Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 13781

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Hello everyone

Posted by Scooter1 on July 24, 2003, at 8:43:06

In reply to Re: anyone had weight gain?, posted by midgie1007 on July 24, 2003, at 8:04:43

Good morning everyone, hope you are all feeling well today. I myself had I would say a good day yesterday. I have been on 37.5 for 9 days now and finally most of the SE's are gone. I am still having problems sleeping at night. I take my dosage ar 12:00 in the afternoon. Today I go see a pdoc. This will be my first time ever, I wonder what he/she will say. I am very curious. Tomorrow I go see a psychotherapist that is through my job. I hope they both have some great insight to my anxiety. I have also been reading a book on overcoming anxiety, long term. I mentioned earlier that being away from my family is really quite bothersome for me. My husband was prior military and that is what took us away from our immediate family, because of job and finances we were unable to move back closer to home, which is down south. I am currently living in the D.C. area, to busy here for me, and all everyone thinks about is there job..... I am more along the thinking that family is more important. I really enjoy hearing the experiences of all of you, knowing that I am not alone in this world with issues, some worse than others, some not as bad. I hope you all have a great day, and I will post you on what the pdoc says. scooter1


Re: No imposters here CherC68

Posted by catachrest on July 24, 2003, at 8:51:17

In reply to Re: No imposters here Daphnis, posted by CherC68 on July 23, 2003, at 15:38:19

Hi Cher, I'm Susan.

I know I'm new here and don't really know you guys yet, but I have to say - please, don't self-medicate with a prescription that's not yours!!! Yikes! If you feel Xanax will be better than what you've taken in the past, please, see a doctor about it, or at least talk to a knowledgeable pharmacist first. Sharing medicines without a doctor's supervision is just not a good idea, especially medicines designed to mess with your head.


> Right now I have a prescription for Xanax (which is not mine a friend gave me hers!)


Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes willie

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:14:57

In reply to Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes, posted by willie on July 23, 2003, at 19:02:36

It was me who mentioned the "faking it" part. I wonder if it stems from my lack of assertiveness in demanding what I want out of life. Or it stems from my very strict mother who let me know at an early age that what I wanted wasn't important.

Anyways, dosages. I've found that regular doctors prescribe AD's with fewer follow-ups than pdoc's. Pdoc's have follow-ups bi-weekly or so until you reach a "therapudic(sp?) level".

KDi in Texas


Re: Effexor XR Daphnis

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:21:18

In reply to Effexor XR KimberlyDi, posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 22:29:09

Regular Effexor is absorbed into the body quicker than XR (which means Extended Release). This means that I have to take the Regular Effexor twice a day, instead of the 1-a-day XR. My insurance has a cheaper co-pay for the Regular Effexor than the XR Version. There may be other differences that I'm not aware of.
KDi in Texas

> Hey KDi, what IS the difference between Effexor and Effexor XR?? I looked it up on Google but only got info on effexor XR so thought I was mistaken and it must be all the same.


Re: Hi All... Thank you YankeeGirl! Yankeegirl

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:43:11

In reply to Re: Hi All..., posted by Yankeegirl on July 23, 2003, at 23:26:51

Thanks for the laugh this morning. The "I'm fixable" remark was so funny. I'm currently suffering from a relapse in depression. I had to half my dosages over the weekend to avoid running out. The full dosages haven't kicked in yet or I need to go to a higher dose. Your remark about even a phone call seeming overwhelming struck a chord. I have some bills to pay but I keep putting it off. I have the money in the bank. I'm just overwhelmed by the thought of finding the bill envelopes and writing out a check.

Oh, and THANK YOU! The upping the dosage remark I made, it made me wonder when my next appointment with the p-doc is. It's TODAY at 4:00!

KDi in Texas

> > Hi Cher, I totally understand how you don't have the energy to call a pdoc. That is the major clue for me that I am depressed, is that a simple phone call is too overwhelming to accomplish. (I used to get seasonal affective disorder, or winter blues, and that was my main reaction to it)
> I don't know why nobody on this site talks about what they learn in therapy. My understanding is that the Effexor is only part of a successful treatment, that some kind of therapy is necessary too, for most people. Well, I've been on Eff 4 weeks, but today was the first time I actually had a talk with my pdoc. What a revelation! We went over the results of my psychiatric personality testing (called Minnesota something or other, I'll find out the name next week) where I answered about 700 true-false questions. I was diagnosed with depression and avoidant personality disorder. When she read the description of that from the (DSM?) book, I kept saying, "That's me! That's me!" I am SO HAPPY and EXCITED tonight. My problem has a name! They know how to fix me! They assured me I am fixable! I am so excited!
> Cher, I urge you to make that one phone call for a pdoc. If you can't do it, maybe your son or husband will do it for you. I think that your mental health is more important right now than your carpal tunnel surgery. It's pretty scary for us to hear how deep in the depression you are right now, and I hope you can decide to put your needs first and foremost, for the first time maybe, and get the help you are needing. The hope I feel today is worth any amount of money. I am so excited about my pdoc helping me that I would do anything legal to pay for it - I'd even ask relatives for money. First I'd call all the ones who bullied me all my childhood - HA! "This is your fault - give me money!!!"
> Seriously, please call a psychiatist today!
> Sending caring prayers, Yankeegirl


Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? indium

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:54:13

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by indium on July 24, 2003, at 6:16:32

My Pdoc told me that Immediate Release (IR) Effexor isn't equivalent to Effexor XR. 375mg IR doesn't = 375mg XR in effectiveness. You would probably have to take more of the IR, broken into 4-6 hr dosages, all day to come close to the XR version.
That's just my 2 cents worth.
KDi in Texas

> anyone any thoughts on the difference between effexor XR and immediate release effexor? For me 375mg of XR is amazing. the only thing that's ever worked, but of course that's more than allowed to be prescribed. 375mg of original effexor only just takes the edge off. Anyone know why the prescribable doses are different or hwo to take the immediate release stuff so it has anything like the effect of the XR?


