Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 783554

Shown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by bleauberry on September 17, 2007, at 18:24:25

Hi. I'm blueberry. Came here for years. Had to re-register, this time bleauberry.

Still struggle, like all of us do. Somewhat improved. The greatest improvements came...about 2 months after weaning off longterm (13 years) meds (prozac, zyprexa, xanax; with a history of all meds you can think of except the MAOIs; and failed ECT).

I've come to believe the body can fix itself given the right diagnosis and treatment. Which rarely includes psychiatric meds. Most of them can be neurotoxic and cause more damage in the long run than benefit in the short run. Long lasting brain changes do occur...and yet the original underlying problem was never fixed.

I'm so glad when I see someone doing real well on something. Someone comes alive on Prozac, for example. Very cool. But at the same time I cringe because I know what they are setting themselves up for perhaps 1 to 5 years later.

Treatment resistant. Tough subject. Why is it that doctors only look at the brain? And sometimes the thyroid? Geez, the body has so much other stuff going on that dramatically affects the brain and mood.

These opinions are from my doc, but I share them. Treatment resistance; multiple sensitivities to drugs, herbs, supplements, or foods; getting worse rather than better; doc says only ECT is left;...there is a cause and it isn't that hard to find. We spend so much money on pdocs and meds. Invest about $1000 to $1500 of that into specific tests and your money would go a million miles further.

For example. Heavy metal toxicity. Either lead or mercury. Worse with both. Got silver fillings in your mouth? Yikes. You just nailed everything right there. Candida overgrowth. Undiagnosed gluten sensitivity or other food allergies you aren't aware of.

These are just the most common biological things behind difficult mood patients.

Mercury. Hard to test for. An excellent book called Amalgam Illness goes into medical detail on the most accurate way to test...it is a urine test and it is not intended to measure mercury...it measures certain damage that is caused by mercury. An astute doctor can diagnose mercury toxicity with just a physical exam. There are telltale signs. Such as amalgam (silver) fillings, adrenal fatigue, low cortisol, thyroid weirdness, weird reactions to meds, overly sensitive, specific easily seen patterns of damage to the nerves in the retina, malabsorption, intestinal problems, a whole bunch of symptoms the doctors are giving different names to, such as fibromylagia or chronic fatigue symdrome or muscular dystrophy, among others. A combo of several of these things is pretty telling. Lead and/or copper toxicity are more easily determined with a simple hair test. Detox is dangerous done the wrong way, and takes time and endurance done the right way. Amalgam Illness is the safest and most popular guide I have seen.

Gluten intolerance. A test can prove it. If you aren't sure, just stop eating everything with wheat, oats, and barley for a few weeks. The health food stores and even grocery stores now have all kinds of foods labeled gluten free, so you don't have to feel deprived. The best homemade bread I've ever tasted is a gluten free mix from the grocery store and super easy to prepare. There are excellent breakfast cereals, both hot and cold. And even a gluten free version of oats. If you can, skip the dairy for a while too. If you are senstive to gluten, you are probably sensitive to dairy also. Tests for about $300-$400 can identify exactly what foods to avoid without any guessing. Do not underestimate the incredible power the toxins from poorly tolerated foods have on your brain! More powerful that alcohol or opiates. There are no meds on the planet that can compete with them. The meds actually only compound the strain the body is already enduring.

Natural supplements of all kinds can help symptoms meanwhile, but the key is identifying which ones and in what doses. Kind of the same game we have all played with heavy duty meds. But the right ones can and do work better than meds and in a way that is harmonious and beneficial to the body and its repair.

Sorry to go so long. I just see everybody so darned focused on the brain and what this drug does and what that drug does without ever considering what's causing the problem that they want the drug to fix. It is likely somewhere else in the body besides the brain. The brain just sits there and takes the damage.

Sadly, our doctors are not trained to look at us this way. It is up to us and/or our alternative or integrative physician to get to the real root of the problem. Thankfully there are awesome lab tests that can even be ordered over the net without a doctor. The same tests a doctor orders and in the same labs.

