Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 13781

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Re: Daph-Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? KimberlyDi

Posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 23:41:40

In reply to Daph-Effexor - what do u mean by imposter?, posted by KimberlyDi on July 23, 2003, at 17:00:51

Yeah. I feel like everyone can already see that I am worthless! Not like someday, but NOW! It's terrible self-doubt. I doubt everything I do. Always think I should be doing something ELSE!


Re: No imposters here Susy

Posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 23:48:13

In reply to Re: No imposters here, posted by Susy on July 23, 2003, at 18:03:44

Yeah. there's a helpful expression I try to remember: I'm comparing everyone else's outsides with my insides.


Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter?

Posted by Yankeegirl on July 24, 2003, at 0:34:25

In reply to Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? mercedes, posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 23:05:40

> well, I'm way behind because I went to work and just got back, but will read through and see what lies ahead as well. but I'll answer this...
> I have never felt like I belonged anywhere. I guess it's just the feeling I learned in my family. No one talked about anything real. and I was lonely at school. I was sort of anti-social. I think cause I didn't know how. funny, as now most of my life is people oriented. I did well and went to a good college but always wondered why they had accepted ME? Felt pretty lost all my life. Started getting help after college. A few pdocs. First one fell asleep, which didn't help the old lack of confidence. Had one I loved, for a year or so. He helped a lot. Married a wounded man and had two girls, now 21 and 18. Divorced in 93. He re-married, a woman half his age, just like my own dad did.
> I went to grad school at 43 or so, and loved it, but I always felt I was doing things for wrong reasons. Taught freshman comp and world lit and British lit one year, and really felt like an imposter then!!! But I was just green, I guess...
> Had trouble finding work after the fellowship, living in a very small town. Made bagels in a cafe starting at $4.25 an hour! I was overeducated and underskilled. Didn't belong at the university, didn't belong at the cafe, though it was actually basically a good interlude, despite the divorce happening then. I was learning that I could, indeed, take care of myself, even in difficult circumstances. I also realized I needed spiritual help, somewhere around 43, and joined a church, where I REALLY felt like an imposter, as I was an atheist for 30 years and have serious issues with any set of religious "laws". Maybe now, at 55, I am getting some realization that everyone muddles along, even if they act like they have it together, and I may feel like I deserve a place in the human race afterall. Not really there yet, I guess... It is really just serious feelings of inadequacy. Helpless and hopeless. that's the role I immediately revert to around my family. and it feels so familiar and so awful at the same time! OK. that's my attempt to describe feeling an imposter or always an outsider. I need a lot of solitude and isolate a lot, too. I think it's protective. I just take things too hard. Oh, one more place I felt an took me YEARS in Al-anon to feel I really belonged there. I just kept saying: No one drank THAT one was violent, etc. I didn't think the alcohol part was right, but I just knew everything I heard was familiar and helpful. At some point I told a counselor I didn't know if my dad was an alcoholic or not, but he carried a small suitcase bar in the trunk of his car, and gallon bottles of gin, rum, bourbon, etc. she just started to I understand where the feelings come from, that doesn't make them easier to deal with. they still incapacitate me at times. I just despair, at times. Al-anon has given me some helpful tools to get out of it, if I can remember and make myself use them! phew! this site is like opening a window in a stuffy old house. It's great, but scary. Admitting vulnerability and needing help? Yipes.

Hi Daphnis,

There is SO MUCH in your post above that sounds familiar to me. We really do understand. I think we are all still trying to figure out what to do about it though! I was painfully shy as a little girl, and maybe being bullied by every male in my family kept me from getting over being shy. Even today, everything in my life has to be really good for me to be able to be social without overwhelming anxiety. If I receive any criticism, it just knocks me over for weeks. If I get actually rejected, well, that happened 2 years ago, and I basically went home, cried for 2 days, and pretty much just stayed home ever since. My pdoc (Psychiatrist) is going to talk with me about stuff from my childhood and how that affects me today, and also some cognitive tnerapy, which is something like keeping a journal to write down all those negative thoughts that automatically pop into our brain, and then actually stepping back to analyze if it is a rational thought, and gradually becoming more aware of the bad stuff we tell ourselves, and how to recognize it, and then stop it. I mention that because in your post above, there is a lot that sounds like automatic negative talk - "Why do they like ME" "my pdoc fell asleep so that means something is wrong with me" "everyone else has it together but I'm faking it"...