Re: Daphnis and Zinya, everyone willie

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 9:59:30

In reply to Re: Daphnis and Zinya, everyone, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 7:51:18

hi Willie (and Daphnis and all),

You've made me smile at the coincidence. I too highly recommend Woititz's book (and just to let you know, Dr. Bob likes us to use a system of this website where you put a book title inside double-double quotes and it automatically finds the book in amazon and links to the page in amazon, where people can read more about it and potentially buy it -- so I'll do it here "Adult Children of Alcoholics".)

I read it myself back in the late 80's as well as its sequel "Struggle for Intimacy" and found them invaluable. As it happens, I became a family communication professor and you'd be amazed how many college kids deal with an alcoholic parent and I too routinely found myself recommending this book to students who always found it very helpful. What's so particularly good about the book, imo, is its concrete focus on specific habits of mind and language that a child of an alcoholic (or of really any kind of addictive pattern -- any '-holism') assimilates growing up and become part of our sense of "normal" but are really quite dysfunctional patterns. I think it's an invaluable and very practical book for almost anyone actually. Those who study "dysfunctional family" patterns claim that over 90% of families could be called dysfunctional, something related to why I chose that field of work because I believe so strongly in just how fundamental early childhood socialization is in the lives of all of us ... and even to society as a whole.

So, we're very much on the same page, Willie! I think originally it must have been a therapist of mine who also first turned me on to Woititz as well as a couple of other authors but she stands out because her analysis is so concrete, so full of specific examples of how we carry on inside our minds the legacy of such worldviews. By the way, I always think it's important to add that for me at least, this is not at all about scapegoating or blaming parents. They themselves grew up under dysfunctional family patterns and, until someone begins to see what it is they have 'inherited' -- which is one of the blessings of our era, that such topics are now more "out of the closet" and that there are places like this website and more access to therapy, etc. -- our parents were stumbling in the dark and also had internalized lots of dysfunctional patterns from their parents. So, imo, it's important to read and undertake such reflections with empathy for one's parents as well, rather than a sense of blame or guilt, etc.

As to what you say about your dosage levels, gosh, Willie, November seems like a long time off. It is great that your md. will use e-mail, but given your uncertainty about things (granted, i realize you're wanting to see first if a change at work alters your current concerns) but i would certainly not wait that long to put your questions to him -- about whether he considers 37.5 to be the maximal dose for your situation. It sounds like he expects you to only be on it for a few months? Since every diagnosis is unique, none of us can know why he would choose a particular dosage max. or why, but I'd try if i were you to at least put those kinds of questions to him so you feel you at least know what his thinking is more clearly about why this level and what the goal is, plus letting him know your specific symptoms as they evolve.

hope you're having a good day!


Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problems? catachrest

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 10:01:56

In reply to Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problems?, posted by catachrest on July 23, 2003, at 14:50:41

Welcome to psycho-babble! Best way I know of to help with the sleeping is Benedryl (generic is fine). The drowsiness is another issue. I exist on coffee & dr.peppers.
Good Luck!
KDi in Texas

> Hi there,
> I'm pretty new to Effexor; started at 37.5 mg about 5 days ago. Overall I'm not minding it, and I haven't had a panic attack or really really low mood since I started. But I'm finding the drowsiness and the problems sleeping hard to deal with. From reading what others have put here it looks like this will most likely stop eventually as my body gets used to it, and I'm okay with that, but as it stands, I've been at work all day and haven't gotten anything done. I feel drowsy and absolutely uninterested and unmotivated in my work. For three nights I've had trouble getting to sleep, and I wake up often at night and don't seem to dream. Can anyone recommend to me a safe, non-medicinal way of dealing with these side effects for the meantime? I'm committed to getting better - can't handle the depression any more - but I also really need to be able to work.
> By the way, thanks for all the information and support I've gotten just from reading old posts. I'm pleasantly surprised at the general standard of articulateness in peoples' writing here - it makes me feel like you guys are intelligent, thinking people, and if you can be depressed and get help for it too, then no shame for me!
> Thanks,
> Susan


Re: phone calls and 'small talk' YankeeGirl! KimberlyDi

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 10:25:49

In reply to Re: Hi All... Thank you YankeeGirl! Yankeegirl, posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:43:11

hi KimDi and YankeeGirl,

Just to add here how much you indeed are not alone in finding even a phone call to be too much unless it's from one of my best friends who knows exactly what's going on with me now. I screen my phone calls cuz i just can't "afford" to be "ambushed" by a call from someone that would require energy to talk to (well, initially it was cuz i was completely fed up with about 10 telemarketers per day but it's also cuz some people i just can't talk to now for energy reasons alone -- anyone i would think i have to "explain myself" to -- The kinds of friends of lesser intimacy who do things like insist i have to go out more or other things -- and who don't realize that they are people who convey expectations for "how i should be" and so i'm avoiding them now -- as my bereavement counselor too has encouraged me to do. Of course ultimately, as she says, i need to be able to resist questions that seem geared to make me explain myself but for now at least, just knowing that those people are stressors for me and avoiding them is the healthiest thing i can do for myself.

