Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 891025

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Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... sowhysosad

Posted by Sigismund on April 17, 2009, at 4:12:57

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 16, 2009, at 21:32:43

>And the tiny minority who have had negative experiences seemingly caused by SSRI's have far louder voices than the millions who have found them helpful.

How do you know?

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... NewQuestions

Posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 5:40:19

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by NewQuestions on April 16, 2009, at 15:53:28

It is hard to figure out, but even harder with mainstream common testing. Quite honestly, they use meaningless tests.

For example, thyroid. You say the tests were normal. Well, how normal? The so-called normal range is extremely broad and only fits healthy people as an average, not inclusive of every person on the planet. FreeT3, freeT4, and TSH all need to be at the far end of the broad range, the good side of that range. Not in the middle. Not slightly toward the bad side. Normal is not good enough, especially when you have symptoms. What we need is optimal. That said, I don't think thyroid explains your problems, though you probably are on the hypothyroid side of things despite being in a normal range. Keep in mind too, there is a thing called receptor resistance. We can only measure thyroid in the blood. What we cannot measure is whether the receiving receptors are recognizing it or taking it. Sometimes patients need extra thyroid hormone to break through the roadblock. Really good thyroid doctors do not rely on lab numbers. They go by symptoms, trial and error with various doses. The lab tests are only good as a baseline reading to know where you started. A reference point. Nothing more.

So, you can see, just getting a test has to be very specific.

The adrenal test you are about to get is also completely worthless. It is going to challenge your adrenal glands to see if they put out cortisol. That tells you absolutely nothing. If the adrenals are 80% bad, you'll be treated. If they are 70% bad, they'll tell you that you are in the normal range and everything is fine. Think about it, is it ok to have a heart that is 70% bad. Do you wait for a heart attack for someone to diagnose heart disease? It's the same with adrenals. Bad is bad, no matter what degree.

The proper cortisol test is called the Adrenal STress Index. It measures your cortisol in saliva, 4 times during a 24 hour period, unprovoked, so that you can see how your cortisol is behaving throughout an entire day. I would place money that yours is well below the normal curve. But alas, you have cortisol, and with the challenge test you are going to take, it will appear perfectly fine, when in fact it is in the dumps. Basically, you don't want to know what your adrenals will do following a challenge test of another drug. What you want to know is what are your cortisol levels during a typical average day at waking time, noon, late afternoon, and late evening. Is it low all of that time? Is it low some of that time? Is it normal the whole time? There is no way you are going to get any useful information from the test they are going to give you, other than whether your adrenals are dead or alive. Nothing inbetween.

Heavy metals. They aren't floating around in your blood or urine unless you have current or recent exposure. These metals settle into tissues and cells. So a blood test or a urine test is not going to show any metals. They are in the tissues, not the blood or urine. DMSA is a drug that chelates lead and mercury from tissue storage. And then it goes to the urine in high concentrations, if it was in the tissues. A DMSA challenge test will show how much mercury or lead is hiding in your tissues. I do not suspect this condition is your primary illness, though it could be, but I would put it high on the red flag list if you have or ever had amalgam fillings in your teeth.

You really fit the description of hypoadrenalism perfectly, which will not show in the test you are about to take. You gotta get that saliva test 4 times a day to see what is really going on.

I do believe serotonin is a player. All those years we were on ssris, our serotonin was bound up at the synapse sites. In studies it is shown that metabolites of serotonin decrease considerably while on SSRI. Total theory on my part, but maybe serotonin is not available to the rest of the body in amounts that it should be? In other words, it is all concentrated at the synapse, but stolen from everywhere else? And over longterm, that lack of bodily peripheral serotonin causes some longlasting adaptations that affect immune system (sensitivities), hormones, and stuff?

Maybe somewhere along the line our genes say, "Hey, there is way too much serotonin at these synapses. We weren't programmed for that. We need to tell all our neighbor genes to slow down or stop production of serotonin from protein tryptophan." Maybe we lose the ability to make serotonin, as the body's natural response to have artificially high serotonin from meds? And then maybe, just maybe, those genes that got turned off never get turned on again? Or maybe, if for example there a million serotonin receptors to begin with, when serotonin concentrations increase from the drug, the body tries to compensate by eliminating some of those receptors? So now maybe we have only half a million? Quarter million? A few thousand? And when the drug is stopped, they don't grow back again?

All kinds of weird stuff could be happening. I agree with Linkadge, that this topic should become very public and very huge, as it deserves close scrutiny.

The fact is, no one knows what these drugs really do, and no one knows what their longterm consequences are. I do believe longterm adaptive changes occur that are detrimental to many biochemical systems in our bodies, primarily related to immune function, which sets us up for sensitivities, fatigue, and brain fog.

