Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 255219

Shown: posts 12 to 36 of 44. Go back in thread:

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed? » Blake G

Posted by Simcha on August 30, 2003, at 14:26:09

In reply to Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?, posted by Blake G on August 30, 2003, at 11:50:28

Thanks Blake! I'll check it out.

Blessings,
Simcha

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » McPac

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:47:39

In reply to Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:35:17

> Lar,
> for mood stabilizing purposes (bipolar), what do you think would be an optimal daily dose of combined EPA/DHA?

I'm sorry to phrase it this way, but the optimal dose is the amount that works for you. It's too variable to define that way, although statistics (averages) are sometimes used, many times its forgotten that these are statistics.

> Also, do you think the ratio is very important (some formulations claim to have the 'best' ratio)?

I think the emphasis on EPA is inappropriate, but that's my opinion. I like to think natural oils are best.

> I try to take 3 grams a day of EPA/DHA combined.
> p.s. Are any of the other omega fatty acids worth taking for psych problems? Thanks!

At least some of the time (you needn't take it every time, with the fish oil), you would probably benefit by taking a GLA source (evening primrose, borage, or black currant) with your fish oil. The combination of fish oil + GLA has rather potent anti-inflammatory potential.

Lar

 

Re: Lar (again) Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » McPac

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:49:40

In reply to Lar (again) Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:40:45

> "These persons may need 100 to 1,000 mg/day of B-6 to normalize B-6 levels in the body."
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lar, is there a test that shows if B-6 levels have normalized in the body? Thanks!

I do not believe that there are valid tests for most, if not all, nutrients. I'm presuming that we're not dealing with something like obvious deficiency symptoms, such as rickets.

Lar

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed? » Simcha

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:54:53

In reply to Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?, posted by Simcha on August 30, 2003, at 10:29:24

> Larry,
>
> I am a Vegan. I know this is controversial around here.

Being a vegan isn't controversial, is it?

> Can I get the same benefits from flaxseed oil? Do you know anything about this?
>
> Thanks,
> Simcha

The conversion of alpha-linolenic acid, as found in flax oil, to the same long-chain fatty acids that are found in fish oil is very inefficient, according to recent studies. Females seem to do much better than males, but still only achieve 9% conversion.

From the first abstract:

"Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very
low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for
maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals."


Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):355-64

Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of
alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men*.

Burdge GC, Jones AE, Wootton SA.

Institute of Human Nutrition, Level C, West Wing, Southampton General
Hospital, Tremona Road, Southampton, SO16 6YD, UK.

The capacity for conversion of alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to n-3 long-chain
polyunsaturated fatty acids was investigated in young men. Emulsified
[U-13C]ALNA was administered orally with a mixed meal to six subjects
consuming their habitual diet. Approximately 33 % of administered [13C]ALNA
was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h. [13C]ALNA was
mobilised from enterocytes primarily as chylomicron triacylglycerol (TAG),
while [13C]ALNA incorporation into plasma phosphatidylcholine (PC) occurred
later, probably by the liver. The time scale of conversion of [13C]ALNA to
eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) suggested that
the liver was the principal site of ALNA desaturation and elongation,
although there was some indication of EPA and DPA synthesis by enterocytes.
[13C]EPA and [13C]DPA concentrations were greater in plasma PC than TAG, and
were present in the circulation for up to 7 and 14 d, respectively. There
was no apparent 13C enrichment of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in plasma PC,
TAG or non-esterified fatty acids at any time point measured up to 21 d.
This pattern of 13C n-3 fatty acid labelling suggests inhibition or
restriction of DHA synthesis downstream of DPA. [13C]ALNA, [13C]EPA and
[13C]DPA were incorporated into erythrocyte PC, but not
phosphatidylethanolamine, suggesting uptake of intact plasma PC molecules
from lipoproteins into erythrocyte membranes. Since the capacity of adult
males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of
pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate
membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals.

Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):411-421

Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapentaenoic and
docosahexaenoic acids in young women.

Burdge GC, Wootton SA.

Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, Southampton, UK.