Related to the discussion that Daphnis triggered by opening up about the 'imposter' self-image, those people in our lives wind up making us feel inadequate (even if that isn't their intent) even just by "demanding" explanations of what's "wrong" with us, etc. And i just don't have the strength to deal with that now. Fortunately, although my two closest friends in the world, like soulmates, are far away and phone calls are all we have, i do have about six friends in town who i can be with comfortably, who i quite readily told about my decision to start a-d's and with whom i don't have to ever "account" for myself. Most other people i don't even talk to now and that included having to choose in June not to go to a college reunion, with some of those friends alarmed and urging me to go but, my gosh, the idea of all that small talk and having to answer "So what are you doing now?" was just not even fathomable. I feigned having the flu (which was kind of true given the kind of side effects of Effexor i was having at the time) and they sort of accepted it, although they know I'd lost my mom and i know they were "suspicious" and concerned i think about me, but i just couldn't deal with any of that stuff.

Imo, when you're depressed, small talk is THE worst. I avoid it like the plague.

well, my goodness, i thought i was just going to say "I relate" :)) and here i've babbled on ...

I guess you got the picture :)

good wishes to y'all,


Re: Zinya

Posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 10:35:09

In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14's a small world isn't it. I've been keeping my eye out for her other book "Stuggle for Intimacy".
I agree that we shouldn't blame our parents but I still have a lot of anger towards both of them. Through therapy I did learn that It's not my responsibilty to bond with my parents, it was their responsibility to bond with me when I was a child. It use to be very stressful for me to go visit my mother. Through therapy I learnt that I should only visit when I wanted to and not because I felt I had to. Made a big difference for me.

Work is very stressful due to being short staffed in my department. If it weren't for effexor I'd probably be having a nice anxiety attack right about now. Speaking of work..I'd better get back to it.

Have a great day everyone..I'll be back on line later on this afternoon...Willie


Re: personal thoughts, Cher and zinya

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 10:44:21

In reply to Re: personal thoughts CherC68, posted by zinya on July 23, 2003, at 17:55:30

Zinya (and Cher),
I'm in complete agreement thinking that poor Cher has too much piled on her plate to deal with. Drugs aren't the fix-all in life. If a person is on AD's and a spouse cheats, it's still gonna hurt! I wish we were all "real life" friends instead of cyber-friends. Then we could all march over to Cher's house to pitch in and help.
KDi in Texas

> hi Cher,
> please -- and to mercedes too -- i wasn't meaning for anybody to feel they 'should' have responded to that music post ... It just started being relevant to so many people talking about music but i wasn't sure if people already had read my thoughts on the topic.
> Heaven knows, i get lost in the posts here and sometimes miss some posts i onlyrealize later i didn't even see ... I'd swear sometimes in fact, that they weren't even there previously, as if they "snuck in" belatedly into my list :))
> hmmmm
> Well, Cher, what i was referring to is a sense i've been getting increasingly lately from your posts of the avalanche of things you're dealing with and i debated mentioning here (in part so anyone else, like mercedes for example, who disagrees with my interpretation could chime in -- as well as obviously you yourself) and i feel a bit funny giving an unsolicited "diagnosis" cuz also, heaven knows, i'm no diagnostician... But several recent posts of yours have increasingly led me to think that with what you are dealing with in your life just even in terms of your hands, but then with so much else, of managing your whole house amid floods and storms and so many other things you've gradually shared bit by bit plus just even the "usual" wifely and motherly and employee stresses that come with the territory, you've had an avalanche of things beyond the norm... And it has made me think that maybe what you're dealing with is "normal depression/anxiety/stress" rather than a "clinical" one which is due to biochemical imbalance that requires or would benefit from these a-d's. It made me begin to think that maybe your inner instinct that made you quit the Effexor was a totally right instinct, and with others having not worked either, maybe it's telling you that your biochemistry doesn't need an a-d. Maybe the problem is that you've been totally overloaded with too much-- starting with, most basically, the pains of your hands which would make anyone in pain, which always makes a person constantly irritated and zapping your strength etc etc...
> For years, I kept coming back to a sense that maybe for me too it wasn't really a biochemical thing each time i tried one and had a bad reaaction and quit -- and i could still wind up coming to that conclusion with Effexor too, but so far it's been something i could stick with longer and give it a "real try" and maybe it's telling me that there is some biochemical thing it's "fixing."
> Now, heaven knows, i'm in no position to be doing this long-distance "analysis" of what you're dealing with. But the more i would hear you describe BOTH all the ENORMOUS hassles (which is an understatement) that you've been coping with AND on the other hand how i hear signs that say to me you are still able to do things (as odd as it sounds) like laugh hysterically or vibrate with music and talk with such delight about your cousin's band ... Things that -- and maybe here it's just me whose experience is too unrepresentative -- but i feel like if mine is "clinical depression" as I finally decided maybe it is, i can't even imagine (even yet) having the energy to laugh hysterically -- which I wish i could do again (but, please understand, i'm not minimizing how crazed you were feeling then)... Maybe that's a bad basis for seeing a contrast, which is why i'm giving an example for you to see what it is i'm basing this on, but even in your "breakdown" on Monday, you struck me as having the kind of breakdown that any sane person SHOULD have had in that situation. You "deserved" to have a "breakdown" in the midst of all that - and as you described how you started laughing on the phone with your husband about it ... I don't know, maybe i'm totally wrong, but it just didn't sound like what i'm coming to think this "clinical depression" thing is.
> Unfortunately, i think most doctors prescribe way too readily without really plumbing the depths to figure out what kind of depression we are feeling when we say we're depressed. Cuz more than ever, i feel like i'm realizing there's "depressed" and then there's "depressed" -- and i don't want to make one with a capital "D" more than the other cuz each one is surely just as daunting as the other, but i think one of them can benefit from drug therapy cuz there's a biochemical component and the other one can't. And at least one of these "other" kinds of depression would seem to be from an accumulation of life circumstances that leads to depression and anxiety.
> I feel like i'm babbling and you might totally disagree with me - I hope only that i'm making clear what i mean to say, which i'm not at all sure about. Does this make sense to you? If it does, it would make sense of your stopping the a-d's and maybe mean that if you see a pdoc, you might want to pose this question first of whether an a-d is even appropriate for you rather than just assuming one is and trying to find a different one that would work. Maybe with xanax or whatever, the reason you like it is because it's the one thing your body's biochemistry is missing and so maybe that's enough to help and then hopefully if your hands can find relief and all this avalanche of crises can abate... Or do you sense that there's a whole other kind of depression that i'm forgetting about in your situation that does feel like something biochemical to you?
> Well, now i *really* feel like i'm babbling, so i'm gonna quit and hope i haven't said anything that comes across as 'invasive' or presumptuousness but if i have and you want to tell me to "mind my own business" i'll understand, though of course i hope not :)) And, again, of course, it does feel presumptuous of me that i'm saying any of this cuz i don't even know myself whether what i have is "clinical depression" or what it looks or feels like, not to mention that there must be a lot of variation across people ...
> anyway, these were thoughts that had started to occur to me, and it seemed like if i just kept them to myself that -- even if you disagree with my interpretation -- maybe it would be helpful to you to hear it and know whether it sounds reasonable to you or not... That is, if i've even been clear :)
> okay, enough!!
> love and hugs,
> zinya