And the best way I know of to kick start things back into sync is to treat hypoadrenalism. That covers the entire range of symptoms you are experiencing, and restores the lost sensitivities of serotonin and thyroid hormones back to normal.

> Bleuberry, help me figure this out! I have gotten a battery of blood tests. The only abnormalities:
>
> 1. High triglycerides and low HDL
> 2. High AST and ALT liver enzymes
>
> I was tested for metals, testosterone and thyroid and it came back negative. I didn't take DMSA so maybe the metal test wasn't thorough? Once I tested high for folic acid and B12 but it since stablized.
>
> Given the high AST and ALT, my doctor is now checking out:
>
> Hemochromatosis (iron overload)
> Celiac disease
> Muscle related inflammation
> Wilson's Disease (copper overload)
> Alpha-1 anti-trypsin deficiency
> Addison's Disease
>
> For Addison's disease, I will be getting a cortisol test this weekend and taking 1 mg of dexamethasone the night before. (Is that sufficient?)
>
> I have found a bunch of people on paxilprogress.com that took elevated doses of an SSRI for a number of years, went off of it, and experienced a bunch of withdrawal symptoms similar to mine, including hypersensitivities to drugs and vitamins, and at least some cognitive problems. Given that, and the fact that I live in NYC, I don't think Lyme disease is a likely candidate. However, some type of cortisol problem is more likely as it interrelates to SSRI's and serotonin.
>
> Does that sound right?
>

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by 4ed on April 17, 2009, at 7:40:29

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... NewQuestions, posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 5:40:19

I will agree from my own experience that meds, in the right cocktail will work... the issue is how long? then what, after they don't work. It becomes pharmaceutical roulette, I tried this and that for several months before I decided, "this is good enough to remain stable". Stable doesn't help me in job interviews, or life in general, barely able to crack a smile and stuttering to top it off. If I could pop a dexedrine and a xanax before a normally awkward situation then its money baby, but sh*t I can't take these drugs because I've already proven to my pdoc that with these powerful substances I end up psychotic and/or agoraphobic. So then it becomes management using Antipsychotics, total zombification... get out your giant roll of ace bandages, wrap me up, and bury me in egypt. I'm sorry to play devil's avodocate, or simply the devil ;-) There is alot of misinformation out there, from both sides, and relapse to original, or worse, condition seems plausible. there is just so many unknown variables, that its hard to tell someone it is or isn't the meds that f##ked you up. give this guy a break!

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by NewQuestions on April 17, 2009, at 8:12:19

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by 4ed on April 17, 2009, at 7:40:29

Read these stories. People need full information before making a decision as to whether to go on an SSRI. The drug companies surely won't tell you about this!

http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20079

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on April 17, 2009, at 11:05:29

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 16, 2009, at 17:43:44

> > I do believe ssris played into [this]. Partially by hiding a disease that was already in progress, until the disease got strong enough that the meds didn't stand a chance, and it looked like med poopout, but wasn't. The sensitivity to supplements and meds is because...something else is going on.
>
> What are the odds that most of the SSRI horror stories we hear are due to something like this?
>
> Whilst not wishing to belittle anyone's seemingly SSRI-related suffering (I suffered the worst SSRI-induced akathisia last year myself), it does worry me that the horror stories are putting a lot of people off meds who could be significantly helped.

I don't think these drugs should be demonized, but I'll say that since the phenomenal sales of these drugs, and many ordinary doctors faith in them, the other side of the coin deserves to be fully explored, the few websites dedicated to negative propaganda on these drugs can never outweight the positive propaganda put forth by the pharma companies.

 

Good advice Jay_Bravest_face :) (nm)

Posted by polarbear206 on April 17, 2009, at 13:06:34

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 14:58:36

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by NewQuestions on April 17, 2009, at 8:12:19

The problem with all of these stories, including our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would say that these symptoms are manifestations of the underlying disease, not the meds, and that the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault for not seeking medical care to treat the symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out of it.

> Read these stories. People need full information before making a decision as to whether to go on an SSRI. The drug companies surely won't tell you about this!
>
> http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20079

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 16:56:54

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 14:58:36

I'm sure they would use that defence, but it's possible that in some cases the symptoms aren't med-related and were being masked by meds, which is why we need to be cautious when reading these horror stories.

Is there even a scrap of rational scientific evidence that proves SSRI's caused these long-term effects?

> The problem with all of these stories, including our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would say that these symptoms are manifestations of the underlying disease, not the meds, and that the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault for not seeking medical care to treat the symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out of it.

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by Sigismund on April 17, 2009, at 19:40:34

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 16:56:54

>Is there even a scrap of rational scientific evidence that proves SSRI's caused these long-term effects?

Who would pay for it?