The extent to which women of reproductive age are able to convert the n-3
fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA),
docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) was investigated
in vivo by measuring the concentrations of labelled fatty acids in plasma
for 21 d following the ingestion of [U-13C]ALNA (700 mg). [13C]ALNA
excursion was greatest in cholesteryl ester (CE) (224 (sem 70) &mgr;mol/l
over 21 d) compared with triacylglycerol (9-fold), non-esterified fatty
acids (37-fold) and phosphatidylcholine (PC, 7-fold). EPA excursion was
similar in both PC (42 (sem 8) &mgr;mol/l) and CE (42 (sem 9) &mgr;mol/l)
over 21 d. In contrast both [13C]DPA and [13C]DHA were detected
predominately in PC (18 (sem 4) and 27 (sem 7) &mgr;mol/l over 21 d,
respectively). Estimated net fractional ALNA inter-conversion was EPA 21 %,
DPA 6 % and DHA 9 %. Approximately 22 % of administered [13C]ALNA was
recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h of the study. These results
suggest differential partitioning of ALNA, EPA and DHA between plasma lipid
classes, which may facilitate targeting of individual n-3 fatty acids to
specific tissues. Comparison with previous studies suggests that women may
possess a greater capacity for ALNA conversion than men. Such metabolic
capacity may be important for meeting the demands of the fetus and neonate
for DHA during pregnancy and lactation. Differences in DHA status between
women both in the non-pregnant state and in pregnancy may reflect variations
in metabolic capacity for DHA synthesis.

Int J Vitam Nutr Res 1998;68(3):159-73

Can adults adequately convert alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) to
eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3)?

Gerster H.

Vitamin Research Department, F. Hoffman-Roche Ltd, Basel, Switzerland.

A diet including 2-3 portions of fatty fish per week, which corresponds to
the intake of 1.25 g EPA (20:5n-3) + DHA (22:6n-3) per day, has been
officially recommended on the basis of epidemiological findings showing a
beneficial role of these n-3 long-chain PUFA in the prevention of
cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases. The parent fatty acid ALA
(18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used
by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of
the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and
restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that
whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA
occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restricted. The use of ALA labelled
with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated
fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and
3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to
50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an n-6/n-3 PUFA ratio not exceeding
4-6. Restricted conversion to DHA may be critical since evidence has been
increasing that this long-chain metabolite has an autonomous function, e.g.
in the brain, retina and spermatozoa where it is the most prominent fatty
acid. In neonates deficiency is associated with visual impairment,
abnormalities in the electroretinogram and delayed cognitive development. In
adults the potential role of DHA in neurological function still needs to be
investigated in depth. Regarding cardiovascular risk factors DHA has been
shown to reduce triglyceride concentrations. These findings indicate that
future attention will have to focus on the adequate provision of DHA which
can reliably be achieved only with the supply of the preformed long-chain
metabolite.


 

Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady

Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by tealady on August 29, 2003, at 3:34:01

> Pyroluria (pyrrole disorder) (Pyroluria
> (originally known as malvaria) is a genetic condition resulting ...
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/pyroluria.htm
>
> ..hmmm I have just about all those symptoms, then again I've usually take B6 and zinc and EPO...
> Jan
-------------------------------------

Hi Jan,

Jan, thank you for posting the link. Also thank you to Freedom for initiating the topic in this thread. And Larry, many thanks to you for your seemingly endless contribution of informative posts.

After reading the link (and the embedded links) I identified with many (but not all) of the symptoms for pyroluria (pyrrole disorder). So I went to my stockpile of vitamins and supplements and dug out a 100 mg tablet of vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) and a 30 mg capsule of zinc (an amino acid chelate) and took them on an empty stomach. The benefit was profound.

Further, I have continued to take the B-6 and zinc (in isolation of taking my other vitamins) for the past three days and the benefits continue. It's too early to tell if it will last, but I wanted to document my initial response for others on this board to read.

Let me discuss the specifics. I am a bipolar II patient and I take 600 mg/day of Lithobid. It does a good job controlling my hypomania, but for some time now, I’ve been having a very difficult time with dysphoric mood states (extreme irritability). I’m convinced that the foul mood states are somehow related to serotonin deficiencies because when I take an SSRI the irritability goes away. However, I cannot tolerate the SSRI side effects. For a few months niacin was helping, but then it kind of lost most of its effectiveness. I switched to niacinamide, but it did little or nothing. I added some Neurontin (gabapentin) which helped, but the rebound from the short half-life medication left me worse than if I hadn’t taken it to begin with. But when I take the B-6 and zinc my irritability goes away.