I am currently undergoing slow but sure mercury detox, following removal of amalgams, and incorporating specific supplements to help the body do what mercury has screwed up. Such as zinc and molybdenum to reduce the excess copper, b vitamins and methyl donors to re-establish the methylation that mercury so strongly destroys, vit c and e for antioxidants protection against the powerful oxidizing of mercury, low dose 5htp to make up for screwed up tryptophan metabolism, fish oil and flax oil a healthy base, and always experimenting with other things to boost mood. Of all the herbs I've tried, and there are a bunch, the most promising so far have been, in order of goodness, ginkgo biloba low dose, maca root ultra low dose, st johns wort low dose, 5htp low dose. Low doses due to hyper sensitivity due to...yeah you guessed it...mercury.

Hey, it aint all in your head.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by bleauberry on September 17, 2007, at 18:45:55

In reply to Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by bleauberry on September 17, 2007, at 18:24:25

Ah, almost forgot. The gut. That's where it all begins. Everything in our brain and body depends on what happens in the gut.

Good ideas. High dose plant based digestive enzymes. High dose probiotics, sometimes up to 10 times what it says on the bottle. Cut down or eliminate caffeine. Cut down or eliminate processed sugars. Cut down or eliminate gluten grains. Avoid fluoride in toothpaste and water. Get a water filter on your kitchen sink. Got copper pipes and no filter? Flush the tap a few minutes before using.

All these things are to reduce bad bacteria in the gut, reduce parasites, repair gut function, eliminate gas, improve absorption, destroy toxins before they get to the blood. All of which affects what goes to your brain.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts bleauberry

Posted by Sigismund on September 17, 2007, at 20:27:08

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by bleauberry on September 17, 2007, at 18:45:55

Yeah, I agree, Blueberry. It's been that way for me at least.
I went to a doctor (about 7 years ago) who specialised in nutritional medicine and sees 2 (two) patients a day and does a lot of tests, and uses next to no drugs.
Some people fly thousands of miles to see him. He's kinda like a biochemist.

I feel a lot healthier for it, which means I feel no sicker than a lot of people look.
I still don't feel that good and take tianeptine, and I've never felt better (in the last 25 years) although that's not saying much.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by Phillipa on September 17, 2007, at 21:41:49

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts bleauberry, posted by Sigismund on September 17, 2007, at 20:27:08

Well before I was sick I got rid of the fillings in my teeth and replaced with caps and took all the nutritional courses Shaklee had. And they were on the forefront with advise. I learned that hair analysis isn't accurate as the hair grows slowly and what they use dosn't show accurately what you're taking now. I do know that my thyroid effects me drastically. A year so far of trying to get it just right. Now it is where it show be and I feel worse. So that wasn't the answer. I ride my 7.5miles on my bike about daily it helps for a while and then the effects fade. I think I'm getting older no I know I'm getting older and don't have the stamina I used to. But there is a missing link still. Is it the lymes disease that lies dormant for now in my body tissue. I agree that MS mimicks lymes disease with chronic fatigue syndrome etc. But I don't understand why the MVI made with food and the Ester C 2000mg a day and the CA+MG arent helping my bones. I remember learning about chelation theraphy in Shaklee way back then and they were the only vitamins that helped me feel good and being younger and running. Had an adrenal test done too. Said it's fine. So why am I now so tired and weaning down on benzos? I don't get it. I too look like I feel good but feel miserable. So what's my problem? Phillipa and blueberry glad to see you back as I've babblemailed you quite a few times. And are you saying you're cured or are working on it?

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2007, at 22:14:50

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by Phillipa on September 17, 2007, at 21:41:49

I agree with you on some respects but not all. Many medications seem to show more neuroprotective activity then they do neurotoxic activity.

Lithium is a prime example. A recent finding too is that SSRIs are neuroprotective in Huntington's disease. Mice with the Huntington gene live longer on SSRI's and take longer to display motor and cognative loss.

Huntington's disease is a disease that manifests primarily through dysregulation of glutamate. Ie SSRI's have an ability to prevent the glutamate toxicity in HD.

http://www.huntington-assoc.com/paroxetine.pdf

Huntingtons is not identical to depression, but I am just pointing out that its not as simple as psychiatric drugs are "neurotoxic".