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by connor on April 18, 2009, at 0:02:31

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 16:56:54

I'm tired of doctors blaming everything on the condition itself. Sure it's possible, but, like me when you go on meds for one problem then suddenly a million others pop up that weren't there before you start to become suspicious. The doctors admit that they don't know exactly how these meds work yet they will never admit that these drugs can cause long term effects,

Anecdotal reports, are just that, anecdotal. But when every long term side effect is AUTOMATICALLY just passed off as the condition worsening, how on earth are these effects suppose to be documented. The side effects of these medications cause the exact same effects that depression causes. And because of that it's nearly impossible to prove any of this.
> I'm sure they would use that defence, but it's possible that in some cases the symptoms aren't med-related and were being masked by meds, which is why we need to be cautious when reading these horror stories.
>
> Is there even a scrap of rational scientific evidence that proves SSRI's caused these long-term effects?
>
> > The problem with all of these stories, including our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would say that these symptoms are manifestations of the underlying disease, not the meds, and that the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault for not seeking medical care to treat the symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out of it.

I know based on my experience and reading many others to corroborate it that ssri's did cause long term damage

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 1:24:44

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by connor on April 18, 2009, at 0:02:31

Mental illness seems to be progressive; that's the underlying truth that makes me skeptical of such claims. Yeah, sometimes i think my recent GAD symptoms are the result of protracted use of xxRIs-I still think about that. I'll never know. What I think mostly about now, however, is moving forward.

But think about the onset of mental illness. Ok, I realize coming from non-scientific Garnet isn't what anyone would necessarily believe, but isn't the average age of onset of schitzophrenia something like 28 years old? And what are "mental breakdowns" - now believed to be mental "breakthroughs"? Underlying predispositions?

If enviornment is 50% and genetics is 50% (in regard to mental illness), then wouldn't the brain have evolved, in whatever way it changed, partly from its life before psychiatric drugs were introduced?

Still, I like to hear all the anti-psych stuff. I think its important to evaluate things from all angles. Influence is just that. Influence from those groups or individuals that have the most money. Everything is a result of monetary dynamics, no matter how you look at it. So keep talking. That's what dialogue is for. Please stay open minded.

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... Jay_Bravest_Face

Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:54:08

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... linkadge, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on April 17, 2009, at 1:34:35

>I think you would consider my story 'rosey' >then, as many of those so-called *evil* drugs >have helped me,

I'm not going to get into this whole debate again and I really don't have time to read your book of a post. I didn't use the word 'evil' and I think it would be helpful if people didn't jump to conclusions about my posts. All I said, is that "people have a right to hear about any and all experiences with these medications". As much as people like you want to tell people like us to just shut up and stop telling out stories, it ain't going to happen.

Linkadge

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... sowhysosad

Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:55:44

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 1:43:18

I don't think we are trying to 'demonize' these medications, I think we are just trying to share our experiences.

Somehow you can't (or simply don't want to) believe that people could react adversly to these drugs.

Linakdge

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:59:26

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 14:58:36

>The problem with all of these stories, including >our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm >expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would >say that these symptoms are manifestations of >the underlying disease, not the meds, and that >the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault >for not seeking medical care to treat the >symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out >of it.

And that has been the inaccurate but highly effective excuse for much psychiatric malpractice. Many psyhchiatrists know too well they easily can blame the patient and get away with it.

Linkadge

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 20:03:06

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:54:08

Yes, there is plenty of evidence that these medicatiosn are less than perfect. But, unfortunately when the issue is brought up some people just happen to lose their jobs (eg. David Healey).


Linkadge

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 20:13:44

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 1:24:44

Mental illness *can* be progressive, but there is certainly no proof that this is the case with all patients.

Some people who have reacted adversley to long term SSRI use complain of symptoms that:

a) they never had before taking the medication
b) are not symptoms typically associated with
depression
c) Resolve upon reinsitution of the drug

Another thing that bothers me is that in most other areas of medicine, the patient's experience is generally respected.

I honestly believe however, that the advacement of psychiatry is significantly hindered by the fact that the patient's experiences are often shrugged off as "the underlying disorder".

It only took us like 20 years after SSRI's were introduced for there to be a medical agreement that the drugs can produce *withdrawl symptoms* (and they're still not called withdrawl symptoms for some strange reason)

That being said, I'm sure there are tons of other less common adverse reactions that will never see the light of day for the same reasons.

Linkadge

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... linkadge

Posted by Garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 20:32:01

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 20:13:44

Oh sorry Linkadge, I meant late onset (as opposed to progressive). not that it makes much of an argument, just thinking out loud. I mean most anyone I knew with mental health issues, such as family members who got phobias, anxieties, schitozphrenia, etc, developed these things later in life, late 20s and early 30s.