Re: regarding the word 'should' !! willie

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 11:14:07

In reply to Re: Zinya, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 10:35:09

hi again Willie,

Your words made me think of one of my 'mantras' of sorts -- and what a wonderful "sign" it was to me to discover that my bereavement counselor had the same mantra, and she now helps me hear it in myself too - and it's one of her golden rules for the bereavement groups that meet twice a month here: Namely, to view the word "should" as a giant red flag.

All the "shoulds" in our lives that we grew up with and keep perpetuating in ourselves ... Actually one of the college-era friends in town here who i have just had to stop seeing ... If you looked up the word "should" in the dictionary, her picture would be there as an illustration!! She's a walking "should"-er, and as much as she resents the same thing in her own sister, she does it too (both telling herself things she should do, which she then resents having done afterwards, as well as telling me and everyone else what i or they should do, notably -- alas -- her very depressed adult daughter) and it triggers the voice in me I'm already trying to UNdo. She's constantly -- well, when i was still talking with her regularly - we just e-mail for now and when she asks how i am, I've learned to ignore the question and answer a different question of hers instead, like about news or movies or something ... cuz if i even open the door to giving a remotely honest answer as to how i am, she's saying i should do this and i should do that ...

(Maybe, to clarify, i should :)) borrow a phrase that John Bradshaw uses to differentiate two types of 'shame' as well -- the kind of 'should' i'm talking about is the "toxic should" (like what he calls 'toxic shame' -- There's a healthy and necessary kind of should (or shame) which serves an important function of telling us we should, for example, tell the truth, not cheat, not kill or steal, etc. etc. ... and should follow the golden rule etc. But this is a different kind of 'should' that creeps in under the guise of being just as vital as these legitimate 'shoulds' but they are toxic cuz they really are about someone else's 'agenda' or 'formula' for us -- or society's at large. And then 'shame' us for not living up to these expectations and judgments which really are very arbitrary. And daily life is flooded with them.)

"Should" is like a laser highway into our inner anxiety straight from that octopus of a thing called Society. (sorry bout the multi-mixed metaphor) And it is fairly lethal. "Should" is ultimately suffocating. It takes the oxygen out of our own sense of who we are, what even our own instincts are - it shouts down listening to our own bodies for "advice" on what we are in the mood for. And sets us up for then resentment and/or self-doubt, frustration, and even depression. Over the years (about ten years or so of being attuned to the destructive power and symbolism of this word) I've developed a kind of radar to hear the word for what it is, which is the first step in then raising one's armor to ward it off and not start feeling guilty or inadequate or failed or whatever...

anyway, my added 2c for the moment :) Sorry if it started to sound like a soapbox or diatribe ! :)) I know i sometimes get off on a long monologue here ... I hope everyone realizes i'm not trying to preach, just sharing a view which i'd love to hear other thoughts about, including contrary views...

wishing you minimal stress today!


Re: xanax catachrest

Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 11:47:26

In reply to Re: No imposters here CherC68, posted by catachrest on July 24, 2003, at 8:51:17

Dear Susan,

No problem with giving your opinion. I do understand what you mean about taking someone else's prescription, however most doctors in my area do not prescribe Xanax. I have tried the Zoloft and the Effexor and the SE's were way too horrible for me and I so wish that I was able to take them.

I still have 20 left, meaning I've taken 10 .25 mgs in the last few weeks. I haven't taken a Xanax in a few days. I only take them when the panic attacks are at their worse and until I get into see a PDoc/Therapist it is my own safety net it seems.