This is a wonderful, safe place. Even when sharing opinions that might not be welcome, people are careful to phrase it so that the other person isn't insulted, and they always respond with gratitude for the reply, even if they do disagree...

Good luck, and keep posting! Yankeegirl


Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? Yankeegirl

Posted by Daphnis on July 24, 2003, at 0:53:53

In reply to Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter?, posted by Yankeegirl on July 24, 2003, at 0:34:25

Hello. Oh man! I am so bad at taking criticism that I can hardly be effective at work after an evaluation or a routine run in with my (dumb and unhelpful) superior! I internalize every bad message cause it jives with my bad self-image. Then I can't shake it but am angry at the same time. very debilitating.
I have incredible negative self-talk. I have been aware of this for several years now, but it is a long journey from awareness to change! I am making slow (and I mean very slow) progress, I guess. this is an improvement over my former attitude that no one can ever change, really.
yeah, rational-emotive therapy. It is hard to make that child listen to that adult! But I keep trying. thanks for the encouragement!


Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? Daphnis

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 1:11:01

In reply to Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? mercedes, posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 23:05:40

Hi Daph,
hope you don't mind if i chime in here too... I had been prompted to ask you if you felt like talking about this more too, but i saw that Mercedes already had so i didn't want to bombard you but i am inspired to say a few things to your brave and honest post here.

In some ways, face to face communication is always best, but i think there's a special role for cybercommunication and, ironically, even more so with people we don't "know" in a group like this, which can liberate us to 'test the waters' of voicing things that sometimes we feel silly or awkward or embarrassed to tell even a close friend - sometimes just because like in that great quote you cited -- even our close friends and family - we can easily come to compare their "outsides" to our "insides" (i really liked that - thanks!)

We have some interesting things in common - we're the same age. And i too went back to grad school the lasted through my 40's practically. My dad too was alcoholic, and i too didn't really come to realize it til i was mid adulthood. He had quit drinking when i was 3, when mom gave him an ultimatum, but as you know, an alcoholic is always an alcoholic and there are certain key "personality traits" of alcoholism that persist, and they leave strong messages/imprints on kids.

I had divorced much younger than you did and don't have children (but some great god-children) so obviously there are differences too

But i can certainly relate to your sense of not fitting in, being different. I had some very distinctive differences about myself growing up that made my childhood esp. from age 6 on feel very much "on my own to figure out life" with a sense of being loved but not a lot of daily support for "who i really was" but instead feeling just enough of that need to please and a sense of expectations. I was outwardly fairly social but had an inner life that was completely at odds and one in which i felt absolutely like i didn't fit.

I think the biggest thing that has helped me -- and only since my divorce (after a marriage that exponentially worsened my sense of self, daily critiqued and belittled) -- has been to decide both that nobody really fits in (kind of like your quote) but also a sort of sense or motto almost that "weird is good" :)) ... But that doesn't always 'work' as a mental strategy by a long shot and certainly not while depressed and anxious.

It took a long time (including the last 15 years of periodic trials with anti-deps that never worked) to really finally think that maybe i have been dealing with depression for a long time, maybe since a car accident when i was 6 even that totally disrupted my life... And I increasingly think my dad was dealing with depression all his life too, never treated except by the false treatment of his alcoholic years... So maybe it's even genetic.

Who knows. But it took coming to a sort of rock bottom after i lost my mom this last year, and i sunk into quicksand that became eventually paralyzing and suffocating at times. So here i am.

Sometimes i babble on here ad nauseum, like now. Other times, i lapse out cuz i have zero energy even to write. But i am here and welcoming you sincerely and always open -- well i think i am, I try to be anyway -- to sharing such explorations of what it is that stymies us. Already i've found what an irreplaceable place this site is.

with warm good wishes, Daph,



Re: Name Daph is ok Daphnis

Posted by mercedes on July 24, 2003, at 1:12:33

In reply to Re: No imposters, Cher is right!! zinya, posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 23:36:11

Daph, I think we can all relate to being Goofy, Daffy, Grumpy, Sleepy, sometimes even Crazy on this site. You made me laugh which is good medicine. Welcome and thanks for being open. You'll find some real caring folks here.
Looking fwd to hearing more from you,
Mercedes (not Dodge or Ford, but Mercedes! :)
> Yes, Daph is better. Daphnis is the guy in the story. a blind, flute-playing shepherd! But I tried 'Chloe' and the name was already in use. Suppose I could use "Daffy"! but I try hard not to call myself crazy.


