Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 781684

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Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by polarbear206 on September 10, 2007, at 12:09:38

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 10, 2007, at 10:44:43

>
> >
> > I think the figures are compelling.
> >
> > Lar
> >
>
> Thanks Lar, yes very compelling. Wow, a 49% increase in sucide rates in the Netherlands
> while SSRI prescriptions for youths decreased
> by approximately 22% in both the United States and the Netherlands.
>
>
>
> Results:
> SSRI prescriptions for youths decreased
> by approximately 22% in both
> the United States and the Netherlands after
> the warnings were issued. In the Netherlands,
> the youth suicide rate increased
> by 49% between 2003 and 2005 and
> shows a significant inverse association
> with SSRI prescriptions. In the United
> States, youth suicide rates increased by
> 14% between 2003 and 2004, which is the
> largest year-to-year change in suicide
> rates in this population since the Centers
> for Disease Control and Prevention began
> systematically collecting suicide data in
> 1979.
>
> Conclusions:
> In both the United States
> and the Netherlands, SSRI prescriptions
> for children and adolescents decreased
> after U.S. and European regulatory agencies
> issued warnings about a possible suicide
> risk with antidepressant use in pediatric
> patients, and these decreases were
> associated with increases in suicide rates
> in children and adolescents.
>
>

I am not surprised at all this was going to happen. It was just a matter of time. Yes, the evidence was very compelling. Such a tragedy of young lives lost!

Polarbear

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? sam123

Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 14:06:09

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 9, 2007, at 21:57:31

>And yet in the real world suicide rates for >teens and children are at the highest rates in >more than a decade during a period where >prescribing AD's for this age group declined.

That doesn't mean anything yet. Only time will tell if one is actually causing the other. I'm sure the rate of prescriptions to adults has declined a bit too, has there been a corresponding increase in adult suicide?

Like I said before, there could a reverse plaecbo effect at work wherby the precieved loss of a effective treatment is increasing depression.

In order to truely determine if antidepressants are infact reducing suicde rates there would need to be a double blind placebo controlled study on the likelyhood of suicide, which is unlikely to happen due to ethics.

Linkadge

 

Re: Depends on your point of view Schess81

Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 14:07:37

In reply to Depends on your point of view, posted by Schess81 on September 10, 2007, at 0:25:56

>hat I have come to believe is that anti-
>depressants are a brilliant(and maybe even >beneficial) way to package and sell the placebo >effect; as long as we have a medical >establishment that generally believes that these >substances have an effect on the biology of >depression, the lay person who trusts his doctor >will always have a chance to benefit from the >drug. Not because the AD actually targets the >correct biological source of the depression, but >because of his faith in modern medicine hes >likely to benefit from a genuine placebo effect >regardless.


Thats *exactly* my argument. The increased rate of suicide may more reflect a loss of faith in modern medicine.

Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? sam123

Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 14:20:38

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 10, 2007, at 10:44:43

>Wow, a 49% increase in sucide rates in the >Netherlands
>while SSRI prescriptions for youths decreased
>by approximately 22% in both the United States >and the Netherlands.

But does't that kind of favor my point though? Why does the increase in rate of suicide exceed the rate of drop in prescriptions?

One would need to know if the individuals who were killing themselves were ones who were previously taking antidepressants?

These numbers say to me that there are more people killing themselves than those who were taken off drugs. If it is the drug that was preventing the suicides, then one would expect that the increase in suicides to essentially correspond to those who are no longer being prescribed antidepressants, not more.

So what is accounting for this extra margin? Probably what I am describing.

The fact that it is more says to me that the loss of faith due of medical treatments is extending to those on the drugs as well as off the drugs.
As well, the loss of hope for those who were considering treatment is a big deal.


Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 14:22:31

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by polarbear206 on September 10, 2007, at 12:09:38

Its not compelling at all (IMHO).

Check back in a year and the suicide rate will level out regardless. Suicide rates only adjust like this to abrupt changes in things. You know, stock market crash etc.

Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by sam123 on September 10, 2007, at 14:41:05

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 14:22:31

It is too bad more people have to die to prove what seems clear to some people.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 19:22:25

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 10, 2007, at 14:41:05

>It is too bad more people have to die to prove >what seems clear to some people.

If it only seems clear to some people, then it is only clear to some people that they are dying for that particular reason.

Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by jhj on September 11, 2007, at 8:08:39

In reply to News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by jrbecker76 on September 8, 2007, at 21:40:40


I am fascinated by the statements and arguments made here by none other then devil's advocate.Sample the collection here.

but I can argue that placebos work as well as antidepressants in most clinical trials becuase that is fact based.

In order to truely determine if antidepressants are infact reducing suicde rates there would need to be a double blind placebo controlled study on the likelyhood of suicide, which is unlikely to happen due to ethics.

Suicide rates only adjust like this to abrupt changes in things. You know, stock market crash etc.

These statements can be interpreted as funny only if they are not on such a sensitive topic and read by people suffering for years due to depression.FDA and health authorities should ban antidepressant immediately if according to statement II of above "facts have proved that placebo work as well as antidepressant".

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 12:41:05

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by jhj on September 11, 2007, at 8:08:39

>
> I am fascinated by the statements and arguments made here by none other then devil's advocate.Sample the collection here.
>


I find the right AD's, for me, to be anything but a placebo. They have been very effective for more than a decade. I know what happens when I go off,
I know when one does not work or I hit one the works. The difference is that dramatic.

Link argues AD's are no better than placebo, that is his experience.

I am seeing improvement far past placebo response and there are posters here who have been on AD's a long time and find they do work.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by Jamal Spelling on September 11, 2007, at 13:42:46

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 12:41:05

My own opinion is that, if SSRIs were indeed nothing more than glorified placebos, then surely they should all be equally useful or useless when administered to any particular individual. And yet, most of us who have used SSRIs will attest that, in our own particular case, certain SSRIs work much better than others. For example, my own experience has been that sertaline works much better for me than citalopram. How is that possible if both were merely placebos? Shouldn't I then have benefited equally from both of them?

Jamal

 

Here is one for you Link linkadge

Posted by ttee on September 11, 2007, at 16:06:03

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by linkadge on September 10, 2007, at 19:22:25


Relapse From Antidepressant Medication Likely Due to Loss of Placebo Response


Reuters Health Information 2007. 2007 Reuters Ltd.
Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world.

By Megan Rauscher

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Aug 31 - It cannot be assumed that an antidepressant has lost its effectiveness when a patient relapses while continuing on the medication, because the medication might not have been effective in the first place, according to study findings reported in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry for August.

"We found that the vast majority of relapses occur in presumptive placebo responders," Dr. Mark Zimmerman, director of outpatient psychiatry at Rhode Island Hospital, told Reuters Health.

Some patients with major depressive disorder, similar to other medical disorders, respond to placebo, Dr. Zimmerman explained. "In clinical practice, where everyone is treated with active medication, you do not know if a patient who responds has gotten better because of the active ingredient of the medication or because of the nonspecific effects of treatment (i.e., the placebo response)."

Similarly, relapses that occur during the continuation phase of treatment could be because of true tachyphylaxis or because the initial response to treatment had been a placebo response.

To investigate, Dr. Zimmerman collaborated with Dr. Tavi Thongy on a meta-analysis of four studies involving 750 patients. These were continuation studies of new generation antidepressants that began as placebo-controlled acute-phase studies.

The researchers report that "two different methods of estimating relapse suggested that the majority of relapses in patients taking antidepressants during continuation treatment could be attributed to relapses occurring in patients who were not true drug responders."

This suggests, Dr. Zimmerman told Reuters Health, "that a message can be conveyed to patients who have repeatedly improved on medication and then lost its benefit that perhaps they are more capable than they think in bringing their own resources to bear to improve their depression."

J Clin Psychiatry 2007;68:1271-1276.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? jhj

Posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:16:47

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by jhj on September 11, 2007, at 8:08:39

Untill very recently, drug companies did not need to disclose the trial results on many drugs. They can just keep testing and retesting a drug untill it happens to outperform placebo.

Prime Example:

Go to the GSK clinical trial registry for lamotrigine.

http://ctr.gsk.co.uk/Summary/lamotrigine/studylist.asp

You'd expect that since the drug is FDA approved for bipolar disorder that it outperform placebo right? Wrong. There are like 30 trials resitered there, for things ranging from unipolar depression, bipolar disorder to schizohprenia. Sure there are one or two trials that show the drug is more effective than placebo, but the majority show no such effectiveness.

Also read an article at, about bias on a decent site.

http://www.mcmanweb.com/news.htm

GSK has chosen to be fully honest about disclosing clinical trial informaiton, including those from failed clinical trials, but other companies are not being so open as they know how it will affect public preceptions of drugs.

