Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 81137

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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 29, 2001, at 16:06:28

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 15:14:38

I recently read a report tht said the Lymbic area o f the brin is often enlarged in BPD patients.

Thats all I remember of it so don;t know if its of any use!!

Nikki

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 21:35:30

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by NikkiT2 on October 29, 2001, at 16:06:28

(Nikki wrote)
I recently read a report tht said the Lymbic area o f the brin is often enlarged in BPD patients.

Thats all I remember of it so don;t know if its of any use!!

/////Do you, by chance, remember where you read this?

PattyG

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder PattyG

Posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 12:15:50

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 21:35:30

> /////Do you, by chance, remember where you read this?

It's commonly thought that the limbic system is responsible for emotional regulation, which is disrupted in BPD.

-elizabeth

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Posted by Twain on October 30, 2001, at 15:14:11

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 21:35:30

I was diagnosed BPD in 1990, in addition to schizophrenic, histronic, avoidant, anti-social, depressed, and so forth. In and out of hospitals. Now it's PTSD stemming from childhood trauma. Alcoholic mother stabbed my father in the chest in front of me when I was two. He lived. She used to threaten me and my sister with a knife and stick pins in us. Finally, my sister and I ended up in a foster home. My father was drunk and gone all the time.

Anyway, later in college, after more trauma in the army (early 70's), I started cutting myself for no reason. Face, arms, abdomen, legs,. This seems to be part of the Borderline Personality Disorder.

I quit cutting myself in my late 20's but major depression set in. After a decade of living in a virtual cave on the Oregon Coast, I got married during a brief relapse of sobriety.

Seeking one cure after another for anxiety and depression I had all the amalgam (mercury) fillings removed and noticed a dramatic increase in energy. Couldn't handle it. Spent the next two years in and out of VA hospitals. Diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and nearly committed.

Finally, experienced relief when I, then a devout atheist, attended a pentacostal church that laid hands on the sick. Had a "born again" experience but it didn't turn me into a fundamentalist bible-thumper.

But lately I've been slipping. Now a divorced dad raising my 16 year old daughter. She came to live with me full time about a year and a half ago and I've been overwhelmed at times. Tried numerous anti-depressants and even a few anti-psychotics. Flew into a rage (not at my daughter) with the landlord, lawyer, and others. Serzone made me so angry.

Anyway, the past cutting behavior, the homocidal mother and childhood abandonment, the rage that comes out of nowhere, my histronic behavior, alcoholism and a tendency to manipulate people with charm - all seem to be borderline personality traits.

I'm now taking neurotin but not sure after ten days whether it is helping. Any suggestions for this disorder? Although my current pdoc thinks PTSD is at the root of my problem.

Anyone else with BPD have cutting behavior?

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds Elizabeth

Posted by sar on October 30, 2001, at 15:39:20

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sar, posted by Elizabeth on October 29, 2001, at 10:18:57

> Hi there. I'll believe you if you say you were drunk when you wrote this, but I'm responding anyway. :-) (You didn't sound drunk, BTW.)


thanks...but i was many more than 3 sheets to the wind... :)


> After my parents read the book, they gave me a print of the Vermeer painting from which the book takes its title ("Girl Interrupted at Her Music" - http://www.mystudios.com/vermeer/12/vermeer-girl-interrupted.html). My life has been "interrupted" too (I was diagnosed with depression when I was 14, and it got a lot worse in college).

thanks for the link to the painting, i stared at it for quite awhile...

> She'd attempted suicide (or made what is sometimes called a "suicide gesture" -- I was never clear as to why she did it). And back in those days, once you were in the psych hospital you'd often be stuck there for months or even years.

yeah...i guess i just know too many people who have attempted it or made "gestures" to consider it weird. you get so depressed sometimes that it just makes sense...


> I think adolescence should be considered a mental illness. :-)

ha ha...what about early adulthood?

> > that's why my psychoanalyst would not dx me as "borderline," though she said i probably met 5 or 6 of the citeria.
>
> I guess that made you "borderline borderline?" < g >

yeah...here's another interesting thing: she's a freudian psychoanalyst (i've stopped seeing her) and believed that depression must be preceeded by a personality disorder...so every depressed person is at least mildly personality-disordered. what do you make of that?



