophrenia. You sound like you are headed down the same path.

The only thing I can advise you is what an OCD expert would: get on an SSRI, get CBT therapy (with someone who knows about OCD and can do exposure and response with you). You can find experts in your local area at ocfoundation.org. Read up on OCD there. You will see that the treatments I recommend are what they recommend. OCD is an anxiety disorder, and SSRIs (or, Anafranil, a tricyclic) in combination with CBT are the recommended treatments you will find there.

> I have an appt. in a couple of weeks with the psychiatrist/analyst I've been seeing, but am concerned. I'm not thinking oh i have psychosis, but am a bit concerned something will come out from stressors/pressures. Are there things prescribed that can prevent a breakdown? and if I did have an underlying psychotic disorder or something else, wouldn't it be better to just "leave it in there" considering I've been pretty functional all these years/almost 40 and that it may never emerge if I prevent it now?
>
> It's just that I failed a test yesterday, i mean i got like a 20% because I couldn't even set up the problems to even be able to do all the subsequent calculations. I was having a panic attack while I was taking it, and felt anxious about getting out a bottle of meds in class to take xanax; it wouldn't have worked quick enough anyway. not that I would have done good anyway, I studied, stayed up all night, but realized I studied wrong when i saw the exam. I got a C on my last exam in another class. I'm not sure if I can pass the MS program if I fail that class, i don't know how that works in grad school. I just know that I have to have a B average to graduate and that class is a requirement.
>
> Lots of other stressors, like I have $200 in parking tickets piled up in my car, and they keep coming because I have not had enough money to buy a parking pass and can't do the 4 hour a day commute on buses, a big pile of unopened bills here, medical problems I haven't yet addressed since getting health insurance back, ect. Well there's a lot of stuff....
>
> But I don't feel I have depression or mood problems besides anxiety, but are mood stabilizers generally used for this sort of thing? I feel if i have a breakdown, I'll never recover/get back to normal and my whole life will fall apart.
>
> I don't think i can get an appt. w/ a new pdoc sooner, I can probably get in with a new psychoanalyst soon, but am not sure if i want to do that therapy right now and do not think they would scribe meds during initial visit. I guess I could go to my school clinic, but they don't have psychiatrists for walk in; i really want someone experienced. I think I'll try that. I jsut can't go on an SSRI cause they take away my motivation and make me depressed and fatigued.
>
> I guess xanax would prevent a breakdown? But i don't think it's good to keep taking it, this new doctor gave me too much and I've started to take it regularly w/the high anxiety levels. I need to switch to something else.

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by morganpmiller on June 26, 2009, at 22:04:07

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability? garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 20:58:26

You are definitely OCD..I just don't like the diagnosis of OCD because it rarely or never is something that not related to another issue. I've never met someone with OCD that does not have some other disorder/condition. I see OCD as more of a symptom of many other possible underlying condition. That said, therapy will help. So will medication.

You are obsessed for sure. Yet, that obsessiveness would not exist if it were not for something else that you are struggling with that needs to be addressed.

One of the main purposes for OCD is to distract us from that which really ails us. Then the OCD itself begins to hurts us as well. Same with Denial. We have this protective mechanisms but they usually end up hurting us even more than we already are.

 

Re: med to prevent instability? morganpmiller

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 23:20:33

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 26, 2009, at 22:04:07

Do you have any documentation or research to back up your theories? Having corresponded with and been treated by experts in the field (Jenike, Claiborn), I have to say that never, ever is there anything in the literature about "protective mechanisms" or "Denial." OCD is an anxiety disorder. Period. There are higher rates of depression and other anxiety disorders (not always, though) with people who have OCD, but it's a far leap from facts (statistics of comorbidity) to theories about origin. Moreover, I know a lot of people with OCD, and many do not have comorbid conditions.

OCD is a diagnosis, and like any diagnosis, one may like it or not like it, but the issue is whether it is valuable.

And yes, it is valuable. Because you don't treat OCD the way you treat other diagnoses. The treatment pathway for OCD is very, very clear.

IMO it is very dangerous to talk about "hidden" anything for any condition. That implies that talk therapy is needed. Again, I have clear documentation (and I pointed to it--at ocfoundation.org) written by experts in the field about treatment. It is not talk therapy. It is not psychodynamic uncovering of hidden conflicts etc.

It's fun to theorize, but dangerous to tell people that they have some conflict inside that they don't know about. If I misunderstand your post, sorry.

