Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 627862

Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase

Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2006, at 14:13:30

http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/pm/1381060.html

Might be of relavance to its theraputic effet.

Linkadge

 

use of tyrosine to augment lithium ?

Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2006, at 14:48:06

In reply to lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2006, at 14:13:30

Perhaps there might be some use in this regard.

Linkadge

 

lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase linkadge

Posted by Squiggles on April 2, 2006, at 18:10:35

In reply to lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2006, at 14:13:30

> http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/pm/1381060.html
>
> Might be of relavance to its theraputic effet.
>
>
>
> Linkadge

I've come across so many theories of how lithium
works - it seems to be intriguing maybe because
it was not designed with foreknowledge to work
in a certain way. But I don't recall this
one - maybe i have it on my lithium site and
forgot.

Could you tell me in layman terms what the
effect of tyrosine hydroxylase is? It's
a bit too technical for me, though I will
hold on to this site.

Tx

Squiggles

 

Re: lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase

Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2006, at 18:31:48

In reply to lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase linkadge, posted by Squiggles on April 2, 2006, at 18:10:35

I'm not sure exactly. I believe it is an enzyme used in the synthesize norepinephrine and dopamine from the amino acid precursor tyrosine.

Linkadge

 

lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase linkadge

Posted by Squiggles on April 2, 2006, at 18:45:10

In reply to Re: lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2006, at 18:31:48

> I'm not sure exactly. I believe it is an enzyme used in the synthesize norepinephrine and dopamine from the amino acid precursor tyrosine.
>
> Linkadge


Thanks;

I haven't looked at all the literature, but
the enzyme hypothesis is repeated here, though
it is supposed that the enzyme interacts with
INOSITOL MONOPHOSPHATE:

"The mechanism of action of lithium is not well
understood but it is hypothesized to involve
modifying second messenger systems. One possibility is that lithium alters G proteins
and their ability to transduce signals inside
the cell once the neurotransmitter receptor
is occupied by the neurotransmitter. Another
theory is that lithium alters enzymes that interact with the second-messenger systems such
as inositol monophosphatase, or others."

-- Stephen Stahl "Essential Psychopharmacology:
Depression and Bipolar Disorder", p. 133.

Stahl makes an interesting point that "overall,
lithium is effective in only 40 to 50% of patients"; i find that incredible but he may not
be defining his sample very well.

What can I tell you - when I first tried it
I felt like I just received a riveting REBOOT.
I just wish it wasn't such a risky drug.

Squiggles

 

Re: lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase

Posted by john berk on April 3, 2006, at 20:34:11

In reply to lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase linkadge, posted by Squiggles on April 2, 2006, at 18:45:10


I think NADH, a co-enzyme of b-3, has similiar effects as tyrosine in regard to increasing Tyrosine hydroxylase, lower levels being seen in some parkinsons patients, NADH has a strong efect on dopamine also..john

 

Re: lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase

Posted by Caedmon on April 6, 2006, at 18:43:51

In reply to lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase linkadge, posted by Squiggles on April 2, 2006, at 18:45:10

> Stahl makes an interesting point that "overall,
> lithium is effective in only 40 to 50% of patients"; i find that incredible but he may not
> be defining his sample very well.

That's what I was wondering. 40-50% of *which* patients?

In unipolar depression: I understand, from my pdoc, that even though Li is the most studied drug for antidepressant augmentation, it tends to produce only marginal response in most patients. (It and T3. This might just be his clinical experience, I don't know. Such a statement surprised me, but then, I haven't read very deeply into the literature. Remission v. response are different things - most studies only look at response.)

- C

 

Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels Caedmon

Posted by Squiggles on April 6, 2006, at 20:27:05

In reply to Re: lithium increases tyrosine hydroxylase, posted by Caedmon on April 6, 2006, at 18:43:51

> > Stahl makes an interesting point that "overall,
> > lithium is effective in only 40 to 50% of patients"; i find that incredible but he may not
> > be defining his sample very well.
>
> That's what I was wondering. 40-50% of *which* patients?
>
> In unipolar depression: I understand, from my pdoc, that even though Li is the most studied drug for antidepressant augmentation, it tends to produce only marginal response in most patients. (It and T3. This might just be his clinical experience, I don't know. Such a statement surprised me, but then, I haven't read very deeply into the literature. Remission v. response are different things - most studies only look at response.)
>

I'm not surprised that it should have a small
effect as an adjunct - even in combination
with other ADs for UNIPOLAR depression. I don't know how
the combined chemistry in adjunct therapy would be, but if lithium
has a "narrow therapeutic index" why should it
change as an adjunct-- does it potentiate other
ADs? You would have to study the interactions,
i guess. It's sort of like colour spectrum
study isn't it?

Most reports I have read, esp. see IGSLI,
report lithium efficacy of 75-80% to bring depression and mania
down in bipolars - the mania and depression
seem linked somehow in bipolars; maybe in
unipolars it is "agitated anxiety"
and depression, requiring a different combination? Just guessing here.

