Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 851924

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 11:14:32

Deplin.

If any of the following have been issues with taking Deplin, your dosage may be too high:

1. Poop-out at any point occurring after a robust response.

2. A worsening of depression after 1-2 weeks.

3. Vivid dreams or nightmares.

4. Mild brain zaps.


I have restarted Deplin at 1/2 a 7.5mg tablet (3.75 mg) after a washout period of 2 weeks. After 2 days, I am starting to feel better. I am reluctant to make any predictions at this point, but the decision to experiment with a lower dosage of Deplin seems logical.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS

Posted by Phillipa on September 14, 2008, at 12:06:02

In reply to Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 11:14:32

Why would something that is supposed to have side effects equal to a sugar pill be creating problems for you as you take a lot of meds. So you're saying it can turn and cause depression at recommended doses? That is very disturbing. Thanks Scott. Love Phillipa

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 12:18:55

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS, posted by Phillipa on September 14, 2008, at 12:06:02

> Why would something that is supposed to have side effects equal to a sugar pill be creating problems for you as you take a lot of meds. So you're saying it can turn and cause depression at recommended doses? That is very disturbing. Thanks Scott. Love Phillipa

As I asserted in my posts when Deplin first came out, this substance should be treated more like a drug than a vitamin supplement. Even hypernutritional amounts of vitamins and minerals can produce clinically important mental and physical changes, including untoward side effects.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 12:20:33

In reply to Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 11:14:32

> Deplin.
>
> If any of the following have been issues with taking Deplin, your dosage may be too high:
>
> 1. Poop-out at any point occurring after a robust response.
>
> 2. A worsening of depression after 1-2 weeks.
>
> 3. Vivid dreams or nightmares.
>
> 4. Mild brain zaps.
>
>
> I have restarted Deplin at 1/2 a 7.5mg tablet (3.75 mg) after a washout period of 2 weeks. After 2 days, I am starting to feel better. I am reluctant to make any predictions at this point, but the decision to experiment with a lower dosage of Deplin seems logical.
>
>
> - Scott
>

I stopped taking deplin because of insomnia. Perhaps I could restart again at a lower dose and see what happens. It did seem to work. It does feel a lot like sam-e which can be very stimulating.

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS

Posted by Phillipa on September 14, 2008, at 12:33:43

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 12:18:55

I guess the same as for example excess doses of A or whatnot. Phillipa

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 12:35:04

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 12:20:33

I hope it works for you. If a lower dosage of Deplin works well for you and does not produce insomnia, I guess we can add insomnia to the dosage-indicator list.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 13:47:07

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 12:35:04

> I hope it works for you. If a lower dosage of Deplin works well for you and does not produce insomnia, I guess we can add insomnia to the dosage-indicator list.
>
>
> - Scott

I believe that deplin works by converting homocysteine to sam-e. Would it not be cheaper to just purchase sam-e and play around with the dosage? I have found a place where sam-e can be purchased quite reasonably.

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 15:19:01

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 13:47:07

> > I hope it works for you. If a lower dosage of Deplin works well for you and does not produce insomnia, I guess we can add insomnia to the dosage-indicator list.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I believe that deplin works by converting homocysteine to sam-e. Would it not be cheaper to just purchase sam-e and play around with the dosage? I have found a place where sam-e can be purchased quite reasonably.

I don't know if one can say that oral L-methylfolate and S-AMe are clinically equivalent. I found S-AMe to make me dysphoric within hours of taking the first dose. You might be right, though. I guess there is only one way to find out. Remember, though, that Deplin can take 1-2 months to produce reliable results. I am not so familiar with the attributes of S-AMe.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 15:40:56

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 15:19:01

> > > I hope it works for you. If a lower dosage of Deplin works well for you and does not produce insomnia, I guess we can add insomnia to the dosage-indicator list.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > I believe that deplin works by converting homocysteine to sam-e. Would it not be cheaper to just purchase sam-e and play around with the dosage? I have found a place where sam-e can be purchased quite reasonably.
>
> I don't know if one can say that oral L-methylfolate and S-AMe are clinically equivalent. I found S-AMe to make me dysphoric within hours of taking the first dose. You might be right, though. I guess there is only one way to find out. Remember, though, that Deplin can take 1-2 months to produce reliable results. I am not so familiar with the attributes of S-AMe.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>

Well the makers of deplin have a chart that shows comversion of homocysteine to methione and than to sam-e. However we don't know if l-methylfolate may do other things in the body other than make sam-e. Also the sam-e that deplin helps the body produce may be superior to the sam-e that is maufactured. So deplin is probably a superior product than sam-e pills. However my pharm charges $50 for a bottle of deplin. I will look for a cheaper souce.