Re: No imposters, Cher is right!! Daphnis

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 1:23:19

In reply to Re: No imposters, Cher is right!! zinya, posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 23:36:11

aha! so that was your inspiration. Well, we could call you Ravel sometimes too :)) I have this immediate impression you'll make some beautiful music here :)

but Daph seems nice so that it is ... and now that you explained, i'll hear echoes of 'afternoon of a faun' when i open a post from you. That's pretty cool!

[and now, just as a tiny example, i'm thinking "oh dear am i mixing up composers and songs with the wrong symphonies?" - typical of my constant self-doubt - and almost went to look it up before saying something stupid but stopped myself and thought, "No, if there's any place i can just let myself be stupid, it should be here" :) so if i've mixed everything up, just laugh at me .. or with me. This feels therapeutic, not to go having to make sure i'm saying the right thing :)

so thanks :) ... and sweet dreams,



Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by indium on July 24, 2003, at 6:16:32

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by Bridget on July 11, 2003, at 13:50:55

anyone any thoughts on the difference between effexor XR and immediate release effexor? For me 375mg of XR is amazing. the only thing that's ever worked, but of course that's more than allowed to be prescribed. 375mg of original effexor only just takes the edge off. Anyone know why the prescribable doses are different or hwo to take the immediate release stuff so it has anything like the effect of the XR?


Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by indium on July 24, 2003, at 6:16:51

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by Bridget on July 11, 2003, at 13:50:55

anyone any thoughts on the difference between effexor XR and immediate release effexor? For me 375mg of XR is amazing. the only thing that's ever worked, but of course that's more than allowed to be prescribed. 375mg of original effexor only just takes the edge off. Anyone know why the prescribable doses are different or hwo to take the immediate release stuff so it has anything like the effect of the XR?


Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? zinya

Posted by Daphnis on July 24, 2003, at 7:35:51

In reply to Re: Effexor - what do u mean by imposter? Daphnis, posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 1:11:01

thanks for the welcome, zinya. I can't wait to respond to stuff you say, but have to go to work. (I have a funny schedule and work some days and some evenings.) I was eager to check in here this beautiful morning. Two cheerful things to start a day. Unusual. Waking up is ALWAYS one of my worst lows, chemically.


Re: No imposters, Cher is right!! zinya

Posted by Daphnis on July 24, 2003, at 7:40:58

In reply to Re: No imposters, Cher is right!! Daphnis, posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 1:23:19

That's funny (and reassuring) cause I had to go look up who Daphnis was last night! I just knew it was Daphnis and Chloe. Music is very important in my life, too, but more later.


Re: Daphnis and Zinya, everyone

Posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 7:51:18

In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14

Good morning ladies.

Daphnis...There is a book out on the market that I recommend you pick up or see if your local library has a copy. It is called Adult Children of Alcoholics Syndrome by Dr. Janet Woititz. Actually I stongly recommend this book to anyone whose had a parent who was/is an alcoholic. This book was mentioned to me by my therapist during my counselling. It's a wonderfull book and helped me discover that I was not crazy. It seems children of alcoholics develop certain characteristics as of a result of their childhood. You can see what you can find online about it but the book really helped me understand why I feel as I do. The guilt, fear of abandonment etc.

Zinya...I'm actually from Ontario..not too far from Toronto. My doctor just prescribed the 37.5 dosage of XR (I never realized that there was effexor and effexor xr). I just picked up my 3rd refill of 100 pills. He never mentioned to me about the different dosages and the only follow up we did was via email about a month after I began taking it and I recently emailed him again because of the bruising and weight gain.

He called me at home (he's the best doc..and he goes by Dr. Bob funny is that??) and we talked about the effexor. I told him I was still experiencing some OCD so he suggested I stay on the drug for a while longer. He did mention that If I come off too early that the axiety could become worse than before. He also explained that anxiety is a learned behaviour and even though we may reason that, our body/mind may not. I didn't get too into the conversation as I'll be going to see him sometime in Novemeber and I'll get the details then.

Anyway...gotta get to to you all later..Willie


Re: anyone had weight gain?