But what I don’t understand is that I have been taking the same quantity of B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) as a component of my B-complex for several years. Further, I’ve been taking the same exact zinc chelate everyday for the past several months because of Larry’s writings regarding zinc. So I’m puzzled as to why taking B-6 and zinc by themselves on an empty stomach does such a good job (so far) treating my irritability, but taking the same amount of B-6 and zinc chelate on a full stomach in combination with my extensive matrix of vitamins and supplements does not even touch the dysphoric mood symptoms. Is it some kind of competition issue? Is the small amount (2 mg) of copper in my multi-vitamin interfering with the absorption of the zinc?

Next I plan to experiment with my omega-3 (fish oil) supplementation. I currently remain convinced of the general health benefits and the mental heath benefits of omega-3 fatty acids. However, after reading the links on pyrrole disorder, I got to thinking that my brain “feels good” when I eat foods high in arachadonic acid such as egg yolks and animal organ meats.

Any comments?

-- Ron

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

"Pyroluria is a form of schizophrenic porphyria"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say what????? Surely this doesn't mean that all pyrolurics are schizophrenic????

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:42:15

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

I have pyroluria yet I KNOW that I feel much better (mood stability-wise) since taking fish oil supplements.

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 14:16:12

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18

"Most pyroluric individuals never develop schizophrenia symptoms."

>>>>>>>>>> Just found this on "The Analyst" site.

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

Ron,

I would suggest for time time being avoiding supplements containing copper. 2 mg is not really a small amount.

The issues you described may be explained by a number of factors. These may include dietary components inhibiting absorption, the form of the nutrient, absorption competition with other nutrients. For example supplemental iron and calcium and dietary phytate can inhibit zinc absorption. Copper does not typically effect zinc absorption although high copper levels can inhibit zincs metabolic fucntion.

Dr. William Walsh writes that most pyrolurics have half or more of the symptoms listed on my page.

The following links may interest you:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/zinc.html
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/b6.html

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:00:56

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18

McPac,

No it does not. Roughly 27% of schizophrenics are pyroluric. Dr. Carl Pfeiffer first studied pyroluria in relation to schizophrenia.

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:42:15

McPac,

Every one is different. The statments made about pyroluria and omega-3's are general findings and do not apply to everyone. Everyone, pyrolurics included, needs some omega-3 fatty acids. I would suggest that for pyrolurics the average ideal amount of omega-3 fatty acids, and the ratio to and types of omega-6 fatty acids, is different to others. Maybe you would do better adding evening primrose oil with your fish oil, maybe not? Everyone is unique and chemical imbalances contributing to symptoms often co-exist with one another.

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Blake, thank you very much for the information (nm) » Blake G

Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 23:43:46

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

 

Blake, thanks for the great post and links (nm) » Blake G

Posted by tealady on September 3, 2003, at 4:35:31

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

 

Blake, Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24

Hi Blake, thanks for those responses.
I've got a question for you.....I go to Pfeiffer Treatment Center and they are currently treating me for a very high histamine level.....I'm taking shovelfuls of supplements every day, they've had me on this supplement regimen for almost 9 months now, mainly designed to lower the histamine (I was also found to be zinc deficient, high copper, pyroluric)...anyway, my histamine level was 129 when first tested (October of 2002)...AFTER all of their supps I was retested in late June of this year and it was 186!! VERY disappointing to say the LEAST! Now, Pfeiffer's theory is that histamine blocks serotonin production, which results in my problems (depression/ocd/anxiety/insomnia)...they say that if I get my histamine level down that I should feel better....the serotonin-enhancing meds DEFINITELY make me feel much, much better...do you buy their theory Blake? Does high histamine block serotonin? Will lowering that high histamine level allow more serotonin to be produced? Pfeiffer focuses on this ENDLESS long-term plan of reducing histamine levels...the supps are all designed to lower histamine...but while that endless goal is being attempted, I strongly think that they should be giving me more supplements to increase serotonin activity...that way they could keep their long-term, endless goal while also trying to alleviate my symptoms NOW...it doesn't do me much good to have to deal with these problems everyday while waiting forever for their goal to be reached...their supps aren't going to do anybody SQUAT (vitamin a,c,d, methionine, tmg, etc.) for severe problems....sure, that may be the way to lower histamine eventually (after years and years) but what is that weak, lame crap going to do right NOW!? Kind of like going to the hospital while bleeding to death and having them give you something that will take 2 years to begin working! Any thoughts on all this Blake? Much appreciated!