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 15:49:18

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 15:40:56

> > > > I hope it works for you. If a lower dosage of Deplin works well for you and does not produce insomnia, I guess we can add insomnia to the dosage-indicator list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Scott
> > >
> > > I believe that deplin works by converting homocysteine to sam-e. Would it not be cheaper to just purchase sam-e and play around with the dosage? I have found a place where sam-e can be purchased quite reasonably.
> >
> > I don't know if one can say that oral L-methylfolate and S-AMe are clinically equivalent. I found S-AMe to make me dysphoric within hours of taking the first dose. You might be right, though. I guess there is only one way to find out. Remember, though, that Deplin can take 1-2 months to produce reliable results. I am not so familiar with the attributes of S-AMe.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
>
> Well the makers of deplin have a chart that shows comversion of homocysteine to methione and than to sam-e. However we don't know if l-methylfolate may do other things in the body other than make sam-e. Also the sam-e that deplin helps the body produce may be superior to the sam-e that is maufactured. So deplin is probably a superior product than sam-e pills. However my pharm charges $50 for a bottle of deplin. I will look for a cheaper souce.

If it turns out that your ideal dosage of Deplin is 3.75mg, you can justify its use monetarily.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 16:18:41

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 15:49:18

> > > > > I hope it works for you. If a lower dosage of Deplin works well for you and does not produce insomnia, I guess we can add insomnia to the dosage-indicator list.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Scott
> > > >
> > > > I believe that deplin works by converting homocysteine to sam-e. Would it not be cheaper to just purchase sam-e and play around with the dosage? I have found a place where sam-e can be purchased quite reasonably.
> > >
> > > I don't know if one can say that oral L-methylfolate and S-AMe are clinically equivalent. I found S-AMe to make me dysphoric within hours of taking the first dose. You might be right, though. I guess there is only one way to find out. Remember, though, that Deplin can take 1-2 months to produce reliable results. I am not so familiar with the attributes of S-AMe.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Well the makers of deplin have a chart that shows comversion of homocysteine to methione and than to sam-e. However we don't know if l-methylfolate may do other things in the body other than make sam-e. Also the sam-e that deplin helps the body produce may be superior to the sam-e that is maufactured. So deplin is probably a superior product than sam-e pills. However my pharm charges $50 for a bottle of deplin. I will look for a cheaper souce.
>
> If it turns out that your ideal dosage of Deplin is 3.75mg, you can justify its use monetarily.
>
>
> - Scott

Here is a chart from the deplin site that shows
it's mechanism of action.

http://www.deplin.com/HealthcareProfessionals,Action

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 17:18:49

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 16:18:41

> Here is a chart from the deplin site that shows
> it's mechanism of action.
>
> http://www.deplin.com/HealthcareProfessionals,Action

Yes. I have referred to this in the past. I believe the full story is more complicated than this, though. I will try to remember where I saw the metabolic details.

For the time being, I think it makes sense to treat L-methylfolate and S-AMe as being different substances and give each a fair trial. My bias is towards using Deplin, as I have had success with it, yet did not tolerate S-AMe very well.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 17:56:49

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 17:18:49

> > Here is a chart from the deplin site that shows
> > it's mechanism of action.
> >
> > http://www.deplin.com/HealthcareProfessionals,Action
>
> Yes. I have referred to this in the past. I believe the full story is more complicated than this, though. I will try to remember where I saw the metabolic details.
>
> For the time being, I think it makes sense to treat L-methylfolate and S-AMe as being different substances and give each a fair trial. My bias is towards using Deplin, as I have had success with it, yet did not tolerate S-AMe very well.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> ssri's seem to lower production of dopamine over the long haul and lead to a state of flatness in some people. Do you think that deplin may prevent this by creating more neurotransmitters?
>
>
>

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 17:57:42

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 17:18:49

> > Here is a chart from the deplin site that shows
> > it's mechanism of action.
> >
> > http://www.deplin.com/HealthcareProfessionals,Action
>
> Yes. I have referred to this in the past. I believe the full story is more complicated than this, though. I will try to remember where I saw the metabolic details.
>
> For the time being, I think it makes sense to treat L-methylfolate and S-AMe as being different substances and give each a fair trial. My bias is towards using Deplin, as I have had success with it, yet did not tolerate S-AMe very well.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> ssri's seem to lower production of dopamine over the long haul and lead to a state of flatness in some people. Do you think that deplin may prevent this by creating more neurotransmitters?
>
>
>

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS

Posted by theo on September 14, 2008, at 20:38:40

In reply to Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 11:14:32

I hope you have better luck than I did at half a dose. I had mentioned in an earlier post I called Pamlab and they even suggested taking half. When I tried half, I still had the nightmares and violent dreams. Let me know how it goes.