Posted by midgie1007 on July 24, 2003, at 8:04:43

In reply to Re: anyone had weight gain? midgie1007, posted by mercedes on July 23, 2003, at 15:04:14

See I could believe the 'lack of energy/motivation' on Paxil. I fell asleep everytime I sat down, but on prozac I was very energetic. I ran at least 20 miles a week and lifted weights. The pounds did not budge!

Of course, at the moment, I'm taking miniscule doses of effexor xr. The side effects of nausea, insomnia, general wooziness, jaw tension, etc have been pretty strong for me.


Hello everyone

Posted by Scooter1 on July 24, 2003, at 8:43:06

In reply to Re: anyone had weight gain?, posted by midgie1007 on July 24, 2003, at 8:04:43

Good morning everyone, hope you are all feeling well today. I myself had I would say a good day yesterday. I have been on 37.5 for 9 days now and finally most of the SE's are gone. I am still having problems sleeping at night. I take my dosage ar 12:00 in the afternoon. Today I go see a pdoc. This will be my first time ever, I wonder what he/she will say. I am very curious. Tomorrow I go see a psychotherapist that is through my job. I hope they both have some great insight to my anxiety. I have also been reading a book on overcoming anxiety, long term. I mentioned earlier that being away from my family is really quite bothersome for me. My husband was prior military and that is what took us away from our immediate family, because of job and finances we were unable to move back closer to home, which is down south. I am currently living in the D.C. area, to busy here for me, and all everyone thinks about is there job..... I am more along the thinking that family is more important. I really enjoy hearing the experiences of all of you, knowing that I am not alone in this world with issues, some worse than others, some not as bad. I hope you all have a great day, and I will post you on what the pdoc says. scooter1


Re: No imposters here CherC68

Posted by catachrest on July 24, 2003, at 8:51:17

In reply to Re: No imposters here Daphnis, posted by CherC68 on July 23, 2003, at 15:38:19

Hi Cher, I'm Susan.

I know I'm new here and don't really know you guys yet, but I have to say - please, don't self-medicate with a prescription that's not yours!!! Yikes! If you feel Xanax will be better than what you've taken in the past, please, see a doctor about it, or at least talk to a knowledgeable pharmacist first. Sharing medicines without a doctor's supervision is just not a good idea, especially medicines designed to mess with your head.


> Right now I have a prescription for Xanax (which is not mine a friend gave me hers!)


Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes willie

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:14:57

In reply to Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes, posted by willie on July 23, 2003, at 19:02:36

It was me who mentioned the "faking it" part. I wonder if it stems from my lack of assertiveness in demanding what I want out of life. Or it stems from my very strict mother who let me know at an early age that what I wanted wasn't important.

Anyways, dosages. I've found that regular doctors prescribe AD's with fewer follow-ups than pdoc's. Pdoc's have follow-ups bi-weekly or so until you reach a "therapudic(sp?) level".

KDi in Texas


Re: Effexor XR Daphnis

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:21:18

In reply to Effexor XR KimberlyDi, posted by Daphnis on July 23, 2003, at 22:29:09

Regular Effexor is absorbed into the body quicker than XR (which means Extended Release). This means that I have to take the Regular Effexor twice a day, instead of the 1-a-day XR. My insurance has a cheaper co-pay for the Regular Effexor than the XR Version. There may be other differences that I'm not aware of.
KDi in Texas

> Hey KDi, what IS the difference between Effexor and Effexor XR?? I looked it up on Google but only got info on effexor XR so thought I was mistaken and it must be all the same.


Re: Hi All... Thank you YankeeGirl! Yankeegirl

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:43:11

In reply to Re: Hi All..., posted by Yankeegirl on July 23, 2003, at 23:26:51

Thanks for the laugh this morning. The "I'm fixable" remark was so funny. I'm currently suffering from a relapse in depression. I had to half my dosages over the weekend to avoid running out. The full dosages haven't kicked in yet or I need to go to a higher dose. Your remark about even a phone call seeming overwhelming struck a chord. I have some bills to pay but I keep putting it off. I have the money in the bank. I'm just overwhelmed by the thought of finding the bill envelopes and writing out a check.

Oh, and THANK YOU! The upping the dosage remark I made, it made me wonder when my next appointment with the p-doc is. It's TODAY at 4:00!