> I don't think that people with BPD have such a high suicide rate -- it's probably close to the rate for major depression or bipolar disorder, maybe a little lower. Anyway, don't life insurance policies usually refuse to pay if the death is a suicide?

i'm not sure about that, she just mentioned the life insurance...my dad is actually having a very difficult time getting life insurance right now--physically healthy man who's led a clean life, but he dabbled in AD's in the nineties...and the insurance co's don't want him...




> Did he give any reason for considering you histrionic? Sometimes the way that we appear to other people is very different from how we feel inside, so it's not impossible that a social phobic could appear histrionic -- but it does seem pretty unlikely!

mmmm...skimpy clothes, i was a little bit drunk, and my social anxiety tends to melt away if i'm in the company of only one other person. also, it's been shown that many people with social anxiety don't *appear* to have it...you can't *see* heart palpitations or butterflies in the stomach, sweaty underarms, or another person's tunnel vision...it's possible to act like a completely normal person while experiencing those symptoms.

>

> I can see that. A lot of people don't get how a financially well-off, educated person who had a pretty good childhood could be seriously depressed -- it's a problem I've run into as well.

yes, i'm glad you were able to make sense of what i wrote, i was gittin kinda riled up over it--he told me, "oh, you've just read too much Ayn Rand." (i've never read any of her books, nor do i want to.) "too much Camus," he said then. i could have bitten him.

thanks, Elizabeth.

take care,
sar

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Twain

Posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 20:37:42

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by Twain on October 30, 2001, at 15:14:11

Twain,

A lot of people with BPD had chaotic, traumatizing childhoods. That sort of childhood history doesn't always result in a personality disorder, but it often does (I'm not sure how we'd go about gathering statistics!). Anyway given the way your life started out, I would be surprised if there weren't serious long-term effects on you. I hope that things are getting better for you now.

Cutting (sometimes called "self-injury," "self-mutilation," or "parasuicidal behavior") is a common symptom of BPD, but not everyone with BPD cuts and not everyone who cuts has BPD. I don't really understand why people compulsively cut or otherwise or otherwise hurt themselves, although I've know a number of people who do (or did) it. It seems to have some of the qualities of an addiction, and one person I know says that naltrexone helped her stop. People are also often helped by antidepressants and/or anticonvulsants.

> Seeking one cure after another for anxiety and depression I had all the amalgam (mercury) fillings removed and noticed a dramatic increase in energy. Couldn't handle it. Spent the next two years in and out of VA hospitals. Diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and nearly committed.

That's strange. What do you mean when you say you couldn't handle the increase in energy -- were you becoming agitated? What happened?

> Finally, experienced relief when I, then a devout atheist, attended a pentacostal church that laid hands on the sick. Had a "born again" experience but it didn't turn me into a fundamentalist bible-thumper.

That's good :-) Whatever works, I say.

> But lately I've been slipping.

Have you continued going to church? That can be a great support. If not, I hope you have some sort of support network.

> Now a divorced dad raising my 16 year old daughter.

Ouch, that must be tough. I hope you're managing -- both of you.

> Tried numerous anti-depressants and even a few anti-psychotics.

Something that pops to mind is anticonvulsant mood stabilizers, like Depakote, Tegretol (or its newer cousin Trileptal), Lamictal, Topamax, and Neurontin; if the Neurontin you're taking now doesn't do the trick, I think it would be worthwhile to give the other ones a try. These drugs can help with "anger attacks" (as they're sometimes called). The efficacy of Depakote and Tegretol for these types of symptoms is particularly well-documented.

> Anyway, the past cutting behavior, the homocidal mother and childhood abandonment, the rage that comes out of nowhere, my histronic behavior, alcoholism and a tendency to manipulate people with charm - all seem to be borderline personality traits.

Jeez, I wish I could manipulate people with charm! (I'm *not* a charming person.) Consider it a gift, I say (just don't misuse it of course).

> I'm now taking neurotin but not sure after ten days whether it is helping. Any suggestions for this disorder? Although my current pdoc thinks PTSD is at the root of my problem.

Have you heard of complex PTSD? It's sort of a cross between PTSD and BPD. Here are a couple of good descriptions:

http://www.ncptsd.org/facts/specific/fs_complex_ptsd.html

http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/cptsd.html

> Anyone else with BPD have cutting behavior?

Lots of people do, yes.

-elizabeth

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sar

Posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 22:59:23

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds Elizabeth, posted by sar on October 30, 2001, at 15:39:20

> thanks for the link to the painting, i stared at it for quite awhile...

Yeah, isn't Vermeer great? He's one of my favourite artists.