 

Blake, Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 22:11:42

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24

One other thing about Pfeiffer........folic acid is totally off-limits for me, according to Pfeiffer (and niacin as well) due to my high histamine levels...but so many depressives are HELPED by folic acid that I really wonder whether that is smart for me to NOT be taking it? (I took it for a short while before going there and told them that I thought it was helping!) That would be a shame if I could be taking it and having it help me, rather than not taking it because of their 'theory'. Also, they have me only taking certain B-vitamins (B6,B12), what about all the rest---for one thing, I've read that only taking certain B-vitamins can throw the other B's out of whack...furthermore, I've read that being deficient in other B's (B1, B2 and others) can cause depression...what do you think of my being on ONLY ceratin B-vitamins while totally excluding most others? Thanks!

 

Pfeiffer

Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 22:19:22

In reply to Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17

In case anybody is wondering why I just don't ask Pfeiffer these questions, the answer is very simple...........Pfeiffer's system of communication STINKS! As in worthless!

 

Re: Blake, Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 4, 2003, at 3:53:33

In reply to Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17

McPac,

I'm sorry to hear you have not got the results you are looking for. It's hard to say without knowing what your test results where are what exact supplements you are taking. Some of the supplements which generally lower histamine also raise serotonin. These include calcium & methionine. I do not know why your histamine has gone up? There is some evidence that histamine antagonizes the metabolic effects of serotonin. The real test of effectiveness, as you know, is if you feel better. It sounds to me like there is something more complicated at play than simply histadelia (high histamine). I would encourage you should give them a call and discuss these issues with them.

The way to determine if one should avoid folate is to look at their red blood cell folate levels. A histadelic with high levels should probably avoid folate, while a histadelic with low levels should restore there stores. You are right, many people with depression are low in folate.

Are you familiar with water fasting under resting conditions. This historical healing technique was used by the three renowned Fathers of our Western Medicine - Hippocrates, Galen and Paracelsus. It encourage an advanced state of detoxification and rejuvenation. It is known to restore chemical balance. Hunger typically disappears after about 2 days. There is a listing of doctors who are qualified to supervise fasts at the following link:

International Association of Hygienic Physicians
http://free.freespeech.org/nhn/iahp/index.html

Let me know if you want more information regarding fasting or any thing elese.

Regards, Blake

 

How many months is a fair trial ..4 months?

Posted by tealady on September 4, 2003, at 5:18:48

In reply to Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17

I think you should try talking to them too..even if difficult.
Part of the problem would have to be that science just does not know it all as yet, so there may be something about you they have not yet discovered that makes things work differently.
Did they test your blood folic and niacin levels?
I need zinc and B6, B12 too(only found out by looking at symptoms)..and my folate was over the top of range too..but then I do take a multiB for balance..only because I read you were supposed to. I've been told by a doc on a forum tha my histamine response not "by the book" on a no of occasions too...haven't worked out what that means or what one is supposed to do about that yet!

I'm hoping for some feedback, but I would THINK most vitamin/drug reactions, up or down regulations etc should be fairly stable by 3 months..so 4 months is a fair trial of anything?
I realise there are fast and slow responders for everything..but is 4 months a fair trial for some drugs that may say downregulate receptors and hence increase other neurotransmitters?
Is there a "typical" time for neurotransmitters to be up or downregulated in?...like say 12 weeks?(I'm picking that as for thyroid users on "armour" a large percentage noticed a "reaction" at 12 weeks...I even called it the "12 week crash"). At least for me , I've always felt the effects of drugs, vitamins etc by 3 months..
Jan

 

Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

> > Pyroluria (pyrrole disorder) (Pyroluria
> > (originally known as malvaria) is a genetic condition resulting ...
> > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/pyroluria.htm
> >
> > ..hmmm I have just about all those symptoms, then again I've usually take B6 and zinc and EPO...
> > Jan
> -------------------------------------
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> Jan, thank you for posting the link. Also thank you to Freedom for initiating the topic in this thread. And Larry, many thanks to you for your seemingly endless contribution of informative posts.

It's an interaction, Ron, that I really enjoy. Without your, and other's, feedback, I would have nothing more than book-learning. It's where the rubber hits the road, real people having real experiences, that I really get insight. I thank you for contributing so much to the dialogues.