I don't understand why my posts invite other people to steer my topics in a direction of psychodynamic frameworks. I would not feel comfortable taking what someone else said and completely reframing it according to my view of the world.


> You are definitely OCD..I just don't like the diagnosis of OCD because it rarely or never is something that not related to another issue. I've never met someone with OCD that does not have some other disorder/condition. I see OCD as more of a symptom of many other possible underlying condition. That said, therapy will help. So will medication.
>
> You are obsessed for sure. Yet, that obsessiveness would not exist if it were not for something else that you are struggling with that needs to be addressed.
>
> One of the main purposes for OCD is to distract us from that which really ails us. Then the OCD itself begins to hurts us as well. Same with Denial. We have this protective mechanisms but they usually end up hurting us even more than we already are.

 

Re: med to prevent instability? )) Garnet

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 23:31:20

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 26, 2009, at 4:00:14

Garnet, I hesitate to tell you this because it will feed your fears, but having had a close relative with schizophrenia, and having actually studied it, I can tell you that there are risk factors, but you can't definitively "see it coming." If you really, really want to know about the schizophrenia prodrome (there is no "psychosis potential" or, in other words "psychosis prodrome" because what psychosis is, what causes it and what its symptoms are, depend on whether the psychosis is part of bipolar disorder, depression with psychotic features, schizoaffective disorder, or schizophrenia--psychosis is not one thing), then you can read about it here:

http://www.healthcentral.com/schizophrenia/c/76/3075/early-phase/

If you have any of the symptoms listed, then you should talk to a psychiatrist. I suspect you don't. Most people with the kind of fears you detail don't really even know what psychosis is like--they just know the word, and it scares the bejeesus out of them.


> If you have anxiety, most likely you have some underlying depression. Depression and anxiety go hand in hand. Anxiety is often how depression manifests in some people.
>
> If you have any potential for psychosis you want to do your best to find a qualified doctor and get to the bottom of it. Then you can do what you need to prevent it.
>
> So you have been on every SSRI?
>
> I do not think xanax will prevent a breakdown. It has too short of a half life. In my opinion, xanax can be destabilizing for some over time. It acts more like a drug than a medication. Some here may disagree, but I and others I know have experienced the destabilizing effect of xanax first hand.
>
> A low dose of a mood stabilizer may help with anxiety and destabilization. If you feel like your on the brink of a possible breakdown, you need to take action now for sure. You need to find a good doc and see what they say.
>
> Do you workout or do yoga? What about meditation?(i know its hard to get into, especially if your high strung to begin with)
>
> I would consider just going to the school clinic and tell them what's been going on. They may be able to refer you to someone.
>
> If your just popping xanax without any other med to stabilize you, you find yourself needing more xanax and popping it more and more. This can turn into an addiction. Anything that is powerful enough to get addicted to will contribute more to your problems.
>
> Whatever you do try to release some of that stress instead of popping a xany. Workout, run, swim, do yoga, bikram yoga, there's got to be something you can do. It's just building and the xanax is only covering it up temporarily.

 

I mean, if you have any of the positive symptoms

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 23:37:34

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability? )) Garnet, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 23:31:20

if you have any of the positive symptoms--hallucinations or bizarre thoughts--then see a pdoc right away. that's what I meant. obviously you have symptoms of anxiety and etc. but as the article says, these are totally nonspecific and most people have anxiety without having the prodrome. I suspect you aren't having bizarre thoughts or hallucinations. As I said in my last post, many people don't really even know what psychosis is about--they just know they are afraid of "losing their minds" or "going crazy."