I am horrible about taking medications of any kind (not that I cannot swallow them) It's just I hate the fact that I cannot make myself better without needing to rely on something to get me through the day or life.

Susy gave me an article regarding Xanax and when I do find a PDoc I will come armed with that information and hopefully the doctor will see that I'm not a Xanax junky its just the one thing that seems to help when I'm at the end of my rope.

I too like everyone else on here have no self confidence and go through life thinking I'm not good enough to get help or not worth it and most of the time am to afraid to ask for what I want.

I had tried to talk to my internist regarding giving me a prescription for xanax and he looked at me like hmmm maybe we have a junky on our hands - its probably my imagination, but most of the time I always think that everyone that looks at me or talks to me sees something worthless.

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject and I myself would probably tell another the same thing. But, I'm being careful and only using the Xanax during a panic attack and not as a preventative.

Thanks again for your concern.


Re: Oh you guys.... KimberlyDi

Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:10:09

In reply to Re: personal thoughts, Cher and zinya, posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 10:44:21

Yikes, Thank you all so much. I'm doing fine right now, the mess is cleaned up, my husband and son are home, my basement stinks, but no biggie. Someone is coming today to fix the pump on the pool.

You guys are all so wonderful and yeah it would be so cool if we had our own Babble community within driving distance!

I'm doing fine right now because I have to be.

My mother informed me yesterday that my father is going in for a biopsy. She wanted to wait until the mess at my house was taken care of before she let me know. His numbers came back high and he has a hard lump (prostate).

I cried for about a minute.

I had a hysterical maniacal laughter for about 1-1/2 hours and then cried for hours when I flooded and my pump on the new pool broke and I broke a glass, but cried for about one minute because there is a chance my father might have prostate cancer.

I love my father so much, so why am I becoming cold again? My father came over yesterday and fixed the sump pump. I watched him in awe and with so much love. I asked him why nobody told me - he said he wanted to wait and see what's going on. My father didn't look me in the eye the entire time at my house. I asked if he was okay - he said yes, I just hope its not Cancer. I said me too. He left and I cried for about a minute and thought I was going to absolutely die if I thought about it another second. Didn't take a Xanax.

Not going to take a xanax either. Am I really this cold or am I avoiding thinking about it. I honestly think I am freak, but I'm okay and I'm doing fine.



Re: personal thoughts zinya

Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13

In reply to Re: personal thoughts CherC68, posted by zinya on July 23, 2003, at 17:55:30

Dearest Zinya,

I would never in a million years tell you to mind your own business. You have been one of my greatest sources of help during this time and I honestly have a great deal of affection and respect for you. You make me want to be better.

You may be right about the depression part of my problem - the daily stressors are becoming more and more hard for me to bear.

I do have a chemical imbalance however. I have an abnormal amount of adrenalin in my body. The fight or flight syndrome or whatever. Have you ever been so mad or in a fist fight with someone and get hit and cannot feel the pain? I have been in several fist fights growing up and unfortunately later in life too. When you are in a total fight with someone - the pain usually doesn't register when you get hit -- it sure comes later, but at the time of the fight - the pressure and the adrenalin kick in. The strength I have is extremely scary sometimes. I have actually beat up men that were over 6 feet tall - and I'm 5'3". I have that feeling over breaking a glass, spilling milk, or looking at myself in the mirror or just waking up sometimes.

I had panic attacks since I was 4 years old. I was in bed and Johnny Carson was on and it was Christmas. My parents were in the living room - and as I layed there - everything got louder - extremely loud and faster - my thoughts - at the time I thought I could feel my blood going through my veins. I tried to explain to my parents that it felt like there was a man inside my body chasing me. That was my explanation. I still remember it like yesterday.

I was diagnosed several years ago through a free program with Borderline Personality Disturbance and possible Manic Depression. I see the Borderline -- inside me I know I'm crazy, not depressed so much as nuts. Being nuts makes me depressed, knowing that I've lived 40 years mostly unhappy makes me depressed. Sometimes I am depressed for no obvious reason, which is the reason I went to the doctor in the first place, but since I had nothing really to be depressed about I mostly talked about my panic attacks. I sometimes have 3-4 a day. It's like a big 900 pound man sitting on my chest. I have bruises on my chest sometimes from where I clench my fist and rub.

I know I am obsessive compulsive about cleaning my house and brushing my teeth - I brush between 4 - 10 times a day, I think being obsessive keeps me going when truly all I want to do is sleep and never wake up. Which again is crazy.

I think the borderline is what keeps me from sticking with anything jobs, I like to change them, men - lol we'll discuss that another time - but I have Craig now and forever - and the fact I don't go to doctors, I don't like medicine of any kind and am even rationing the Xanax like its gold for when the panic attack is at its worse. Funny though, even when I cannot breath and my chest hurts so bad, I won't take a Xanax knowing that it will help me because maybe I deserve the pain? Don't know and at this time, not really caring too much, because I am sort of sick and tired of analyzing myself. I'm screwed up period, because I think I'm screwed up. This is life, its not a bad life I have - just bad things happen and I'm not a strong enough person to deal.

There are people that are abused, there are people that have "Real" problems, homeless, beaten, poor, really unhealthy and I don't have real problems except that I can't deal with things well. It's my defect.

I think that if I would stop thinking that I am depressed it will go away, if I stop thinking I have pain in my hands and my feet that would go away, if I stop thinking I had chest pains they would go away, and my brain is messed up a bit so I can't stop thinking about it.