KDi in Texas

> > Hi Cher, I totally understand how you don't have the energy to call a pdoc. That is the major clue for me that I am depressed, is that a simple phone call is too overwhelming to accomplish. (I used to get seasonal affective disorder, or winter blues, and that was my main reaction to it)
> I don't know why nobody on this site talks about what they learn in therapy. My understanding is that the Effexor is only part of a successful treatment, that some kind of therapy is necessary too, for most people. Well, I've been on Eff 4 weeks, but today was the first time I actually had a talk with my pdoc. What a revelation! We went over the results of my psychiatric personality testing (called Minnesota something or other, I'll find out the name next week) where I answered about 700 true-false questions. I was diagnosed with depression and avoidant personality disorder. When she read the description of that from the (DSM?) book, I kept saying, "That's me! That's me!" I am SO HAPPY and EXCITED tonight. My problem has a name! They know how to fix me! They assured me I am fixable! I am so excited!
> Cher, I urge you to make that one phone call for a pdoc. If you can't do it, maybe your son or husband will do it for you. I think that your mental health is more important right now than your carpal tunnel surgery. It's pretty scary for us to hear how deep in the depression you are right now, and I hope you can decide to put your needs first and foremost, for the first time maybe, and get the help you are needing. The hope I feel today is worth any amount of money. I am so excited about my pdoc helping me that I would do anything legal to pay for it - I'd even ask relatives for money. First I'd call all the ones who bullied me all my childhood - HA! "This is your fault - give me money!!!"
> Seriously, please call a psychiatist today!
> Sending caring prayers, Yankeegirl


Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? indium

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:54:13

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by indium on July 24, 2003, at 6:16:32

My Pdoc told me that Immediate Release (IR) Effexor isn't equivalent to Effexor XR. 375mg IR doesn't = 375mg XR in effectiveness. You would probably have to take more of the IR, broken into 4-6 hr dosages, all day to come close to the XR version.
That's just my 2 cents worth.
KDi in Texas

> anyone any thoughts on the difference between effexor XR and immediate release effexor? For me 375mg of XR is amazing. the only thing that's ever worked, but of course that's more than allowed to be prescribed. 375mg of original effexor only just takes the edge off. Anyone know why the prescribable doses are different or hwo to take the immediate release stuff so it has anything like the effect of the XR?


Re: Daphnis and Zinya, everyone willie

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 9:59:30

In reply to Re: Daphnis and Zinya, everyone, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 7:51:18

hi Willie (and Daphnis and all),

You've made me smile at the coincidence. I too highly recommend Woititz's book (and just to let you know, Dr. Bob likes us to use a system of this website where you put a book title inside double-double quotes and it automatically finds the book in amazon and links to the page in amazon, where people can read more about it and potentially buy it -- so I'll do it here "Adult Children of Alcoholics".)

I read it myself back in the late 80's as well as its sequel "Struggle for Intimacy" and found them invaluable. As it happens, I became a family communication professor and you'd be amazed how many college kids deal with an alcoholic parent and I too routinely found myself recommending this book to students who always found it very helpful. What's so particularly good about the book, imo, is its concrete focus on specific habits of mind and language that a child of an alcoholic (or of really any kind of addictive pattern -- any '-holism') assimilates growing up and become part of our sense of "normal" but are really quite dysfunctional patterns. I think it's an invaluable and very practical book for almost anyone actually. Those who study "dysfunctional family" patterns claim that over 90% of families could be called dysfunctional, something related to why I chose that field of work because I believe so strongly in just how fundamental early childhood socialization is in the lives of all of us ... and even to society as a whole.

So, we're very much on the same page, Willie! I think originally it must have been a therapist of mine who also first turned me on to Woititz as well as a couple of other authors but she stands out because her analysis is so concrete, so full of specific examples of how we carry on inside our minds the legacy of such worldviews. By the way, I always think it's important to add that for me at least, this is not at all about scapegoating or blaming parents. They themselves grew up under dysfunctional family patterns and, until someone begins to see what it is they have 'inherited' -- which is one of the blessings of our era, that such topics are now more "out of the closet" and that there are places like this website and more access to therapy, etc. -- our parents were stumbling in the dark and also had internalized lots of dysfunctional patterns from their parents. So, imo, it's important to read and undertake such reflections with empathy for one's parents as well, rather than a sense of blame or guilt, etc.