Linkadge

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 18, 2007, at 15:04:50

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by bleauberry on September 17, 2007, at 18:45:55

Hmmmm, I read that studies have shown that taking vitamin/mineral supplements is a waste of time because the tablets tend to go straight through most people without being absorbed properly. And that most people get the nutrients they need from a healthy diet obviously it's good for anybody to make sure they eat healthily but I wouldn't go as far as suggesting it was a cure for depression.

Also, I'm not about to get my fillings removed or my pipes changed :-) I've had these fillings practically all my life, through being depressed and not being depressed. I don't think they have any bearing on the way I'm feeling.

Denise

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by back4abit on September 21, 2007, at 9:27:48

In reply to Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by bleauberry on September 17, 2007, at 18:24:25

I see the frustration,and i also see many valid points as i believe well later in years look back at how we used scieance to dispense mind altering drugs,*none* this is horrid.

Tests however do reside on the doc,i have doc now who is into testing big time,if u agree he sets up any test you both agree to from hormorne,to thyroid,to adrenal exhaustion,to endocrine testing which is where i believe the actual chemicals are tested,or he assures me this is one of the tests he plans.

So im slowly setting these tests up,however ive seen the horror in the latter,ive seen tons of people able to sell a book using a title of example.."depression free naturaly" i look now and feel they use the titles to draw in the many people who feel a stigma taking drugs,who are so embarrsed by there drug they will do or believe almost anything to not have to use them,to simply be able to say IM NOT ON A DRUG,as they were breed,rightfully so to simply never use drugs.


The problem is without proper testing,attempting a natural healing is just as dangerous,expensive,prob more so there,and long term as finding a med.


There are many tests studies documented show tons of natural imbalances of a depressed vs non depressed patients,including,


Imbances of excito to inhibitory amino acids
A screwed up b vitamin count
various mineral differances etc

The problem again is the strong thought to these findings and the feeding ground for these books is that these results can simply show END RESULTS in depressed people,as its not rare to believe a person depressed would have certain diet habbits,certain cardio lifestyles,bodys sculpted from negative thinking and stress than the latter,and on and on.


So although i wouldent recomend a person use one of these horridly expensive books that recomend a downpour of various aminos,minerals etc being supplemented,and mostly DISCREDTING DRUGS PERIOD,chances are the last one,if in a health book,is a good reference to know what ur reading.


A fair book should value
Convetional on labled meds,unconventional off labl use of certain meds,should speak of diet importance and the benifits of balancing natural nutrients,and also not discredit herbs either.


Until we find a answer,we need all options on the table,one good book i know of is SMART DRUGS & NUTRIENTS,ITS A 2 set combo which speaks of ALL of the above.

Sorry for the long post,but its not a easy answer as its a good statement.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by linkadge on September 21, 2007, at 14:54:13

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by back4abit on September 21, 2007, at 9:27:48

I think people become treatment resistant on account of cellular problems. Antidepressants just affect neurotransmitters. If the cellular structure is not in place, or if there is atrophy/dammage, then the cell is not going to function properly regarless of how much neurotransmitter is available. The neurotransmitter is just a messenger.

Treatment resistance is probably much like diseases like parkinsons, M.S., Huntingtons, Alzheimers, etc where there is extensive cellular dammage.

The monoamine hypothsis is a product of the fact that we can alter monoamines. We can't do much for loss of cellular integrity.

Linkadge

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by rskontos on September 21, 2007, at 15:55:52

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by linkadge on September 21, 2007, at 14:54:13

So Linkage would it follow that people who have been treated so long for any one condition be treatment resistant because the cells are damage and not able to respond to the drugs not necessarily because the drug don't work? I bet it is not that simple either huh? I ask because I am about to open a can of worms that I am not sure after reading so many posts on this site and Crazymeds if it will be worth opening. I have not tried alot of meds for my depression, anxiety and dissociative disorder and after reading everything I can I wonder is it worth it? If everything is going to poop out, and mood disorders are hard to treat everything says so. I have also been on tons of meds for migraines so I am sure there is cellular damage of one kind or another is it worth opening pandora's box. I mean in your case can you say the meds have been worth it? I hope this isn't considered a support question but a med question but I am trying to figure out when do we decide if the treatment that is so resistant is time to say no more? Can they figure out about cellular intregrity?