So - for all you out there - am I Borderline or what? LOL! See I can laugh and cry in seconds - maybe I am manic - who knows.

Zinya, your thoughts are always welcome and I know you know that so that makes me feel better. I wouldn't want you thinking that what you say is not wanted by me or heard.


p.s. there are so manay posts on here, my head is rattling to remember things I want to say - very fuzzy head thoughts today.


Re: personal thoughts - BPD CherC68

Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 13:07:51

In reply to Re: personal thoughts zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13

Actually pulled out the stuff I received a few years ago regarding BPD the following is an excerpt from one of the pamphlets...

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) individual's almost always appear to be in a state of crisis. Mood swings are common. These individuals can be argumentative at one moment and depressed at the next and then complain of having no feeling at all, at another time/
Wow - that hurts - its me.



Re: personal thoughts

Posted by Susy on July 24, 2003, at 13:46:54

In reply to Re: personal thoughts zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13

Good morning my new cyber friends, Zinya, Mercedes, Kid-O, Kim, Theo, Willie, and specially dear Cher:
This morning when I came back to drop off my son at his work, I found out myself thinking about all of you guys! That is very good, most of the times I came back thinking about my fears and frustrations and praying to feel better this day.
I came thinking about a lot of things I want to share with you, talking about imposters, at list in the babble I don't feel an imposter, I can talk about everything I feel and think, and I know that you guys understand me perfectly. Most of the times even with my family I am trying not to make mistakes, specially in the city where I live it looks to me like everybody is always watching just waiting to see if they detect a mistake. So, thanks a lot for giving me this freedom I feel whenever I write to you girls =).
It is good that we have shared all our problems related with our anxiety, depression and panic attacks, I know, is not easy to deal with them everyday, specially for me and Cher since we can't take anti depressants as the rest of you are. So I feel that some of you are doing great, some of you are still going to work and taking your medicines, that sounds too good for me, I don't have health insurance,I don'have a pdoc,I can't work right now, either take AD's =(.
Anyways, I was thinking that we can also give our ideas of how to deal with our symptoms to try to feel better. As far as my own experiences, what I have read, and heard, (and that doesn't mean that I practice all of them, or always feel in the mood to make them)I have find that there are some good ways,
1.- Music, in any way,listening, dancing, to dance helps a lot to liberate the tension in the body and to sing helps a lot to take all the tension acumulated in the chest, so why not sing? Even if we don't do it very well.
2.- Walk, I can't run, because I start feeling short of breath of with my heart pounding very fast, but walk, it does really good, walking fast, better. Also, very good, swimm, slowly of course.
3.-Eat well. Sleep well.
4.-And the most important thing of all, I am trying to practice this every day, change our thoughts, try to control our own minds, meaning, whenever I am feeling a panic attack instead of thinking I am going to die, or I am about to faint, I think repeatdly, this is going to past, it wont last long. I'll be ok. soon.
And that goes for everything else, sometimes I do want to stay here and lay in the couch, reading, sleeping, doing anything, and suddenly one of my kids come asking me to do something or take him/her somewhere, instead of burst yelling to them that I need to rest, I try to put a smile in my face and tell myself, why not? I can make it, maybe it would be better to do something different. Obviously, this doesn't mean that is it easy, of course not, but it is good at least to try.
If you guys have another good ideas, please let me know, I will fight until the end, one day I have to stop taking Xanex, and I have to learn how to control this damn anxiety I always have so I can go back to work, and little by little find inside me the courage I used to have before.
By the way, I am not blonde anymore. I colored my hair brown yesterday, just to see a new face in the mirror.
Love, Susy


Re: personal thoughts Susy

Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 14:23:35

In reply to Re: personal thoughts, posted by Susy on July 24, 2003, at 13:46:54


You are truly the sweet one. I think your post is quite uplifting. You sound so much more positive - in light of the depression and anxiety, you are fighting it the and your list you devised to help yourself is wonderful.

Music, Dancing, Walking, sleeping and eating and even forcing yourself to go ahead and keep on moving and keep on living is a wonderful idea.

It's hard but, I think you are making a lot of progress from when you first started posting. I guess recognizing the problem is a good step. You seem to have a lot more confidence now.

I have been trying to use swimming as something that is positive but...still waiting for it to get fixed...but I at least know it will be fixed and that is positive too.

One step at a time Susy, that's all we can do and I am so happy to see the positivity in your posting.

I hope to hear more from you soon.

Hugs & Love,


Re: Oh you guys.... CherC68

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 14:31:50

In reply to Re: Oh you guys.... KimberlyDi, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:10:09

Just one comment for now, Cher (!?!? am i *capable* of "just one comment"???? hmm, we'll see):

I hear your last statement here and your concern about not crying more about your Dad as being that voice of "should" that i just wrote about, letting yourself critique or question or punish or shame yourself for in this case *not* reacting the way you think you *should*.

The ways and means of our emotions are not "should-able" i think... I too have had times when i would think i "should" be crying and wasn't ... and then suddenly, 3 weeks later one day, i'd look at the kitchen counter in a funny angle, think of the person in question and collapse on the floor in sobs, totally 'out of left field' it seemed. (Kind of reminds me of the shower scene in The Big Chill when what's-her-name belatedly collapses in sobs over their friend's suicide.)

I do think your 'analysis' is probably right - that part of you is protecting yourself now, not wanting to believe it could be true (which at this point is wise, why be pessimistic?) ... Plus your emotions have already been through the wringer this week and you could be 'sobbed out'. But mostly i think it's helpful, if possible, not to do a number on yourself thinking you 'should' be reacting any differently than you are.