> Garnet, I hesitate to tell you this because it will feed your fears, but having had a close relative with schizophrenia, and having actually studied it, I can tell you that there are risk factors, but you can't definitively "see it coming." If you really, really want to know about the schizophrenia prodrome (there is no "psychosis potential" or, in other words "psychosis prodrome" because what psychosis is, what causes it and what its symptoms are, depend on whether the psychosis is part of bipolar disorder, depression with psychotic features, schizoaffective disorder, or schizophrenia--psychosis is not one thing), then you can read about it here:
>
> http://www.healthcentral.com/schizophrenia/c/76/3075/early-phase/
>
> If you have any of the symptoms listed, then you should talk to a psychiatrist. I suspect you don't. Most people with the kind of fears you detail don't really even know what psychosis is like--they just know the word, and it scares the bejeesus out of them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > If you have anxiety, most likely you have some underlying depression. Depression and anxiety go hand in hand. Anxiety is often how depression manifests in some people.
> >
> > If you have any potential for psychosis you want to do your best to find a qualified doctor and get to the bottom of it. Then you can do what you need to prevent it.
> >
> > So you have been on every SSRI?
> >
> > I do not think xanax will prevent a breakdown. It has too short of a half life. In my opinion, xanax can be destabilizing for some over time. It acts more like a drug than a medication. Some here may disagree, but I and others I know have experienced the destabilizing effect of xanax first hand.
> >
> > A low dose of a mood stabilizer may help with anxiety and destabilization. If you feel like your on the brink of a possible breakdown, you need to take action now for sure. You need to find a good doc and see what they say.
> >
> > Do you workout or do yoga? What about meditation?(i know its hard to get into, especially if your high strung to begin with)
> >
> > I would consider just going to the school clinic and tell them what's been going on. They may be able to refer you to someone.
> >
> > If your just popping xanax without any other med to stabilize you, you find yourself needing more xanax and popping it more and more. This can turn into an addiction. Anything that is powerful enough to get addicted to will contribute more to your problems.
> >
> > Whatever you do try to release some of that stress instead of popping a xany. Workout, run, swim, do yoga, bikram yoga, there's got to be something you can do. It's just building and the xanax is only covering it up temporarily.
>
>

 

Two more things garnet71

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 0:01:29

In reply to med to prevent instability?, posted by garnet71 on June 26, 2009, at 2:18:31

Sorry to be posting so much, but if there is one thing I know, it is OCD, and it is OCD centered around fears of becoming psychotic.

Two more things:

1. At your age, and I'll just say this once (b/c of the reassurance thing I talked about, above) you are probably less than 1% likely to get a psychotic disorder like schizophrenia.

2. To back up what I was saying about OCD NOT being about internal conflicts or denial, and about what DOES cause it:

Dr. Claiborn, an expert in OCD, on psychodynamic theories of OCD:

"The assumption behind psychodynamic approaches is that the problems we see such
as obsessions are the result of some underlying conflict or other problem. This
leads to the idea that it is necessary to get at these underlying reasons to
properly treat the problem.

There are several problems with this model. One is that no one has ever
demonstrated that such hidden conflicts exist in the first place much less are
the cause or otherwise related to the symptoms we observe. Second there is no
evidence that therapy designed to uncover the supposed causes works to reduce
symptoms. Third there is good reason to believe that the material "discovered"
in psychodynamic therapy is not an accurate representation of things that
actually happened and the supposed conflicts that are uncovered may have been
fabricated to satisfy the therapist. The psychodynamic model would predict that
if the underlying conflict is not dealt with that symptoms should reappear
albeit perhaps in a different form. This problem of symptom substitution is
predicted but not found suggesting the theory is wrong. People are very capable
of making connections in their head and to some extent this is what makes
intrusive thoughts a problem. People make connections and assume meaning. The
more effort we spend trying to identify this meaning the more we believe it
exists and is important.

I have repeatedly written here about the fact that the content of intrusive
thoughts observed in the general population is indistinguishable from the
content of obsessions. This supports the idea that obsessions are actually
normal intrusive thoughts that people react to in a dysfunctional way. As a
result it doesn't make sense to try to figure out the underlying meaning of the
thoughts as there is none. In fact trying to figure it out is likely to
reinforce the idea that they are meaningful. Since believing they are meaningful
is part of the problem in OCD this type of therapy would seem to risk worsening
OCD.
--
Contrary to popular opinion, meaning is not discovered. It is not something
lying around on life's road waiting to be tripped over. One makes meaning.
E Davies & J Burdett

J. Claiborn Ph.D. ABPP"

About causes of OCD, from another expert, Dr. Grayson:

"In worldwide epidemiological studies, the rates of OCD tends to be roughly
the same. I believe the underlying core of OCD is difficulty coping with
uncertainty. Not uncertainty in every part of life, but in the focus of the
symptoms. Generally, sufferers are seeking absolute certainty in their
problem area, e.g., there is no chance my hands are dirty; how can I be sure
I won't kill my wife tonight; are these thoughts evil and am I evil; is the
door locked? Underlying the attempt to be absolutely certain are the feared
consequences of what failing to ritualize might mean or lead to. These
aren't obvious from the symptoms. For example, with contamination, the
issue may be that I don't want to be dirty, I'm afraid of getting others
sick, a thought that I don't like will stay with me if I don't wash and then
there are different reasons I don't want that thought. The consequence can
simply be that I don't want the thought in my head, because I hate it.