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by back4abit on September 21, 2007, at 20:39:50

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by rskontos on September 21, 2007, at 15:55:52

> So Linkage would it follow that people who have been treated so long for any one condition be treatment resistant because the cells are damage and not able to respond to the drugs not necessarily because the drug don't work? I bet it is not that simple either huh? I ask because I am about to open a can of worms that I am not sure after reading so many posts on this site and Crazymeds if it will be worth opening. I have not tried alot of meds for my depression, anxiety and dissociative disorder and after reading everything I can I wonder is it worth it? If everything is going to poop out, and mood disorders are hard to treat everything says so. I have also been on tons of meds for migraines so I am sure there is cellular damage of one kind or another is it worth opening pandora's box. I mean in your case can you say the meds have been worth it? I hope this isn't considered a support question but a med question but I am trying to figure out when do we decide if the treatment that is so resistant is time to say no more? Can they figure out about cellular intregrity?

What do you do when you have come to a place,whether it was a good idea or not,but you are at a place where even the little times the meds work before "poop out" is simply worth being totaly unmedicated,assuming u tried that.

Imagine if a doc just simply said nah no more,is that even humaine at that point?

 

Re: cellular damage in treatment resistance linkadge

Posted by fuchsia on September 22, 2007, at 7:55:56

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by linkadge on September 21, 2007, at 14:54:13

I think you're right but I would like to see someone rebut this idea with less gloomy thoughts.

*Some* people recover from treatment resistant depression... don't they?


> I think people become treatment resistant on account of cellular problems. Antidepressants just affect neurotransmitters. If the cellular structure is not in place, or if there is atrophy/dammage, then the cell is not going to function properly regarless of how much neurotransmitter is available. The neurotransmitter is just a messenger.
>
> Treatment resistance is probably much like diseases like parkinsons, M.S., Huntingtons, Alzheimers, etc where there is extensive cellular dammage.
>
> The monoamine hypothsis is a product of the fact that we can alter monoamines. We can't do much for loss of cellular integrity.


 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by rskontos on September 23, 2007, at 14:09:35

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by back4abit on September 21, 2007, at 20:39:50

I have had docs do that to me in regards to my migraines. I am sorry but I can't help you they said and would schedule no more appt. and no they didn't know who else to send me to. I haven't to luck into finally finding a great doc at a headache clinic that offered some relief. Over the years I had many a doc do that to me so yes it does happen. I imagine some people have had that happen in the world of depression too. ON this site I have seen posters say they wished they had not started treatment so it is a legit question. I am also speaking from anxiety I am afraid to start meds and afraid not to, I also feel that now with trials of drugs being so short you have to educate yourself to the point of knowing alot about the drugs available and that to me is scary because I don't often really understand all the medical jargon behind it not the science, so I wonder if I should start. Also, dissociative disorder is noted for not being very responsive. I am justing really trying to learn all I can before I see a p-doc so I know upfront what I am getting into unlike the situation before I went on my first AD. That is all. I just wished the times the drugs worked were longer but in my case it has taken me years to find the right migraine med and so, if that is case for this I am in trouble. For all the science it is alot of trial and error for medications. thanks for your response though it gets me thinking and that is why I am here.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by linkadge on September 23, 2007, at 15:47:29

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by rskontos on September 23, 2007, at 14:09:35

I shouldn't say that such cases are hopelss as there really are some things a person can do to get the cells themselves working better.

Mood stabilizers, at least lithium and valproate, work at a cellular level. They increase the level of many cellular survival factors such as BDNF, BCL-2. They also alter cascades like GSK-3b, and PKC which can dammage cells if too active.

The problem is that they are rearely good antidepressants on their own.

It is possable that long term use could help correct some of the strucural problems associated with mood disorders.

There is some evidence that antioxidant diets, reducing excessive calories, exercise, good fats, etc etc. etc. probably have a favorable impact on cellular survival and repair. Anything that would be considered good in other neurological disease would probably help depression.