Think of how silly it is the way people misjudge others: Ever hear someone point to a person smiling and say "See? He's happy?" when a smile is often a sign of nervous anxiety that is just the opposite of what it looks. Emotions manifest in every situation for every person uniquely and we (as a society) do ourselves NO favor when we think any one sign of emotion should be 'code' for any one feeling. You can cry when you're happy and smile when you're sad. There's no formula.

(okay, sorry, soapbox over)


sending you huge hugs and feeling between the lines a certain 'solidness' in your 'voice' today that makes me happy to hear, if i'm not mistaken. And having your men back is surely such comfort and part of it...

Keep us informed about your dad. I will keep my fingers crossed. When will he get the biopsy? I've had to have breast biopsies twice - aaargh. No fun. I hope his kind isn't as painful - they probably give him anesthesia right?

hugs and love,


Re: Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problem

Posted by catachrest on July 24, 2003, at 14:46:56

In reply to Re: Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problem, posted by countess on July 23, 2003, at 18:24:09

Thanks everyone, for your welcome and advice! I got a great sleep last night. I don't know what did it, because I haven't changed the timing of my dose or taken anything else. But, though I woke up once or twice, I slept deeply and had the weirdest dreams. And today I feel energetic and productive! Yay! First time in soooooooo long for that. I don't think I'll switch the timing of my dose yet; maybe all I need to do is let the fatigue pass and avoid caffeine after 3:00. :D


> hi-i took my med at night when i started and had the same trouble as you with insomnia and then tiredness during the day. i switched to a.m. and still had insomnia. i am back to taking my med at night to see if it is better and i feel i sleep better when i take it at night but during the day i am very drowsy. i am at 75 xr now. i took 37.5 for two weeks and then 75 for almost 6 weeks. i think i actually prefer taking it at night. i take it for anxiety and feel better this way. i know each person is different. i also agree that you should try the timing while you are at a lower dose. i switched back to nighttime last weekend and my muscles were very tired and weak and i didn't get anything done while waiting to take the p.m dose (i skipped the a.m.) take care and good luck!
> Thanks Zinya,
> >
> > I think I will try that. I've been taking it with supper - which is often later in the evening due to my decreased appetite lately - and maybe I would benefit from taking it in the morning, or even at lunch. My doctor didn't recommend a time of day, only that I should eat something with it, which is why I chose suppertime.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > > hi Susan,
> > >
> > > welcome! I was a newcomer not so long ago myself...
> > >
> > > What time of day are you taking your Effexor? (It's the XR time-release, right?)
> > >
> > > It could be that you might benefit from changing from night to morning or morning to night ... I take mine at night after dinner (initially out of concern for nausea which did me in with other a-d's i've tried) to be on fullest stomach of the day and so far i haven't had trouble sleeping although i do find myself having a third coffee many days even though i usually tried to keep myself to one or two. But otherwise, i've been fine with taking it night.
> > >
> > > However, as you've surely read, others here had to do the opposite and switch to mornings ... If you have enough 37.5s you might try making the switch before you move up to 75 so there's less of an adjustment to your body as you gradually shift time of day.
> > >
> > > ???
> > >
> > > just my 2c,
> > >
> > > zinya
> >
> >


Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes

Posted by theo on July 24, 2003, at 14:57:46

In reply to Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes, posted by willie on July 23, 2003, at 19:02:36

Feeling good, day 2 on 75mg Effexor XR. Much smoother for me than 37.5mg! I guess the up to 75mg stays in my system longer therefore not as many ups and downs.


Re: personal thoughts CherC68

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 15:15:47

In reply to Re: personal thoughts zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13

and dearest Cher!

well, obviously i had no idea what i was talking about :))!! but i'm so glad you don't mind my gratuitous 20c worth :)

How totally intriguing to me your 4-yr-old memory is. And that you link it so specifically with watching Johnny Carson, and the sense of where your parents were etc. For what you say about therapy/analysis, i imagine you've explored that rather fully already, but i find it so intriguing as to what might have triggered that feeling at the time. Do you have siblings? Were you the oldest child? (I forget if you already mentioned but i sense you have talked about siblings.)

My curious mind reads your post and has a zillion questions come to mind but i don't want to overload or be intrusive. Just an example, curious as to how long the teeth-brushing that you say is OCD has happened? Is it just since you stopped seeing a dentist and therefore had a reason to 'overcompensate' perhaps? Or did you have this habit since "forever"? something you do when you're anxious? or bored? or no correlation? Those kinds of questions -- which you don't have to answer :)) but that's the kind of thing i mean.

Is it the hyper-adrenalin thing that led your md. to suggest Effexor? I'm still confused frankly about how these things work but it's starting to seem like they regulate rather than compensate. (I'm getting this impression from also learning recently that Effexor is used for bipolar as well as depression. As you know, I'm on it hoping that my adrenal system, which is totally depleted and it's like i'm high and dry with none left - after years of mostly having been go-go-go. Now nada. Yet even now i realize that it's more a question of regulation than just compensation, i think. I occasionally have something 'fire me up' (although it's been a while) and then i can find myself being impulsive, but then i just collapse back into nada. It's what i've been hoping this Eff might finally deal with. But it sounds like we're coming at this from mostly opposite ends of the spectrum as regards adrenalin.