In looking at the parts of the brain that seem to play a role in OCD, it
does seem to be an area that for all people responds to uncertainty.
Presumably, the threshold for feeling discomfort in response to uncertainty
is lower for sufferers. However, learning is involved, since sufferers have
no difficulty with uncertainties that are not part of their symptoms. It is
for this reason that medication alone doesn't work. Medication may work on
the underlying biology, but it is not touching learning.

As to why OCD would survive in the gene pool - it does seem that most
sufferers have 3 traits that we can't change. Most sufferers are above
average intelligence. This is one of the reasons they can't be 100%
certain. Most sufferers are creative, since the core of creativity is
saying what if. In normal what iffing, the individual considers all
possibilities without demanding an definite answer. In OCD, the suffer
says, 'what if. no! That isn't acceptable.' What one needs to remember
about creativity is that this trait does not exist to create art, but is for
survival. For primitive man creativity asks: where is the tiger and how can
I make sure it doesn't eat me? In the modern world, survival isn't only
physical, but mental. Some sufferers feel like OCD always attacks what is
important to them. They are right, because they are exploring what is
important to them, considering how to lose it and then rather than trying to
cope with that possibility try to do the impossible of attaining absolute
certainty. The third trait is imaginative, which means being able to think
about something so vividly that it feels real. Sufferers scare the hell out
of themselves. These three traits are not OCD, but are misused by their
OCD.

Take care,

Jonathan Grayson, Ph.D"

 

Re: I mean, if you have any of the positive symptoms

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 0:20:56

In reply to I mean, if you have any of the positive symptoms, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 26, 2009, at 23:37:34

Hey Amelia,

I hear what you are saying. Though you have to consider that these experts believe in it so much of course they will do whatever they can to document evidence to back up what they believe. Besides, they are making money off of this.

How can you deny psychology but not challenge OCD as a diagnosis that stands alone in it's root causes. It's just OCD!! that's all, we were born with it!!! It just sounds very simplistic to me. Life, our psyche, our emotions, and human existence is hardly ever that simple.

Sorry if I'm coming on a bit strong. I don't know why you would have a problem with someone sharing their opinion/theories. BTW, I have worked with a very well respected clinical psychologist for years. She has a phd and does forensic work for Fairfax, Co. Police, just outside of Washington, D.C.. This is not just MY theory. I also have had conversations with my psychology professors about this and other things like ADHD. They all agree that these diagnosis are not that simple. The consensus is that OCD, Anxiety, Depression, all go hand in hand. They also agree that most disorders develop form the bio-psycho-social dynamic. You are not simply born with OCD. It just is not that simple and it never will be. Yes some people are more prone to develop symptoms of OCD as a result of other issues. Did it not make any sense to you that OCD is a manifestation of other underlying problems and is a way of distracting from those problems. God I just don't understand why people don't want to face the truth. I take that back, I do understand. No one wants to deal with anything that may be complicated and painful. So, the nice experts out there simplify things for us so we won't lose our minds any more than we already have. It's kinda nice, but it won't allow us to make true progress in the long run.

Sorry Amelia, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I could get just as irritated with you for having the reaction you had to what I said. Actually, I did get a bit irritated. You took my two cents way too personally. JMO.

I actually agree with you as far as garnet doing what he can to educate himself and protect himself. If he has schizophrenia in his family, maybe he should be concerned. He should do what he can to make sure what he is experiencing is not the beginning of psychosis and figure out what he can do to possible prevent psychosis from developing.

Garnet you are a he are you not? Sorry if you are a she...

 

Re: Two more things

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 0:26:16

In reply to Two more things garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 0:01:29

Amelia...this doctor has no more proof than the psychodynamic group does. Please realize that this is just another opinion that is NOT based on hard core evidence. Show me that they found the OCD gene and maybe I will start to go to the other side.