Anway I tend to agree that new symptoms would just be attributed to the underlying disorder. But how could you prove what causes the symptoms? You said an AD will cease symptoms--so anyone could argue that is because the AD is working. Now i'm confused. what am I saying. Never mind!

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by 4ed on April 18, 2009, at 23:42:02

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 20:32:01

Let me go out on a limb and tell you all... I was better off taking some MDMA, Ketamine, or Psiylocybin, on occasion. a single dose comibined with accompanying positive set and setting, fixed me for a good while off a single dose. maybe this knowledge makes me look at prescribed med treatment as a long term 50% effective treatment compared to these magical experiences that left me with a lust for life for many months after a single dose. maybe thats why they are all class 1 conrolled substances... they are too effective! And one dose your done... you might not even care to do it again and become an "addict"... these are not cocaine or heroin, a good trip last a good while, perhaps a lifetime... only for the headstrong? sorry if my comments are a little left wing. but I've given western pharmaceuticals their fair chance and its just not happening. 'cept for Xanax -- the ultimate bliss pill.

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... newquestions

Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:44:18

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

OldQuestions,

"I stopped listening to music or watching movies because I can't enjoy them or anything else anymore. What really concerns me is the cognitive decline. I just can't think abstractly anymore. I can't learn. My attention to detail sucks."

Although I've had various ADD symptoms to contend with prior to anxiety/depression, I've experienced the same symptoms from SSRIs that you report. Although unlike you, as soon as I quit them, those symptoms greatly improved-but I have yet to get back to 'normal' especially in terms of cognition, motivation. I'm having some enjoyment of life issues, but not too bad since my mood is generally stable (aside from anxiety issues).

You're not going to like this--but I think you should try a new med combo - sans xxRIs. Adderall somehow works on dopamine - I felt so much more normal on that, but couldn't take it for other reasons.

I think you should try Provigil. I mean, look at it this way - what have you got to lose now???????

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... newquestions

Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:45:02

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

....or Segeline

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... newquestions

Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:51:54

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

Are you able to force yourself to exercise?

If not, something like Provigil or Segeline may correct some of your symptoms > which would allow you to regain exercise > which would enhance your body's ability to go back to homeostasis.

Ok-no medical theories here, just intuition. I can imagine being in that state that you are spending a lot of time doing nothing. I understand the misery. While on Zoloft, I spent the whole month of December doing aboslutely nothing but laying in my bed day and night-reading about medical problems on the internet. I had zero motivation. However, going off xxRIs and trying alternate drugs has led me to have the ability to exercise again. Although I still suffer from some issues, having a lapse right now from the inability to tolerate Adderall, I am so much better off, and am looking forward to a bright future. :-)

Like I said, what do you have to lose?

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... 4ed

Posted by Sigismund on April 19, 2009, at 0:12:26

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by 4ed on April 18, 2009, at 23:42:02

Now you're talking.

Thank you.

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story...

Posted by SLS on April 19, 2009, at 7:04:05

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 20:32:01

> I meant late onset (as opposed to progressive)

Unfortunately, Major Depressive Disorder and Bipolar Disorder ARE progressive diseases in that symptoms worsen over time. There are also what seem to be neurodegenerative processes that occur over the course of the illness, especially if left untreated. The brains of people who are affectively ill demonstrate differences in structure and tissue volume when compared to those of healthy people. It is a scary thing to consider, but the good news is that many of these brain areas recover upon effective treatment, and although there are residual cognitive differences that can be detected in psychometric examinations, very often the differences are not noticed by the patient.


- Scott

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... 4ed

Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2009, at 7:28:02

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by 4ed on April 18, 2009, at 23:42:02

> Let me go out on a limb and tell you all... I was better off taking some MDMA, Ketamine, or Psiylocybin, on occasion. a single dose comibined with accompanying positive set and setting, fixed me for a good while off a single dose.

I'm going to have to agree with your thesis, although I employed LSD. I used to think of it as a mental tonic. The effect lasted a good long while.

Before MDMA became popular as a club drug, it was getting a lot of good scientific press for its use in psychotherapy. Then the "war on drugs" mentality took over.

Lar

 

Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... newquestions

Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 14:12:38

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

Oh God, I know what you're talking about. I have said over and over that I wish I never would have been on an SSRI. I recall the 15 minute consultation I received in 1991, after which the doctor whipped out a prescription pad and prescribed Prozac. What a relevation the med was, for about a year. And after, what hell it has been. I too am sensitive to a ton of meds.

I took a break from all meds in April 2007 and ended up in the hospital in March 2008. A year later I am still trying to recover, as, for once in my entire history, the time I was off meds brought on not just a return of major depression, but skyrocketed anxiety and OCD. I cannot describe the hell I was in. It's too painful and it would be too triggering.

I am so sorry. I don't know what else to say to people's stories of hell on meds--I just want you to know that I understand.


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