As to BPD, i appreciate your explanation - i don't know very much about it. It reminds me most recently of an episode of the Sopranos last fall ... and it introduced info about BPD although surely in a very summary way. Is there a belief that BPD is linked to something specific in our biochemistry the way depression is deemed now to be linked (for many) to serotonin levels?

The business though of telling yourself "maybe you deserve the pain" - is that in itself a BPD thing? or is that a broader inadequacy issue like we've been talking about here the last couple of days?

I hear you when you say "you're sick and tired of analyzing" so please don't feel a need to answer anything i've asked here. I'm letting you know what i thought about (well some of what i thought about :) in reading your post, and that i care about you and am sending you deep-breathing peaceful hugs,



Re: KDI, didn't know you felt this way KimberlyDi

Posted by mercedes on July 24, 2003, at 16:26:06

In reply to Daph-Effexor - what do u mean by imposter?, posted by KimberlyDi on July 23, 2003, at 17:00:51

hey, KDI in Texas,
I read your post yesterday to Daph and wanted to respond but it was past midnight and I was pretty much brain dead to find the right words or for that matter, any words. Your comment made me feel like reaching out to you right then and there.

I hadn't realized that you felt this way about yourself. That someday everybody is going to see how worthless you really are, and not like you anymore? Who is everybody? Do you mean your coworker's, family, or freinds ? What brought this on? Can you pinpoint when you started feeling like this? Did your mom or dad always tell you how you shoud look, feel etc?

I know I'm asking alot of questions, and maybe you have posted on this before, but my memory hasn't been so good lately with the attacks I get. Me personnaly, cannot relate to an eating disorder like anorexia as I have had a weight problem since I was around 8 yrs old. I do remember thinking that my life was not worth living a few times throughout my life, to the point of wanting to end it and I'm glad I didn't.

And, as I've mentioned before, being like a robot for many years (I was going to use the word "feeling" like a robot but at that time I had no, -0-, zip, feelings).

You have been a tremendous support here at this site. Your postings are "worth" something and so are YOU.

Hoping to hear more from you,
(posted by KDI)
Daph, if you feel like a failure or an imposter, realize that it's your inner negative voice trying to break you down again. I know the "imposter" feeling. I was sent to an "eating disorders" group therapy session. I saw all those pencil thin girls and almost cried, thinking I was a failure at even having an eating disorder. I wasn't overweight, by all means. But my inner voice always tells me that I am, and I have an unhealty envy of those girls who have the total willpower to starve themselves. I personally am glad you are here, regardless of your Effexor dosage.
KDi in Texas

P.S. I always feel like I'm barely "faking" it through life. That someday everybody is going to see how worthless I really am, and not like me anymore. It's hard to fight those feelings.


Re: Oh you guys.... CherC68

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 16:42:13

In reply to Re: Oh you guys.... KimberlyDi, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:10:09

I don't think you are cold or avoiding anything. Sure you can laugh hysterically or sob for hours when you are frustrated and overwhelmed at *things* in your life. Dad aint a *thing*. I think something in your mind is taking care of you right now. You don't need to imagine the worst case scenerio and feel that kind of pain on something that might happen. Dad will be proud of you for not losing it. You are going to be OK. My prayers will be with you both.
Take care,
KDi in Texas

> Yikes, Thank you all so much. I'm doing fine right now, the mess is cleaned up, my husband and son are home, my basement stinks, but no biggie. Someone is coming today to fix the pump on the pool.
> You guys are all so wonderful and yeah it would be so cool if we had our own Babble community within driving distance!
> I'm doing fine right now because I have to be.
> My mother informed me yesterday that my father is going in for a biopsy. She wanted to wait until the mess at my house was taken care of before she let me know. His numbers came back high and he has a hard lump (prostate).
> I cried for about a minute.
> I had a hysterical maniacal laughter for about 1-1/2 hours and then cried for hours when I flooded and my pump on the new pool broke and I broke a glass, but cried for about one minute because there is a chance my father might have prostate cancer.
> I love my father so much, so why am I becoming cold again? My father came over yesterday and fixed the sump pump. I watched him in awe and with so much love. I asked him why nobody told me - he said he wanted to wait and see what's going on. My father didn't look me in the eye the entire time at my house. I asked if he was okay - he said yes, I just hope its not Cancer. I said me too. He left and I cried for about a minute and thought I was going to absolutely die if I thought about it another second. Didn't take a Xanax.
> Not going to take a xanax either. Am I really this cold or am I avoiding thinking about it. I honestly think I am freak, but I'm okay and I'm doing fine.
> Hugs,
> Cher


Re: Oh you guys....

Posted by tray on July 24, 2003, at 16:57:35

In reply to Re: Oh you guys.... CherC68, posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 14:31:50

Hey everyone I'm new to this forum but not to
the effects of depression. I have been on paxil for 1 year and it did help me at first but them
i got worse. I just started efexor xr 150 mg
6 days ago and today has been a good day. i never knew there was such a dark place and i would be willing to try anything to help. due to a major crisis in my life a little over a year ago I became majorly depressed and lost a lot of weight which has caused my ovaries to fail and the doctors have told me that i am post memapausal at the age of 32. i now have to deal with menapause along with trying to conquer this depression so i can take care of my family. i am obviously in no shape to give advise but I wonder if any of you know Jesus Christ? If I did not have my father in heaven on my side i know i would not be here today. i just want you all to know i will pray for you and if you know Christ i would like to ask you to pray for me. I may not be well yet but i know my day is coming because i have FAITH that it will. Keep your faith too!!


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