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? theo

Posted by Phillipa on September 14, 2008, at 20:53:56

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS, posted by theo on September 14, 2008, at 20:38:40

Theo wow how can they compare it to a sugarpill? And I almost went back on it didn't. Are you taking the half tab with what other meds? Phillipa

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? theo

Posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 20:58:05

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS, posted by theo on September 14, 2008, at 20:38:40

> I hope you have better luck than I did at half a dose. I had mentioned in an earlier post I called Pamlab and they even suggested taking half. When I tried half, I still had the nightmares and violent dreams. Let me know how it goes.

When I discontinued Deplin a number of weeks ago, it took quite a few nights before my sleep normalized. If you went from 7.50mg to 3.75mg without a washout, you might have not given your system enough time to return to baseline. I'll let you know how I do.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? SLS

Posted by theo on September 14, 2008, at 22:03:40

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? theo, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 20:58:05

Keep me posted, I've got a full bottle!

> When I discontinued Deplin a number of weeks ago, it took quite a few nights before my sleep normalized. If you went from 7.50mg to 3.75mg without a washout, you might have not given your system enough time to return to baseline. I'll let you know how I do.
>
>
> - Scott

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?

Posted by bulldog2 on September 16, 2008, at 17:17:49

In reply to Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 11:14:32

> Deplin.
>
> If any of the following have been issues with taking Deplin, your dosage may be too high:
>
> 1. Poop-out at any point occurring after a robust response.
>
> 2. A worsening of depression after 1-2 weeks.
>
> 3. Vivid dreams or nightmares.
>
> 4. Mild brain zaps.
>
>
> I have restarted Deplin at 1/2 a 7.5mg tablet (3.75 mg) after a washout period of 2 weeks. After 2 days, I am starting to feel better. I am reluctant to make any predictions at this point, but the decision to experiment with a lower dosage of Deplin seems logical.
>
>
> - Scott
>

We do no that part of the process of deplin is conversion of homocysteine to methione to sam-e. Perhaps the 7.5 milligram dose of l-methylfolate depletes the stores of homocysteine so rapidly that eventually there is not enough left to convert to neurotransmitters. Perhaps a full pill is a good loading dose for deplin but once you acheieve the desired response try a half a pill and eventually even a quarter.

 

Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy

Posted by henryo on September 18, 2008, at 19:09:26

In reply to Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by SLS on September 14, 2008, at 11:14:32

Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy. I found it vastly increased my response to Lamictal, which I had been taking for years. What are you taking Deplin with? You could try altering the other med.

 

Re: Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy henryo

Posted by SLS on September 19, 2008, at 6:28:53

In reply to Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy, posted by henryo on September 18, 2008, at 19:09:26

> Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy. I found it vastly increased my response to Lamictal, which I had been taking for years. What are you taking Deplin with? You could try altering the other med.

Currently:

Nardil
nortriptyline
Lamictal
Abilify
Deplin
NAC


How long did it take after beginning Deplin treatment to see a positive response?

I experienced a blip improvement on day 4 that lasted about 12 hours. The next time I felt an improvement was about eight weeks later.


- Scott

 

Re: Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy

Posted by henryo on September 23, 2008, at 4:09:24

In reply to Re: Deplin is usually an augmentation therapy henryo, posted by SLS on September 19, 2008, at 6:28:53

I felt a significant improvement in 24 hours. I continue to feel good after 10 months. I think it helps augment the mood stabilizer part of Lamictal too. I'd love to know why this stuff works form me. The whole folic acid link is mysterious, but it has changed my life. I wish some university somewhere knew the reasons why. You have a multi med cocktail there. I hope that you have good success with that. It didnt work for me very well. The side effects and variables seemed to get compounded.

 

Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2008, at 13:38:17

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high?, posted by bulldog2 on September 14, 2008, at 16:18:41

I didn't realize what this thread was talking about....I found it while looking up something else.

Bulldog, you said (in two posts):

> I believe that deplin works by converting > homocysteine to sam-e. Would it not be cheaper > to just purchase sam-e and play around with > the dosage?

> Here is a chart from the deplin site that > shows it's mechanism of action.