Squiggles


> - C

 

Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels

Posted by SLS on April 7, 2006, at 7:07:04

In reply to Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels Caedmon, posted by Squiggles on April 6, 2006, at 20:27:05

> > > Stahl makes an interesting point that "overall,
> > > lithium is effective in only 40 to 50% of patients"; i find that incredible but he may not
> > > be defining his sample very well.
> >
> > That's what I was wondering. 40-50% of *which* patients?
> >
> > In unipolar depression: I understand, from my pdoc, that even though Li is the most studied drug for antidepressant augmentation, it tends to produce only marginal response in most patients. (It and T3. This might just be his clinical experience, I don't know. Such a statement surprised me, but then, I haven't read very deeply into the literature. Remission v. response are different things - most studies only look at response.)
> >
>
> I'm not surprised that it should have a small
> effect as an adjunct - even in combination
> with other ADs for UNIPOLAR depression. I don't know how
> the combined chemistry in adjunct therapy would be, but if lithium
> has a "narrow therapeutic index" why should it
> change as an adjunct-- does it potentiate other
> ADs? You would have to study the interactions,
> i guess. It's sort of like colour spectrum
> study isn't it?
>
> Most reports I have read, esp. see IGSLI,
> report lithium efficacy of 75-80% to bring depression and mania
> down in bipolars - the mania and depression
> seem linked somehow in bipolars; maybe in
> unipolars it is "agitated anxiety"
> and depression, requiring a different combination? Just guessing here.


Lithium does many diverse things inside the brain. Its overall effect on serotoninergic neurotransmission is to increase it. This action is a candidate for the mechanism involved in the augmentation of antidepressants in the treatment of unipolar depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16475957&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum

I don't know what the track record is of using lithium as an adjunct in unipolar depression in terms of numbers whom respond. However, when it does work, the response can be immediate and dramatic. Dosages used can be as low as 300-600mg, and does not have to produce blood levels as high as those that are considered effective when treating bipolar disorder.


- Scott

 

Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels SLS

Posted by Squiggles on April 7, 2006, at 7:55:12

In reply to Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels, posted by SLS on April 7, 2006, at 7:07:04

Well, i can't argue with that lol.

But I wonder if there is any way to
separate observation of the effect of lithium directly on the thyroid (mania and anxiety being
naturally reduced by hypothyroidism) and
the 5-HT receptor activity - or are they
possibly correlated? Is it possible that
lithium is simply producing hypothyroidism
as an adjunct in depressives or drug-agitated
patients, as well a true manic-depressives?

Squiggles

 

Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels Squiggles

Posted by SLS on April 7, 2006, at 8:12:42

In reply to Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels SLS, posted by Squiggles on April 7, 2006, at 7:55:12

> Well, i can't argue with that lol.
>
> But I wonder if there is any way to
> separate observation of the effect of lithium directly on the thyroid (mania and anxiety being
> naturally reduced by hypothyroidism) and
> the 5-HT receptor activity - or are they
> possibly correlated? Is it possible that
> lithium is simply producing hypothyroidism
> as an adjunct in depressives or drug-agitated
> patients, as well a true manic-depressives?


Hi Squiggles.

The response to lithium can occur within a few days, so I doubt that the thyroid is involved. It takes awhile for the toxic effects of lithium to develop. The effects are dosage-dependent, so I wouldn't expect 300mg to produce thyroid toxicity, even in prolonged exposure.


- Scott

 

Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels SLS

Posted by Squiggles on April 7, 2006, at 8:39:11

In reply to Re: Anti-psychiatry has surpassed Goebbels Squiggles, posted by SLS on April 7, 2006, at 8:12:42

> > Well, i can't argue with that lol.
> >
> > But I wonder if there is any way to
> > separate observation of the effect of lithium directly on the thyroid (mania and anxiety being
> > naturally reduced by hypothyroidism) and
> > the 5-HT receptor activity - or are they
> > possibly correlated? Is it possible that
> > lithium is simply producing hypothyroidism
> > as an adjunct in depressives or drug-agitated
> > patients, as well a true manic-depressives?
>
>
> Hi Squiggles.
>
> The response to lithium can occur within a few days, so I doubt that the thyroid is involved. It takes awhile for the toxic effects of lithium to develop. The effects are dosage-dependent, so I wouldn't expect 300mg to produce thyroid toxicity, even in prolonged exposure.
>
>
> - Scott

OK - that's a good indirect argument;
a more convincing examination would be
to separate two groups given the same
lithium dose and see the results. I am not
sure what you mean by the "toxic" effects
as 600mg lithium is not toxic, unless
it interacts with another drug. Also,
the contention that it takes a long time
for the thryoid gland to respond is not
consistent with my experience. For example,
during a time of thyroid adjustment long
ago, i was overdosed with a thyroid dose
and within a week had manic-like effects,
inluding insomnia and appetite voracity.
While it is true that my dr. told me it would
take about 6 months to stabilize the thyroid
activity on a higher dose, certainly the effects
were immediate and very disturbing.

Squiggles


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.