They likely have failed trials that they are not disclosing. And the FDA does not require that failed trials be used to calculate the overall effectivness of a drug.

Publication bias also affects the viewpoints of the public. Simply put, effective trials get the attention.

A quote from:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6963/7/64

"The prevailing view amongst psychiatrists is that antidepressant medication is of proven efficacy in reducing the severity and duration of major depression and should therefore be used as its first line of treatment [1]. However systematic reviews of randomised double blind placebo controlled trials of antidepressant medication indicate that differences in outcome between drug and placebo arms are often marginal, and may be exaggerated by selective publication or even deliberate misrepresentation"

A meta analysis of placebo effect in 19 clinical trials.

http://www.geocities.com/oppressionactivist/METAANALYSIS_OF_PLACEBO_htm.htm


Also from:

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/June2002/CanPlacebo25.htm

In a soon to be published study, Dr. Arif Khan, a psychiatrist at the Northwest Clinical Research Center in Washington, analyzed the Food and Drug Administration's database of 52 clinical trials in depression, involving nine new antidepressants, conducted from 1985 to 2000. ***Since the agency requires drug companies to report all data from all studies for drugs under development, the database can give a more accurate picture of a new drug's efficacy than the medical journals***, where positive findings are far more likely to be reported than negative ones.

Dr. Khan found that in only 48 percent of the 52 clinical trials was the antidepressant superior to the placebo.


Linkadge



 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? sam123

Posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:18:07

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 12:41:05

>Link argues AD's are no better than placebo, that >is his experience.

Read my previous thread. Skip to the last paragraph. The emperor's new cloths is also
a good read.


Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:19:17

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by Jamal Spelling on September 11, 2007, at 13:42:46

>For example, my own experience has been that >sertaline works much better for me than >citalopram. How is that possible if both were >merely placebos? Shouldn't I then have benefited >equally from both of them?

Perhaps side effects, or lack therof.

Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:20:38

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:19:17

And BTW, if antidepressants work so great, why are y'all here?

Linkadge

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 18:47:38

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? sam123, posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:18:07

> >Link argues AD's are no better than placebo, that >is his experience.
>
> Read my previous thread. Skip to the last paragraph. The emperor's new cloths is also
> a good read.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>

My point being several here have posted that AD's work for them.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by Phillipa on September 11, 2007, at 21:03:20

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 18:47:38

I guess I'm one of those they don't work for but my chemistry is wierdly changing and would like to revisit some I took peri-menopaually as I'm now menopausal and everything is working differently in my body including thyroid gland so meds maybe too? Phillipa

 

Please be civil linkadge

Posted by Deputy Racer on September 11, 2007, at 21:40:55

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:20:38

> And BTW, if antidepressants work so great, why are y'all here?
>
> Linkadge

Please don't post anything which could lead others to feel accused, put down, or otherwise unwelcome here. This site is about support and education -- including offering support to those who are having success with antidepressant medications.

If you have questions about this or any other policy at this site, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

Dr Bob, as always, has ultimate authority here. He may choose to revise or reverse any administrative action taken by a deputy.

Deputy Racer

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?))SAM

Posted by polarbear206 on September 11, 2007, at 21:57:28

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 18:47:38

> > >Link argues AD's are no better than placebo, that >is his experience.
> >
> > Read my previous thread. Skip to the last paragraph. The emperor's new cloths is also
> > a good read.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
> >
>
> My point being several here have posted that AD's work for them.
>
>


Sam,

Just let it go. It's not worth the frustration. Many of us here have success with AD's. I sure have! I am here to support, educate and offer any help I can. It makes me feel good to know that I can give someone hope.

Polarbear

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?))SAM

Posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 22:40:36

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?))SAM, posted by polarbear206 on September 11, 2007, at 21:57:28


>
> Just let it go. It's not worth the frustration. Many of us here have success with AD's. I sure have!