> yeah...i guess i just know too many people who have attempted it or made "gestures" to consider it weird. you get so depressed sometimes that it just makes sense...

"Danger to self or others" is grounds for being committed involuntarily (in Massachusetts and probably every other state), regardless of whether it's understandable or makes sense!

> > I think adolescence should be considered a mental illness. :-)
>
> ha ha...what about early adulthood?

Emotionally, adolescence lasts well beyond the time a person has finished growing, IMO.

> yeah...here's another interesting thing: she's a freudian psychoanalyst (i've stopped seeing her) and believed that depression must be preceeded by a personality disorder...so every depressed person is at least mildly personality-disordered. what do you make of that?

I think it's absurd, but some clinicians advocate adding "depressive personality disorder" to the DSM. The proposed diagnostic criteria are in the appendix to DSM-IV (you can read them, and some discussion of the concept, at http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/depressivepd.html), but there's no indication of how depressive PD would be distinguished from dysthymia.

> my dad is actually having a very difficult time getting life insurance right now--physically healthy man who's led a clean life, but he dabbled in AD's in the nineties...and the insurance co's don't want him...

Probably it's because the depression was recent (in the last decade).

> > Did he give any reason for considering you histrionic?
>
> mmmm...skimpy clothes, i was a little bit drunk, and my social anxiety tends to melt away if i'm in the company of only one other person.

Alcohol probably has a disinhibiting effect, too. (You went to see your shrink drunk? Jeez! < g >)

> also, it's been shown that many people with social anxiety don't *appear* to have it...you can't *see* heart palpitations or butterflies in the stomach, sweaty underarms, or another person's tunnel vision...it's possible to act like a completely normal person while experiencing those symptoms.

I know. I've actually known quite a few people who professed to have very bad social anxiety but who outwardly seemed to be very skilled at dealing with people.

> > A lot of people don't get how a financially well-off, educated person who had a pretty good childhood could be seriously depressed -- it's a problem I've run into as well.
>
> yes, i'm glad you were able to make sense of what i wrote, i was gittin kinda riled up over it--he told me, "oh, you've just read too much Ayn Rand." (i've never read any of her books, nor do i want to.) "too much Camus," he said then. i could have bitten him.

I sympathize! I think that it's unprofessional for psych clinicians to be so judgmental (especially when they try to make their value judgments sound like objective clinical observations). Anyway, I don't recommend Ayn Rand at all! I tried to read a couple of her books, but they were so dreadful I couldn't get very far. But what do her ideas have to do with what we were talking about?

> thanks, Elizabeth.

Sure thing. It's good talking with you.

-e

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:49:07

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 9:40:48

Re Elizabeth Wurtzel`s Prozac Nation-I remember the 1st thing I thought upon reading it was "borderline",though she never mentions the word, probably for stigma reasons. And yet she did improve with meds. Perhaps for some people the personality disorder causes the depression and others the depression causes the personality disorder and which came 1st determines the "curability".

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 8:04:49

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:49:07

(Cecilia wrote)

Perhaps for some
people the personality disorder causes the depression and others the depression causes the personality disorder and
which came 1st determines the "curability".

////That's interesting - is this proven or theory? Because I asked some professionals about the concept of untreated depression, etc. being the cause of BPD and the answer was negative. Personally, I wonder.
PattyG

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 17:16:06

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds Elizabeth, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 0:04:09

(Elizabeth wrote)
> My insurance recently lapsed, and I've been worried ever since. I actually had one of these seizure-like
episodes recently and was really worried, but it turned out that I could get financial assistance to pay the hospital
bills. (I haven't any firm evidence that the episodes are in fact seizures, but all the doctors I've spoken to say that's
what it sounds like.)

////I must be going crazy......I'd have sworn I wrote a message of apology (of sorts) regarding this issue, but it hasn't been posted and I sent it yesterday. Well, anyway......I am *very* interested to know what you meant with regard to "financial assistance" after your insurance lapsed. My son had to sign a waiver for anything having to do with mental health issues as well as seizures (10 and 5 years respectively) and I'm now being told by some that this isn't right. The bills are coming in following his 2nd seizure for ER, ambulance, blood work, scans, doctors, etc. and Unicare just *doesn't* care. I apologized to you, Elizabeth if your source of funding was private - I have no desire to be nosy! However, if there is an agency or some type of funding he might utilize to assist with his bills, that would be wonderful.
Thanks,
PattyG