> After reading the link (and the embedded links) I identified with many (but not all) of the symptoms for pyroluria (pyrrole disorder). So I went to my stockpile of vitamins and supplements and dug out a 100 mg tablet of vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) and a 30 mg capsule of zinc (an amino acid chelate) and took them on an empty stomach. The benefit was profound.
>
> Further, I have continued to take the B-6 and zinc (in isolation of taking my other vitamins) for the past three days and the benefits continue. It's too early to tell if it will last, but I wanted to document my initial response for others on this board to read.
>
> Let me discuss the specifics. I am a bipolar II patient and I take 600 mg/day of Lithobid. It does a good job controlling my hypomania, but for some time now, I’ve been having a very difficult time with dysphoric mood states (extreme irritability). I’m convinced that the foul mood states are somehow related to serotonin deficiencies because when I take an SSRI the irritability goes away. However, I cannot tolerate the SSRI side effects. For a few months niacin was helping, but then it kind of lost most of its effectiveness. I switched to niacinamide, but it did little or nothing. I added some Neurontin (gabapentin) which helped, but the rebound from the short half-life medication left me worse than if I hadn’t taken it to begin with. But when I take the B-6 and zinc my irritability goes away.

Makes me wonder if the dose of niacin you were using adversely affected other metabolic processes which are dependent on B6 and/or zinc. Perhaps you can go back to niacin later, once you get more experience with the tweaking.

> But what I don’t understand is that I have been taking the same quantity of B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) as a component of my B-complex for several years. Further, I’ve been taking the same exact zinc chelate everyday for the past several months because of Larry’s writings regarding zinc. So I’m puzzled as to why taking B-6 and zinc by themselves on an empty stomach does such a good job (so far) treating my irritability, but taking the same amount of B-6 and zinc chelate on a full stomach in combination with my extensive matrix of vitamins and supplements does not even touch the dysphoric mood symptoms. Is it some kind of competition issue?

It does appear to be the case, but I can't think of any specific reason for that to occur.

> Is the small amount (2 mg) of copper in my multi-vitamin interfering with the absorption of the zinc?

Zinc modulates copper uptake, but not the other way around. Your zinc dose may well be suppressing copper uptake, but drinking water from copper plumbing can have astounding amounts of copper in it. I'd have trouble believing anyone could be having trouble getting enough copper.

Have you explored the Linus Pauling Institute website? For each nutrient listed, it also talks about interactions. Maybe you'll get an "A-hah!" moment from that.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/contentnuts.html

> Next I plan to experiment with my omega-3 (fish oil) supplementation. I currently remain convinced of the general health benefits and the mental heath benefits of omega-3 fatty acids. However, after reading the links on pyrrole disorder, I got to thinking that my brain “feels good” when I eat foods high in arachadonic acid such as egg yolks and animal organ meats.
>
> Any comments?
>
> -- Ron

Egg yolks and organ meats have a lot more in them than just arichadonic acid, Ron. I'd hesitate to jump to that conclusion.

Lar

 

Re: Thank you for your input. It means a lot. » Larry Hoover

Posted by Ron Hill on September 4, 2003, at 11:15:46

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18

> Have you explored the Linus Pauling Institute website? For each nutrient listed, it also talks about interactions. Maybe you'll get an "A-hah!" moment from that.
>
> http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/contentnuts.html

I only found the site a couple days ago when Blake posted the links. Thanks for the table of contents. It's a great site and I'll spend some time reading the various pages.

Thanks Lar.

-- Ron

 

Re: Blake, Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 4, 2003, at 17:57:39

In reply to Re: Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 4, 2003, at 3:53:33

The way to determine if one should avoid folate is to look at their red blood cell folate levels.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got all my test results from Pfeiffer right in front of me. No where does it show any results for red blood cell folate levels. I really wonder if they just do a lot of assuming, i.e. "well, if the patient is histadelic then he MUST already have too much folate"...hard to tell what they're doing when you can't simply ask. Pfeiffer's communication with their patients is lousy, as others here on this board have also found out.

Are you familiar with water fasting under resting conditions. Let me know if you want more information regarding fasting or any thing elese.