As to what you say about your dosage levels, gosh, Willie, November seems like a long time off. It is great that your md. will use e-mail, but given your uncertainty about things (granted, i realize you're wanting to see first if a change at work alters your current concerns) but i would certainly not wait that long to put your questions to him -- about whether he considers 37.5 to be the maximal dose for your situation. It sounds like he expects you to only be on it for a few months? Since every diagnosis is unique, none of us can know why he would choose a particular dosage max. or why, but I'd try if i were you to at least put those kinds of questions to him so you feel you at least know what his thinking is more clearly about why this level and what the goal is, plus letting him know your specific symptoms as they evolve.

hope you're having a good day!


Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problems? catachrest

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 10:01:56

In reply to Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problems?, posted by catachrest on July 23, 2003, at 14:50:41

Welcome to psycho-babble! Best way I know of to help with the sleeping is Benedryl (generic is fine). The drowsiness is another issue. I exist on coffee & dr.peppers.
Good Luck!
KDi in Texas

> Hi there,
> I'm pretty new to Effexor; started at 37.5 mg about 5 days ago. Overall I'm not minding it, and I haven't had a panic attack or really really low mood since I started. But I'm finding the drowsiness and the problems sleeping hard to deal with. From reading what others have put here it looks like this will most likely stop eventually as my body gets used to it, and I'm okay with that, but as it stands, I've been at work all day and haven't gotten anything done. I feel drowsy and absolutely uninterested and unmotivated in my work. For three nights I've had trouble getting to sleep, and I wake up often at night and don't seem to dream. Can anyone recommend to me a safe, non-medicinal way of dealing with these side effects for the meantime? I'm committed to getting better - can't handle the depression any more - but I also really need to be able to work.
> By the way, thanks for all the information and support I've gotten just from reading old posts. I'm pleasantly surprised at the general standard of articulateness in peoples' writing here - it makes me feel like you guys are intelligent, thinking people, and if you can be depressed and get help for it too, then no shame for me!
> Thanks,
> Susan


Re: phone calls and 'small talk' YankeeGirl! KimberlyDi

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 10:25:49

In reply to Re: Hi All... Thank you YankeeGirl! Yankeegirl, posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 9:43:11

hi KimDi and YankeeGirl,

Just to add here how much you indeed are not alone in finding even a phone call to be too much unless it's from one of my best friends who knows exactly what's going on with me now. I screen my phone calls cuz i just can't "afford" to be "ambushed" by a call from someone that would require energy to talk to (well, initially it was cuz i was completely fed up with about 10 telemarketers per day but it's also cuz some people i just can't talk to now for energy reasons alone -- anyone i would think i have to "explain myself" to -- The kinds of friends of lesser intimacy who do things like insist i have to go out more or other things -- and who don't realize that they are people who convey expectations for "how i should be" and so i'm avoiding them now -- as my bereavement counselor too has encouraged me to do. Of course ultimately, as she says, i need to be able to resist questions that seem geared to make me explain myself but for now at least, just knowing that those people are stressors for me and avoiding them is the healthiest thing i can do for myself.

Related to the discussion that Daphnis triggered by opening up about the 'imposter' self-image, those people in our lives wind up making us feel inadequate (even if that isn't their intent) even just by "demanding" explanations of what's "wrong" with us, etc. And i just don't have the strength to deal with that now. Fortunately, although my two closest friends in the world, like soulmates, are far away and phone calls are all we have, i do have about six friends in town who i can be with comfortably, who i quite readily told about my decision to start a-d's and with whom i don't have to ever "account" for myself. Most other people i don't even talk to now and that included having to choose in June not to go to a college reunion, with some of those friends alarmed and urging me to go but, my gosh, the idea of all that small talk and having to answer "So what are you doing now?" was just not even fathomable. I feigned having the flu (which was kind of true given the kind of side effects of Effexor i was having at the time) and they sort of accepted it, although they know I'd lost my mom and i know they were "suspicious" and concerned i think about me, but i just couldn't deal with any of that stuff.

Imo, when you're depressed, small talk is THE worst. I avoid it like the plague.

well, my goodness, i thought i was just going to say "I relate" :)) and here i've babbled on ...

I guess you got the picture :)

good wishes to y'all,


Re: Zinya

Posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 10:35:09

In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14's a small world isn't it. I've been keeping my eye out for her other book "Stuggle for Intimacy".
I agree that we shouldn't blame our parents but I still have a lot of anger towards both of them. Through therapy I did learn that It's not my responsibilty to bond with my parents, it was their responsibility to bond with me when I was a child. It use to be very stressful for me to go visit my mother. Through therapy I learnt that I should only visit when I wanted to and not because I felt I had to. Made a big difference for me.