This is not to assume that those with mood disorders are actually living unhealthy lifestyles, only that perhaps, they need to do more due to some yet unidentified cause of neurologic insult.

Even in parkinsons, for instance, it is no longer considered a single factor (ie low dopamine) model. There is evidence of cellular decay, insufficiant neurotransmission, loss of receptor/integrity of receptors, etc etc.

There are some preliminary reports of agents like q10 being able to retard the process of the parkinsons, it is a shame that similar studies havn't taken place in depression.

We already know that neurotoxins such as MDMA can produce long term depression, presumably by damging serotonergic nerves.

I am not saying any of these things are proven to work, only that it might be good to study such possabilities.

Linkadge

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by rskontos on September 23, 2007, at 17:50:06

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by linkadge on September 23, 2007, at 15:47:29

Thanks Link that is helpful.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts (nm)

Posted by reese7194 on September 26, 2007, at 19:04:44

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by linkadge on September 23, 2007, at 15:47:29

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by reese7194 on September 26, 2007, at 19:14:57

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by back4abit on September 21, 2007, at 9:27:48

treatment resistant - is a nightmare. i have been on every med there is. from parkinson's to even more expermental meds. worked with some of the most respected and well known people from robert cancro at nyu to others.

he used to run some interesting and advanced tests. finally he felt the only thing that could help was something called "stereotactic" surgery. but it was not known if it would actually work. if one looks at what that surgery is, it is not something.... i couldn't do it.

i found one of the main guys at mclean to be the best, most helpful and caring.

but in the end i feel that it all ends up to nothing and more of you becoming nothing. it is like breaking a bone. the first few times you set it and it heals. but if you continue to break it again and again it can no longer be healed.


i have had to come to the realization, which took me a long time to almost say outloud, that i will never be who i used to be.

now my life is filled with the action of passing time through the actions that end up to almost less than nothing.

to me there is a stage that is not talked about if one does not take off (literally meaning checking out) for some reason it is never mentioned what happens if you don't do this. and you do not get better but get worse.

there is this weird state you enter. where you are almost like a person walking around who is not there. almost like being a person who is not really alive but just bones.

sorry for the fun comments.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts

Posted by Sigismund on September 28, 2007, at 18:51:40

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by reese7194 on September 26, 2007, at 19:14:57

>sorry for the fun comments.

No need. That was a great post, I thought.

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts Sigismund

Posted by reese7194 on September 28, 2007, at 19:41:15

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by Sigismund on September 28, 2007, at 18:51:40

> >sorry for the fun comments.
>
> No need. That was a great post, I thought.

thanks a lot for the comment. later that night i started to wonder what i had written and if it even made sense within the context.

but i mean it, when i say thanks

reese

 

Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts/Reese

Posted by stargazer2 on October 1, 2007, at 18:55:09

In reply to Re: Treatment Resistant Thoughts, posted by reese7194 on September 26, 2007, at 19:14:57

Reese, so much of what you said is how I feel when I experience another relapse and I have lost count of how many times this has happened. Right now I feel well enough to not really remember how bad it gets but your words reminded me of where I've been and where I probably will go again. It has been 30 years for me, starting when the MAO's were used as standard treatment until they failed and then that was the time Prozac was touted as the best drug to come the road in a ong time. I've tried most meds out there and never know if any will workand if they do for how long. How I have kept any belief through this is beyond me since it is such a dark, lonely place to be.

During my relapses my life becomes a series of efforts of going to the drug store, multiple med trials often lasting months, going to my doctor and back again, all trying to keep enough faith to keep doing it over and over. That is a place that can last for months and this past time, more than a year to see any improvement.

It's hard to keep trying over and over and the only thing that sustains me is having a good, caring doctor that listens to me and my suggestions of what to try next. He gives me credit for not giving up and this has gone on with him for about 18 years. So he knows what I have gone through. He know how close I have come to giving up but together we keep trying and occasionally we get to a point where I have periods of normalcy (or so) until the next bout inevitably occurs.

I think I'm finally realizing that I will never
be the person I could have been. Depression has defined who I am and I am sad for all I will never be able to achieve.

Thank you for your honest post.

Stargazer


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.