Thanks and you are right. If the best revenge is living well then it follows that the best proof
is also living well. I'll go back to doing that.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?))SAM

Posted by ttee on September 12, 2007, at 0:31:09

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?))SAM, posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 22:40:36

I think it is appropriate to recall that even when the pills "work, they don't cure mental illnesses, they merely reduce some of the symptoms of the problem. Perhaps the meds help some get a jump-start leading to recover from other means. We certainly cannot deny that certain drugs affect mood in a positive or negative way, or long term vs. short-term changes. You cannot tell me that when I drink a few beers and I feel a lot better that that is a placebo effect. I am sure the same could be said about someone taking cocaine. I would imagine the acute antidepressant response of Cocaine vs. Placebo would be well defined. What I wonder is if the AD's, like other drugs, are diminished over a longer time frame, due to tolerance. I think that most all of the AD clinical trials for FDA approval are for less than 8 weeks. What happens after 8 weeks? I guess that is what leads us to Babble.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by jhj on September 12, 2007, at 0:44:11

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 11, 2007, at 12:41:05

I am seeing improvement far past placebo response and there are posters here who have been on AD's a long time and find they do work.

I agree completely.I have social phobia,GAD and dysthymia for at least 15 years and i have tried at least 20 drugs of various classes but with no effect.So,they are like placebo to me and i many time get angry that no treatment is working for me.But,i have read posts here as well as seen people who vouch for the efficacy of antidepressants.I do not think all of them would have reacted the same way if they had been on placebo.So,ADs are better then placebo definitely though they are not working for me.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?-sam123

Posted by jhj on September 12, 2007, at 8:28:45

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? sam123, posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:18:07

Link argues AD's are no better than placebo, that >is his experience.

It is not his experience as per him. read this one.

but I can argue that placebos work as well as antidepressants in most clinical trials becuase that is fact based.

Please see last two words "fact based" whatever it menas.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?

Posted by jhj on September 12, 2007, at 9:17:23

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by linkadge on September 11, 2007, at 18:20:38

And BTW, if antidepressants work so great, why are y'all here?

I am here certainly to know about the experiences of other people suffering from depression and other mental illnesses and learn about the effectiveness of different treatments.I would not have come here,had i known that placebo works as well as antidepressants.

You can get an idea of the gravity of the placebo effect by typing in antidepressant + placebo into your favorite search engine.

I have tried this search before and i am sure many of us have tried it.But,previously i did not know the method of segregating "decent" sites from "biased" sites.

Lastly the revolutionary findings like the similarities between suicide and stock market crash should be presented to the entire world and do not deserve to be known by only people visiting such sites.I think this is sufficient for nobel committee to give nobel prize both in medicine and economy for the same theory which has not happend before in 107 years of nobel history.But,there are some issues here too.

1.FDA and health authorities around the world are cheating people by not banning the antidepressants. If placebo is able to give same benefits with out giving any side effects,then health authorities should make it clear to people not to waste their money for the benefits of few pharma companies.

2. There are going to be some negetive repurcussions for the world economy if facts have proved that antidepressants are no better then placebo.The reason is that millions of employees,share holders and other stake holders of giant phrama companies around the globe would be in miserable conditions due to closure of these companies. And one can only imagine the condition of pdoctors around the world because they would be left with no option but to wonder in the streets with begging bowl in their hands to make their ends meet.

I would request everybody not to consider this post sarcastic because this is written out of genuine appreciation and respect.Thanks.

 

Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated? sam123

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 12, 2007, at 9:25:56

In reply to Re: News - Antidepressants Vindicated?, posted by sam123 on September 10, 2007, at 10:44:43

>
> >
> > I think the figures are compelling.
> >
> > Lar
> >
>
> Thanks Lar, yes very compelling. Wow, a 49% increase in sucide rates in the Netherlands
> while SSRI prescriptions for youths decreased
> by approximately 22% in both the United States and the Netherlands.

I think, perhaps, that you misunderstood me. I meant Figures literally, as in the graphical evidence, rather than the data figures. Still, it's the same evidence, simply presented in a different way.

An old trick I learned from an excellent prof was to hold my completed graph of data points up close to my face, and to look across the dataset at a shallow angle. You can quite easily estimate an appropriate regression line for the set, and also readily identify outlier datapoints. You can do the same thing with these figures, on the computer screen. When you look at the figure for U.S. suicide trends in this way, the latest data point stands quite apart from the others.

A similar procedure for the Netherlands dataset is less conclusive, as there is greater variability about the line of central tendency. Nonetheless, the more typical way of viewing the graph reveals the dramatic upturn in incidence.

The authors of this paper spend quite a bit of time discussing pretty much any possible explanation for the change in trends, and IMHO the only plausible one remains the change in SSRI utilization.

Lar


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