 

Re: Two more things

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 0:28:40

In reply to Re: Two more things, posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 0:26:16

Fabricated to satisfy the therapis??!!! Who is this GURU? I have never ever ever heard of anyone I know experiencing this. I'm not saying this has never happened. Seriously this sounds like an episode of Law and Order SVU. Come on

 

Re: Two more things

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 0:43:49

In reply to Two more things garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 0:01:29

Look, I believe in OCD. Really, I do. I also believe there are many of us that are more predisposed to develop it or to struggle with it. I am one of those. Believe me, I AM OCD. I actually think Dr. Grayson makes some good points(except for the making up of conflicts that are not there, completely absurd, I wish he hadn't said that because it makes it hard for me and probably others to take him seriously..sounds more like DENIAL, not imaginary conflicts). I still have to say, that the internal conflicts causing some anxiety, are most likely to be fuel adding to the fire or igniting the simmering coals that are OCD. Basically, you have the traits and if you don't get what you need, those traits will develop into something that is severe enough to cause problems.

With me, when I feel good and life is good, my ocd is hardly noticeable. I bet if anyone OCD found themselves feeling loved and well nurtured(by themselves and others), good and healthy, doing what they are passionate about and enjoying it, any struggles with OCD would diminish considerably; maybe to the point of not even noticing they had OCD to begin with.

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 1:42:41

In reply to med to prevent instability?, posted by garnet71 on June 26, 2009, at 2:18:31

Garnet..I apologize if I started to turn this thread into an argument over OCD.

Also, someone brought it to my attention that I did not have garnet71's best interest in mind. That my ego was driving me to satisfy my own needs rather than the needs of garnet71. If I came off that way, I apologize.

My theory/opinion/belief I shared on OCD IS also held by many well educated people in the field of psychology. This website is called psychobabble isn't it? And we are here to share different viewpoints that may or may not help someone understand what may or may not be going on with them. I should not have gotten into a discussion on OCD on this thread. Anything I said before that was totally justifiable.

So garnet 71, I hope you did not feel like I said anything that could be damaging to you. Or that my purpose for saying what I said about OCD was merely to feed my own ego. Yes I have an ego like everyone else. And yes sometimes it can get in the way. Maybe my rambling right now is a result of my out of control ego. Sorry now I'm being obnoxious.

Hoe you get better soon garnet 71

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 6:41:09

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 1:42:41

No, I like hearing the different views. I don't have OCD. I have some OCD symptoms, but not full blown OCD. I have symptoms of other disorders too, but I don't see any one thing that characterizes my beahvioral pattern except the anxiety-which often causes the symptoms you both mentioned. BTW-I'm a she.

Well the reasons I was fearing psychosis was 1) build up from tremendous pressure yet I had been stable for so long and mood has been good; suddenly, that changed as a reaction to feeling buried childhood emotions that were so intense my potential to deal with such emotions was uncertain and 2) My grandmother and sister had psychotic breaks, from schitzophrenia and bipolar respectively and later 3) I read you can get a temporary psychosis from transference reactions in psychodynamic therapy (if it only emerges out of transference it is -according to the few papers I read-considered a transference psychosis and not a true psychosis.) When i talked to my doctor on the phone and felt strong transference, w/in an hour visuals that appeared to derive from my unconscious popped in my head, and I had never noticed this before; since this was new, I had to understand it and my thoughts were diverging in an attempt to make sense of it all. And others here said that happens from psychodynamics, so I have less fears about a true psychosis but still some fears of a transference psychosis. I don't know a lot about this stuff at all, but I do realize the analytic theories are sooo different than other psychology. Anxiety is not anxiety but explained in many other ways==something i don't know enough about to quite understand, yet.

I fully appreciate how opinions come from personal experience, education, and knowledge obtained and experienced by others; we all do that-that helps build our beliefs and how we come to understand such things shapes our identity to a certain extent.

I"m interested in both the DSM view and the analytic view. For example, what the DSM attributes to PTSD, the analytic view (and again just from a few things I've read so I"m not certain) seems to think PTSD is a manifestation or change caused by trauma that represents an underlying or post-trauma developed borderline behavioral pattern (as opposed to a neurotic behavioral pattern though many have elements of both underlying patterns). I've also started to wonder about disassociation, which also goes w/borderline and PTSD especially with people with traumatic childhoods and of course other trauma.

There are also the theories I read about how childhood abuse permanently changes the brain, nothing new of course, that leads to having anxiety the rest of one's life so wondering how that factors in.