>>>>>>>>> I'm not familiar with it Blake. Seems like it might be hard to do though when consuming gobs and globs of supplements throughout the day and night along w/ meds. (MANY supps! I've posted the list before and will do it again if you think I should). Can you do it safely under those conditions? Sure, I'd be interested in trying many things. Although what I really want to do is to increase my serotonin. The ssri's work great for me for depression/ocd/anxiety...however, I get a terrible anger/irritability/agitation reaction from them (Dr. Amen says it's a temporal lobe issue)..... I've never tried taking something like tryptophan or 5htp (I've read so much contradictory stuff about those that I don't know what to believe...then again, I don't know if those substances end up getting converted in the brain to serotonin in significant amounts anyway.....I guess the only way is to just try them and see what happens....read something today that says don't take 5htp w/ antidepressants....please.

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by chris_masterjohn on October 30, 2003, at 9:00:55

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

Hi folks,

Someone recently brought pyroluria to my attention a week ago, and I've never seen anything that brings my symptoms together so thoroughly, nor describes so cleanly why the dietary changes which I've made over the last year and a half have caused the reversal of so many of my symptoms.

However, my doctor has never heard of pyroluria, and it's not on the list of tests he can run at the lab. We sent my urine in anyway with a note to check for pyrroles to see if the lab techs were familiar with it anyway, and we'll see what happens. I'm worried, if they do test, about false negatives, because I eat tons of zinc in my diet and have recently taken B6 in the last few days, and I've read that supplements should be stopped for two days before the test, but don't know the significance or accuracy of this.

I'm having trouble finding technical information, especially as regards diagnosis, and Medline has nothing on diagnosis whatsoever. If anyone could please point me to technical info especially on diagnosis I would greatly appreciate it.

Below is a message on why I believe I might have pyroluria, excerpted from another forum post I'd made.

Chris
________

The reason I believe I might have pyroluria is that I've had teeth problems all my life and mental problems since my early teens. The latter (panic disorder, OCD, phobias) aggravated to nearly the point of psychosis after a year of being vegetarian. (read: deficient zinc and arachidonic acid) The introduction of n-3-enhanced eggs, (1 a day) fish, and fish oil did nothing for it (actually, it got worse), but my nearly daily panic attacks ceased almost immediately upon the introduction of daily beef into my diet, and 8 years of anxiety disorder complex disappeared after a month or so of dramatically increasing my egg(3-6/day), (raw)milk, cream, butter, red meat, and liver consumption (and I mean dramatically), which I was actually doing for my teeth. Speaking of teeth, I've had either congenital enamel displacement or fluorosis depending on the dentist, most of my life, and my tooth decay rate when I was a vegetarian went up astronomically, so that ONE dental appt yielded the diagnosis of 15 cavities and two root-infected teeth. After changing my diet I had 0 cavities in the following year and a half. I also had white spots on my fingernails, which are still there but much better. I've always had trouble sleeping, bad digestion, and poor dream recall, which are still significant problems. I have a tendency to have nightmares, which I've never seen listed, but seems related to trouble falling asleep. I've also had a problem with sudden explosions of anger, which are better now. Pyroluria seems to pull all these things together, and also explain why dramatic increases in red meat (zinc) egg (arachidonic acid), milk and milk fat (arachidonic acid, B6) and liver (zinc, B6, arachidonic acid), as well as soaked or sprouted whole grains (B6, and in oats GLA -->AA), reversed many of my symptoms and mitigated others somewhat. I'm hoping if I DO have pyroluria arranging my diet to further maximize my zinc, B6 and AA intake, decreasing my cod liver oil (n-3) intake, and possible supplementation if needed (B6 the most likely candidate), can help me optimize my health and normalize my other symptoms such as trouble sleeping. In the few days since discovering the existance of pyroluria I've increased my oyster (zinc) consumption, and have been supplementing with B6 at night, and I've fallen asleep much easier, and felt better with less sleep upon waking, and the other night had vivid dreams (I rarely "have" dreams, except nightmares occasionally). I have to wait and see if this program continues to work, because often times I find something will help me sleep, but it will lose its effectiveness after a week or two. If anyone can direct me to technical information of any kind, especially detailed information on diagnosis and the proper lab tests for both my own curiosity but more importantly to give to my doctor, I would greatly appreciate it. I can be emailed at ChrisMasterjohn@aol.com. If you email me privately, please put "pyroluria" somewhere in the subject line, preferably in caps, so I notice it. Thanks for any help! Chris
_____
Update:
It's been about a week now that I've been taking B6 in the form of pyrydoxine HCl, and I haven't yet had trouble sleeping, and I've on the whole felt better and more rested getting up in the morning, and woke up before my alarm clock a couple times. I've also been dreaming more, and apparently moving more in my sleep (My pillow came out from under me and fell off the bed last night)-- which I *think* would mean more REM sleep, and be positive, but I'm not sure (intuitively I could conceive of it being a negative effect).
____
I haven't read all the posts yet, but I do want to say on AA and n-3s, etc, that my personal experience is that n-3s in the form of algae-derived DHA, fish oil, or cod liver oil, seem not to have helped me, that I got signficantly worse while still a veggie but adding eggs fish and these supplements into my diet, and got far better after dramatically increasing my AA, so clearly for some people this works. I agree that most Americans have too much n-6 vs n-3, but this comes primarily from vegetable oils and grains, so I suspect that the damage primarily comes from competition with the scant n-3s for desaturase enzymes and deficiency of longer-chain n-3s, rather than overexpression of AA synthesis.