Work is very stressful due to being short staffed in my department. If it weren't for effexor I'd probably be having a nice anxiety attack right about now. Speaking of work..I'd better get back to it.

Have a great day everyone..I'll be back on line later on this afternoon...Willie


Re: personal thoughts, Cher and zinya

Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 10:44:21

In reply to Re: personal thoughts CherC68, posted by zinya on July 23, 2003, at 17:55:30

Zinya (and Cher),
I'm in complete agreement thinking that poor Cher has too much piled on her plate to deal with. Drugs aren't the fix-all in life. If a person is on AD's and a spouse cheats, it's still gonna hurt! I wish we were all "real life" friends instead of cyber-friends. Then we could all march over to Cher's house to pitch in and help.
KDi in Texas

> hi Cher,
> please -- and to mercedes too -- i wasn't meaning for anybody to feel they 'should' have responded to that music post ... It just started being relevant to so many people talking about music but i wasn't sure if people already had read my thoughts on the topic.
> Heaven knows, i get lost in the posts here and sometimes miss some posts i onlyrealize later i didn't even see ... I'd swear sometimes in fact, that they weren't even there previously, as if they "snuck in" belatedly into my list :))
> hmmmm
> Well, Cher, what i was referring to is a sense i've been getting increasingly lately from your posts of the avalanche of things you're dealing with and i debated mentioning here (in part so anyone else, like mercedes for example, who disagrees with my interpretation could chime in -- as well as obviously you yourself) and i feel a bit funny giving an unsolicited "diagnosis" cuz also, heaven knows, i'm no diagnostician... But several recent posts of yours have increasingly led me to think that with what you are dealing with in your life just even in terms of your hands, but then with so much else, of managing your whole house amid floods and storms and so many other things you've gradually shared bit by bit plus just even the "usual" wifely and motherly and employee stresses that come with the territory, you've had an avalanche of things beyond the norm... And it has made me think that maybe what you're dealing with is "normal depression/anxiety/stress" rather than a "clinical" one which is due to biochemical imbalance that requires or would benefit from these a-d's. It made me begin to think that maybe your inner instinct that made you quit the Effexor was a totally right instinct, and with others having not worked either, maybe it's telling you that your biochemistry doesn't need an a-d. Maybe the problem is that you've been totally overloaded with too much-- starting with, most basically, the pains of your hands which would make anyone in pain, which always makes a person constantly irritated and zapping your strength etc etc...
> For years, I kept coming back to a sense that maybe for me too it wasn't really a biochemical thing each time i tried one and had a bad reaaction and quit -- and i could still wind up coming to that conclusion with Effexor too, but so far it's been something i could stick with longer and give it a "real try" and maybe it's telling me that there is some biochemical thing it's "fixing."
> Now, heaven knows, i'm in no position to be doing this long-distance "analysis" of what you're dealing with. But the more i would hear you describe BOTH all the ENORMOUS hassles (which is an understatement) that you've been coping with AND on the other hand how i hear signs that say to me you are still able to do things (as odd as it sounds) like laugh hysterically or vibrate with music and talk with such delight about your cousin's band ... Things that -- and maybe here it's just me whose experience is too unrepresentative -- but i feel like if mine is "clinical depression" as I finally decided maybe it is, i can't even imagine (even yet) having the energy to laugh hysterically -- which I wish i could do again (but, please understand, i'm not minimizing how crazed you were feeling then)... Maybe that's a bad basis for seeing a contrast, which is why i'm giving an example for you to see what it is i'm basing this on, but even in your "breakdown" on Monday, you struck me as having the kind of breakdown that any sane person SHOULD have had in that situation. You "deserved" to have a "breakdown" in the midst of all that - and as you described how you started laughing on the phone with your husband about it ... I don't know, maybe i'm totally wrong, but it just didn't sound like what i'm coming to think this "clinical depression" thing is.
> Unfortunately, i think most doctors prescribe way too readily without really plumbing the depths to figure out what kind of depression we are feeling when we say we're depressed. Cuz more than ever, i feel like i'm realizing there's "depressed" and then there's "depressed" -- and i don't want to make one with a capital "D" more than the other cuz each one is surely just as daunting as the other, but i think one of them can benefit from drug therapy cuz there's a biochemical component and the other one can't. And at least one of these "other" kinds of depression would seem to be from an accumulation of life circumstances that leads to depression and anxiety.
> I feel like i'm babbling and you might totally disagree with me - I hope only that i'm making clear what i mean to say, which i'm not at all sure about. Does this make sense to you? If it does, it would make sense of your stopping the a-d's and maybe mean that if you see a pdoc, you might want to pose this question first of whether an a-d is even appropriate for you rather than just assuming one is and trying to find a different one that would work. Maybe with xanax or whatever, the reason you like it is because it's the one thing your body's biochemistry is missing and so maybe that's enough to help and then hopefully if your hands can find relief and all this avalanche of crises can abate... Or do you sense that there's a whole other kind of depression that i'm forgetting about in your situation that does feel like something biochemical to you?
> Well, now i *really* feel like i'm babbling, so i'm gonna quit and hope i haven't said anything that comes across as 'invasive' or presumptuousness but if i have and you want to tell me to "mind my own business" i'll understand, though of course i hope not :)) And, again, of course, it does feel presumptuous of me that i'm saying any of this cuz i don't even know myself whether what i have is "clinical depression" or what it looks or feels like, not to mention that there must be a lot of variation across people ...
> anyway, these were thoughts that had started to occur to me, and it seemed like if i just kept them to myself that -- even if you disagree with my interpretation -- maybe it would be helpful to you to hear it and know whether it sounds reasonable to you or not... That is, if i've even been clear :)
> okay, enough!!
> love and hugs,
> zinya