So in reassessing my past, I realize that I became a completely different person after a bad relationship with a narcissist. That's when I got PTSD symptoms. Despite years of childhood problems, I felt fully intact, stable, confident, pretty secure, independent, good reasoning and judgment w/o manifestations of anxiety or depression. I didn't have 'bad' relationships, dated/casual and some semi long-term that just dissolved slowly with no uncomfortable emotions; focused most on career and raising my child, along with self improvement. I had some dysnfunction, like drinking too much, but dysnfunctional behavior was few and far between. I really didn't know any different from growing up that way; yet, when I was a teen and started working and was allowed out of the house/free to interact with other people for the first time, I came to realize my family was so dysnfunctional and how 'normal' people lived, thus gradually moved away from dysnfunctional behaviors. This all changed when I was about 30 after entering a relationship with N. With N, childhood trauma came out. I felt soul raped, like most of us who had experienced this type of relationship, and changed into a different person. My past Ts attributed this to PTSD, yet the psychodynamic view seems to be, in my opinion, an emergence of a borderline behavioral pattern. It felt like N was envious of my spirit and strength and confidence; that he wanted from me what he didn't have and somehow sucked my spirit out of me and attributed it to himself. It's actually not uncomomon for those in such relationships to feel this way, so I've learned from talking to many others. There are plenty of women who've experiernced these feelings who did not have bad childhoods, mental illness; many who are educated professional, etc.--they are from all walks of life. Almost everyone's 'story' I've read about their dynamics with a N sounds the same as mine, feeling soul raped, feeling like a completely different person, regardless of their prior emotional health or underlying patterns. Sometimes those predisopositiioned to a healthy emotional make up are the one's that leave the relations;hip sooner, but not always.

So I've felt permanently altered and damaged, and wonder if I'll ever get my 'self' back. I am not the same person I was before I was 30, and am unsure if I'll ever get back to who I was before. I think therapy will be the only thing that helps, it doesn't seem like I have the ability to do it on my own at this point. I'm just confused as to whether I had some kind of dissassociation that lasted till I was 30 and this is the 'real' me that came back as a result of experiencing emotional trauma, or if the real me was the person before I was 30 and I permanently changed.

Either I've permanently changed at 30 from relationship with N, or I was always like this and came out of some sort of dissassociation at the age of 30.

I don't know if I am the old me or the new me. That's really the difficult part--yearning for my old self, the person who I thought i was. It's really intense I've come to all these realizations, insights from just a couple days of therapy. It's just difficult to understand or make a judgement as to what's going on, so I really appreciate the input from both of you.

As for stability, maybe I shouldn't pursue therapy until I finish school. However, I don't see there ever being a 'good' time to deal with all this; either way, it will be difficult. SSRIs, although they work for anxiety for sure, have an adverse effect on my dopamine, but that's something I'll have to talk to this doctor about. I definitely don't want to take this xanax like this, it seems like it's causing a bit of depression and making me tired.

 

psychosis vs. visuals and OCD brain scans garnet71

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 12:12:24

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 6:41:09

Just so you know, visuals "popping in your head" are not hallucinations. They just aren't. So that's not psychosis and is not "sort of" psychosis. And if you don't have a first-degree relative with schizophrenia or a psychotic disorder, you really don't need to worry about it.

However, dissociation is something that can come up with people with traumatic pasts, and that can feel like psychosis. But it's not.

It is possible to have GAD with OCD features rather than full-blown OCD. I was diagnosed as that at first, until the OCD became out of control.

As for causes, there are many, many studies that show problems with the prefrontal cortex in persons with OCD. Overactivation of it is one thing that has been found. Also, a recent report from the BBC:

Brain scans may be able to reveal which people are at genetic risk of developing obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), researchers say.

Individuals with OCD and their close relatives have distinctive patterns in their brain structure, a team at Cambridge University found.

The genes responsible remain unknown, but it appears they change the brain's anatomy, which may aid diagnosis.

The study is published in the latest edition of the journal Brain.

OCD is an anxiety disorder in which the person is compelled by irrational fears and thoughts to repeat seemingly needless actions over and over again.

It can manifest itself in repetitive behaviours, such as excessive hand washing, cleaning or repeated checking, affects 2%-3% of the population and is known to run in families.

Computerised test

Using magnetic resonance imaging, the Cambridge researchers scanned the brains of nearly 100 people, including some with OCD and some who were close relatives of individuals with OCD.

Participants also completed a computerised test that involved pressing a left or right button as quickly as possible when arrows appeared.

When a beep noise sounded, volunteers had to attempt to stop their responses. The aim was to objectively measure ability to stop repetitive behaviours.

Both OCD patients and their close relatives fared worse on the computer task than the control group.