> http://www.deplin.com/HealthcareProfessionals,Action

The way they've shown the mechanism is simplified, and the simplification may be misleading. The enzyme involved in the L-methylfolate mediated conversion of homocysteine to methionine is called (not surprisingly) 5-methyltetrahydrofolate-homocysteine methyltransferase, or MTR. Although the methyl group that ends up being added to homocysteine to yield methionine arises from L-methylfolate (e.g. Deplin), the actual donor is methyl-cobalamin, or methylated vitamin B12. The B12 acts as a shuttle between the L-methylfolate and the homocysteine.

If there is a shortage of L-methylfolate, vitamin B12 can be methylated by another methyl donor, called SAMe. Yes, SAMe can be consumed in the formation of its own precursor. Obviously, that is not an efficient or effective cycle.

There is, however, another enzyme which can facilitate the conversion of homocysteine to methionine, and it's called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase. Betaine is also known as trimethylglycine. This mechanism does not involve a B12 shuttle, as TMG is the direct methyl donor.

Now, to consider the supplementation of SAMe, it really helps to consider the whole methionine-SAMe-homocysteine cycle. Let's assume we start with dietary methionine. An enzyme adds adenosine to the sulphur atom of methionine (the location being designated by the letter S), yielding S-adenosyl-methionine (SAMe). The sulphur atom is also attached to a methyl group, and the adenosine makes the sulphur atom more stable, so it can more readily lose (donate) the methyl group. Once it has done so, the molecule becomes S-adenosyl-homocysteine. The adenosine group is removed by another enzyme (and recycled), yielding homocysteine.

Because methionine is a rather uncommon amino acid in protein-containing foods, and the body requires a stable supply, there are mechanisms to recycle homocysteine back to methionine. Problems arise when those mechanisms fail (e.g. via enzyme defect; deficiency of B12, L-methylfolate, or betaine; defect in L-methylfolate synthesis), both because of possible decrease in availability of SAMe, but also because homocysteine is a cardiovascular irritant, implicated in atherosclerosis. Depressives are more likely than healthy people to have cardiovascular disease, possibly because both may be associated with an underlying homocysteine recycling defect.

If that recycling problem isn't remediated, supplemental SAMe will simply exacerbate the homocysteine problem. SAMe may have short-term benefits, but I am concerned about long-term harm. Far better, IMHO, to enhance natural SAMe synthesis via enhancing homocysteine to methionine turnover, via supplemental L-methylfolate or betaine/TMG.

Regards,
Lar

 

Better Detail Diagrams of Folate/Methylation Cycle Larry Hoover

Posted by Ron Hill on September 30, 2008, at 6:01:27

In reply to Re: Deplin: Dosage too high? bulldog2, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2008, at 13:38:17

Lar,

Long time no talk.

FWIW, here are some flow diagrams with better detail of the Folate Cycle and the associated Methylation Cycle:

See page 5;
http://www.metafolin.com/pdfs/Scientific_Review_13.12.pdf

See Figure 1;
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/10/2653

Figure 1 (above) enlarged;
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/vol136/issue10/images/large/2653fig1.jpeg

Better diagrams of Stahl's than those he has on the Deplin website. See Figure 2 and Figure 5;
http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267

As an aside, here is an article from 2006 entitled "New and Emerging Treatment Options for Neuropathic Pain". I doubt that there is much, if anything, in the article that you are not already aware of, but I thought I'd send it along anyway.

What caught my eye when I first read the article a year or so ago is the tx of diabetic peripheral neuropathy (DPN) using a combination of L-methylfolate, P-5-P, and B12. See paragraph 10, not counting the abstract. DPN has nothing to do with your neuropathic pain, but here's the link anyway:
http://www.ajmc.com/Article.cfm?Menu=1&ID=3156

-- Ron

dx: Bipolar II, with ultra rapid cycling (15 days for one complete cycle), and mild OCPD

300 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
250 mg/day Keppra
60 mg/day Nardil

 

Re: Better Detail Diagrams of Folate/Methylation Cycle

Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2008, at 16:32:27

In reply to Better Detail Diagrams of Folate/Methylation Cycle Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on September 30, 2008, at 6:01:27

Hey Ron! Good to see you're still around.....sometimes, kind of like me these days.

Excellent references, as usual. As described in the metafolin document, folates are critical to the synthesis and repair of DNA. There's more at stake than just converting homocysteine to methionine. I'm glad I've got an opportunity to make that point plainly.....I had limited my thinking to that one concern.

Hope you're doing well, Ron.

Lar


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