Re: regarding the word 'should' !! willie

Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 11:14:07

In reply to Re: Zinya, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 10:35:09

hi again Willie,

Your words made me think of one of my 'mantras' of sorts -- and what a wonderful "sign" it was to me to discover that my bereavement counselor had the same mantra, and she now helps me hear it in myself too - and it's one of her golden rules for the bereavement groups that meet twice a month here: Namely, to view the word "should" as a giant red flag.

All the "shoulds" in our lives that we grew up with and keep perpetuating in ourselves ... Actually one of the college-era friends in town here who i have just had to stop seeing ... If you looked up the word "should" in the dictionary, her picture would be there as an illustration!! She's a walking "should"-er, and as much as she resents the same thing in her own sister, she does it too (both telling herself things she should do, which she then resents having done afterwards, as well as telling me and everyone else what i or they should do, notably -- alas -- her very depressed adult daughter) and it triggers the voice in me I'm already trying to UNdo. She's constantly -- well, when i was still talking with her regularly - we just e-mail for now and when she asks how i am, I've learned to ignore the question and answer a different question of hers instead, like about news or movies or something ... cuz if i even open the door to giving a remotely honest answer as to how i am, she's saying i should do this and i should do that ...

(Maybe, to clarify, i should :)) borrow a phrase that John Bradshaw uses to differentiate two types of 'shame' as well -- the kind of 'should' i'm talking about is the "toxic should" (like what he calls 'toxic shame' -- There's a healthy and necessary kind of should (or shame) which serves an important function of telling us we should, for example, tell the truth, not cheat, not kill or steal, etc. etc. ... and should follow the golden rule etc. But this is a different kind of 'should' that creeps in under the guise of being just as vital as these legitimate 'shoulds' but they are toxic cuz they really are about someone else's 'agenda' or 'formula' for us -- or society's at large. And then 'shame' us for not living up to these expectations and judgments which really are very arbitrary. And daily life is flooded with them.)

"Should" is like a laser highway into our inner anxiety straight from that octopus of a thing called Society. (sorry bout the multi-mixed metaphor) And it is fairly lethal. "Should" is ultimately suffocating. It takes the oxygen out of our own sense of who we are, what even our own instincts are - it shouts down listening to our own bodies for "advice" on what we are in the mood for. And sets us up for then resentment and/or self-doubt, frustration, and even depression. Over the years (about ten years or so of being attuned to the destructive power and symbolism of this word) I've developed a kind of radar to hear the word for what it is, which is the first step in then raising one's armor to ward it off and not start feeling guilty or inadequate or failed or whatever...

anyway, my added 2c for the moment :) Sorry if it started to sound like a soapbox or diatribe ! :)) I know i sometimes get off on a long monologue here ... I hope everyone realizes i'm not trying to preach, just sharing a view which i'd love to hear other thoughts about, including contrary views...

wishing you minimal stress today!

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