These brain changes appear to run in families and may represent a genetic risk factor
Researcher Lara Menzies

This was associated with decreases of grey matter in brain regions important in suppressing responses and habits - the orbitofrontal and right inferior frontal regions.

Researcher Lara Menzies said: "Impaired brain function in the areas of the brain associated with stopping motor responses may contribute to the compulsive and repetitive behaviours that are characteristic of OCD.

"These brain changes appear to run in families and may represent a genetic risk factor for developing the condition.

"The current diagnosis of OCD available to psychiatrists is subjective and therefore knowledge of the underlying causes may lead to better diagnosis and ultimately improved clinical treatments."

Exciting results

But she said there was a long way to go to identify the genes contributing to the distinctive brain structure found in OCD patients and their relatives.

"We also need to identify other contributing factors for OCD, to understand why close relatives that share similar brain structures don't always develop the disorder."

Ashley Fulwood, of the charity OCD-UK, said although it was a relatively small study, the results were potentially very exciting.

"We hope this new evidence may lead to a larger study which helps conclusively pinpoint a contributory factor into the exact cause of OCD which is so widely debated at the moment."

 

As requested, OCD gene

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 12:43:47

In reply to Re: Two more things, posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 0:26:16

Its a false dichotomy say that either a gene must be found for disorders or all disorders arise from conflicts. CBT frameworks don't rely on a genetic cause, neither do humanist and existentialist, neither do gestalt, neither do DBT. So it's a false dichotomy. But I was challenged to come up with an "OCD gene"--and since I always believe in backing up what one says with research, here you go...

But nonetheless, interesting work is being done on an "OCD gene." From http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20070822/scientists-spot-possible-ocd-gene:

Scientists Spot Possible OCD Gene
In Lab Tests, Mice Lacking the SAPAP3 Gene Groom Themselves Compulsively
By Miranda Hitti
WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

Aug. 22, 2007 -- Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) may be affected by a gene called SAPAP3, new research shows.

OCD is an anxiety disorder marked by recurrent, unwanted thoughts (obsessions) and/or repetitive behaviors (compulsions) such as washing hands, counting, checking, or cleaning, which are often performed with the hope of preventing or getting rid of obsessive thoughts, according to background information from the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).

The new OCD study, published in tomorrow's edition of the journal Nature, is based on mice bred without the SAPAP3 gene and other mice with a normal SAPAP3 gene.

When the mice were pups, they all behaved normally. But by the time the mice were four to six months old, those lacking the SAPAP3 gene compulsively groomed themselves to the point of self-injury and acted more anxious than normal mice.

"We obviously cannot talk to mice to find out what they are thinking, but these mutant mice clearly did things that looked like OCD," Feng says in a Duke University Medical Center news release.

The scientists tried two strategies to relieve the OCD-like behavior and anxiety in the mice lacking the SAPAP3 gene.

First, they gave some of those mice a daily injection of fluoxetine (the active ingredient in the antidepressant Prozac) for six days. That eased the mice's excessive grooming and anxiety.

The researchers' second strategy involved injecting a bit of DNA, including the SAPAP3 gene, directly into the brains of other mice lacking the SAPAP3 gene. That reduced the mice's anxious and OCD-like symptoms.

The researchers conclude that the SAPAP3 gene may be involved in obsessive-compulsive behavior. But that doesn't rule out other genetic or environmental influences.

The findings "sharpen our focus" on certain brain chemistry circuits involved in OCD, writes Harvard Medical School neurobiology professor Steven Hyman, MD, in a Nature editorial.

But Hyman cautions that studies in mice can't fully mimic OCD.

"In OCD patients, the main cause of anxiety is the unwanted intrusive thoughts. The sufferers are anxious because they cannot be certain that the door is locked, the gas has been turned off, or that they are free of dread microbes. The anxiety-like behaviors observed in these mice may also resemble OCD, but this requires a stretch of the imagination," writes Hyman.

Garnet, I know how it feels to be resistant to SSRIs, but it's not true that they are only for depression....so I hope you are reading and thinking about your options.

 

Re: As requested, OCD gene Amelia_in_StPaul

Posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 13:52:24

In reply to As requested, OCD gene, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 12:43:47

"Garnet, I know how it feels to be resistant to SSRIs, but it's not true that they are only for depression....so I hope you are reading and thinking about your options."