Also, EPA interferes with the synthesis and activity of AA when it is pre-formed in the diet, so it IS sensible that some people with pyroluria or some other AA-deficiency would be worsened with EPA/DHA supplementation.

Finally, I agree with Lar that EPO is a relatively poor source for AA as it doesn't not contain AA but rather GLA; however, if, say, to make math easy, 10% of LA is converted to GLA and 10% of GLA is converted to DGLA and AA, than while GLA would be relatively poor, it would be 10 times more effective than LA, which is the main n-6 fat in the SAD I believe.

Thanks for any help,
Chris

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by chris_masterjohn on October 30, 2003, at 9:14:29

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18

"However, after reading the links on pyrrole disorder, I got to thinking that my brain “feels good” when I eat foods high in arachadonic acid such as egg yolks and animal organ meats.
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > -- Ron
>
> Egg yolks and organ meats have a lot more in them than just arichadonic acid, Ron. I'd hesitate to jump to that conclusion. "

------------>Exactly!

Egg yolks and organ meats are loaded with compounds that will help you including B vitamins, fatty acids, cholesterol, phospholipids, fat-soluble vitamins, etc. I'd emphasize getting clean organ meats and eggs preferably from pastured animals. Plus, eggs from pastured (not "free-range" but actual access to insects and whatnot) chickens are excellent source of DHA anyway, in addition to AA.

I don't have the time to battle all the junk science about cholesterol and saturated fat and animal fats in general causing heart disease and all that other rubbish, so forgive me if I decline to debate this but suffice it to say if you have pyroluria or probably any other mental problems organ meats and egg yolks are probably your ticket to health.

They certainly were mine. I was nearly psychotic and am more mentally healthy now than I've been since my early teens, thanks to my accidental cure of astronomically increasing my animal fat intake, including eggs and organ meats.

Chris

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 4, 2003, at 15:23:57

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by chris_masterjohn on October 30, 2003, at 9:14:29

Pyroluria is unusual in that if a person has pyroluric schizophrenia (27% of cases) then omega-3 fish oil seems to be unhelpful,even contraindicated.Primrose oil is useful instead.I have given the main symptoms and treatment in www.omega3.20megsfree.com/whats_new.html.If you know somebody with schizophrenia please read this
as you could change their life utterly by referring them on if they have these symptoms.

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 15, 2005, at 18:04:40

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18

This topic has not been updated for two years now and I thought it worthwhile to bring up the subject again.
I am a family doctor in Ireland and I do various tests on patients with psychiatric problems.Pyroluria is the easiest one to treat.It may manifest itself as depression,loss of libido,schizophrenia or bipolar,especially rapid cycling bipolar.Patients generally have about half of these symptoms: small stature, interested in spicy foods,being a night person,rarely dreaming except perhaps for nightmares, skipping breakfast,a hot temper,poor short term memory with a normal long-term memory,social isolation,sensitivity to light and loud noises,high anxiety,often diagnosed as dyslexia at school where reading can be a problem and dry skin.It is usually associated with low B6 and zinc deficiency and responds,sometimes very well and in a matter of weeks to B6,zinc,evening primrose oil and other antioxidants. A test for kryptopyrroles in the urine usually provides the diagnosis.


Go forward in thread:


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.