Hi again,

I'm not treatment resistant to SSRIs--they work for anxiety which is my main symptom, but take away my motivation. Effexor caused swollen joints and depression, more like an allergic reaction. They all take away my anxiety; prozac w/in a few days. I can't tolerate the side effects and they do make me depressed.

I don't have OCD. The visuals popping up were not repetitive; they were childhood pictures - ie: a 4th of July sparkler, a mannequin with a wig on that used to be at my Mom's work, wetc. They were very vivid, but nothing repetitive. Just part of my repressed memories emerging, I'm guessing. I do have some OCD symptoms once in a while though.

 

Re: psychosis vs. visuals and OCD brain scans

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 18:52:30

In reply to psychosis vs. visuals and OCD brain scans garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 27, 2009, at 12:12:24

>"We also need to identify other contributing factors for OCD, to understand why close relatives that share similar brain structures don't always develop the disorder."

Yes I agree 1000 percent!

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 18:56:57

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 6:41:09

Garnet71, sounds like you are more self aware than most. I'm sure if you take your time and find the people to help you, you will do the hard work necessary to get better.

I can totally relate to feeling like you lost yourself. This has happened to me in a very short period of time. It really sucks. I hope you get back to feeling more like yourself but an even better version than before. It just is not worth going through life not being able to truly enjoy it.

 

Re: med to prevent instability?

Posted by Phillipa on June 27, 2009, at 21:20:39

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 18:56:57

Garnet why not try luvox even though it's an SSRI it did get rid of most of my rituals along with the benzos for anxiety. Phillipa ps I didn't ride my bike tonight and that is a ritual that makes me feel guilty if I don't but couldn't. Home too late am I anxious cause I didn't at first not anymore. Also years ago stopped adding license plate numbers together. Did you know ultimately three numbers all equal 9?

 

Re: med to prevent instability? Phillipa

Posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 23:44:12

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by Phillipa on June 27, 2009, at 21:20:39

Did you see the movie '23' with Jim Carey? lol you have to watch it!! I have a friend who is always looking at license plates too.

I don't know what to try-i shouldn't have canceled other PDoc appt. I didn't know this psychiatrist was an analyst when I booked the appt. I think I just need a regular pdoc again.

 

Re: med to prevent instability? morganpmiller

Posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 23:51:08

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 18:56:57

That was a very nice note Morgan-wish you the best too. Maybe there is a therapist out there for everyone, you know, like that other saying.. lol

 

Re: med to prevent instability? morganpmiller

Posted by garnet71 on June 28, 2009, at 0:03:22

In reply to Re: med to prevent instability?, posted by morganpmiller on June 27, 2009, at 18:56:57

Oh-it's probably not more self awareness, but more from suddenly feeling the repressed, intense emotions from that strange transference event. I never processed those emotions from childhood trauma, don't even remember feeling them, so a lot is coming to light as a result of my brief experience w/ psychotherapy.

I just read a psychoanalytic journal article that indicated some people that had strong reactions such as the one I experienced fully recovered from neurosis w/in a few weeks or months, some having had major life changing insights in just the first couple days-maybe like my experience could be...or at least I wish it would turn out like that..you never know....maybe you should try it too?

 

Re: As requested, OCD gene garnet71

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 28, 2009, at 12:30:12

In reply to Re: As requested, OCD gene Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by garnet71 on June 27, 2009, at 13:52:24

Oh that's right. You've had some of the same problems I've had with SSRIs.

Yes, visuals aren't a part of OCD, at all. I was trying to address your concern about hallucinations.

Repetitive thoughts are part of OCD. But of course, I only know what you tell me and try to help you based on that.

You know that I am *always* only trying to help you. Take what fits, throw out the rest.

Take care, Amelia

> "Garnet, I know how it feels to be resistant to SSRIs, but it's not true that they are only for depression....so I hope you are reading and thinking about your options."
>
> Hi again,
>
> I'm not treatment resistant to SSRIs--they work for anxiety which is my main symptom, but take away my motivation. Effexor caused swollen joints and depression, more like an allergic reaction. They all take away my anxiety; prozac w/in a few days. I can't tolerate the side effects and they do make me depressed.
>
> I don't have OCD. The visuals popping up were not repetitive; they were childhood pictures - ie: a 4th of July sparkler, a mannequin with a wig on that used to be at my Mom's work, wetc. They were very vivid, but nothing repetitive. Just part of my repressed memories emerging, I'm guessing. I do have some OCD symptoms once in a while though.
>
>


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