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds PattyG

Posted by Elizabeth on October 31, 2001, at 22:15:35

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 17:16:06

Patty,

Actually I'm not sure whence came the funding for my brief hospital stay last month; the hospital was a community teaching hospital, and it was an emergency situation. It might have been the government, or the hospital system (it was a teaching hospital for a state university) -- I don't know.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

BTW, mood disorders are probably misdiagnosed as personality disorders sometimes (especially in women and in people with substance abuse problems, IMO) -- generally when these people receive appropriate treatment, they no longer manifest the "personality" symptoms. I think you can get a good sense for whether the apparent personality disorder is primary or results from a mood or anxiety disorder is to look at the person's life history and see if the "personality disorder" traits have been stable and lifelong or whether they only manifested when the mood disorder appeared.

-elizabeth

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Elizabeth

Posted by Twain on October 31, 2001, at 22:18:14

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Twain, posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 20:37:42

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks for the thoughtful response and the info.

When I had the fillings removed I felt increasing anxiety or just plain physical agitation - the minutes turned to hours. I drank to deal with it but that only made the anxiety or agitation worse the next day.

After my born-again experience, I stopped seeing any doctors, and now, after 6 years, I'm seeing a pdoc. Last June, I started drinking off and on. Daughter worked late at a Pizza place all summer, my new landlord turned out to be a slumlord. Finally, when I called the fire department about a clogged kitchen sink with a 1/2 gallon of sulfuric acid in it that my landlord had dumped down the drain and left for a week, my landlord tried to evict us. Stress was too much.

I quit going to church about 2 years ago when I could no longer overcome my innate shyness. I went from playing a tambourine at church to hiding out at home. Fortunately, my daughter goes to church more than ever and is on the worship team. I still play praise music at home, pray/meditate a little and work with a minister/computer wiz. But I'm still too isolated.

When I was discharged from the army, doctors noticed my depth perception was very poor. Later, when I started seeing pdocs, the "diagnosis" hypervigilance was thrown around. Something was going on with my vision or the way my brain interpreted the signal from the eyes. I got a job at the post office by answering the opposite of what I saw on the depth perception test and getting a score of 100%. I was seeing things completely backwards or something. Anway, I gave up driving and became even further isolated.

I'm doing better and considering dc the neurotin. I often get a nagging kind of tension in the back of the head/neck that only goes away if I take more neurotin. The neurotin helped some though by sedating me.

I'm hoping to get back into some sort of meditation and drop the pdoc and the meds. Perhaps, church is a possibility. I'm dismayed about returning to the chemical balancing act and the high cost of pdoc care.

My daughter is doing great (A's in pre-cal and advanced algebra), no longer working late, and likes to play scrabble with dad.

Thanks again for your reply.

best wishes,

Twain

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by Cecilia on November 1, 2001, at 2:38:04

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 8:04:49

> (Cecilia wrote)
>
> Perhaps for some
> people the personality disorder causes the depression and others the depression causes the personality disorder and
> which came 1st determines the "curability".
>
> ////That's interesting - is this proven or theory? Because I asked some professionals about the concept of untreated depression, etc. being the cause of BPD and the answer was negative. Personally, I wonder.
> PattyG

Unfortunately, virtually everything in mental health is theory! All the DSM diagnostic criteria are compromises formed by people in committees and no one, no matter how many degrees they have, really has a clue what causes what.

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by PattyG on November 1, 2001, at 8:53:55

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds PattyG, posted by Elizabeth on October 31, 2001, at 22:15:35


(Elizabeth wrote)

Actually I'm not sure whence came the funding for my brief hospital stay last month; the hospital was a community teaching hospital, and it was an emergency situation. It might have been the government, or the hospital system (it was a teaching hospital for a state university) -- I don't know.
Sorry I can't be of more help.

/////Perhaps in your case, they knew you had no insurance at all and so no attempt was made to collect? I just figured there was some sort of "process" that took place. It's so very disconcerting when these insurance companies can pick and choose what they'll cover and you're just sol if you don't happen to work for a big company.

BTW, mood disorders are probably misdiagnosed as personality disorders sometimes (especially in women and in people with substance abuse problems, IMO) -- generally when these people receive appropriate treatment, they no longer manifest the "personality" symptoms. I think you can get a good sense for whether the apparent personality disorder is primary or results from a mood or anxiety disorder is to look at the person's life history and see if the "personality disorder" traits have been stable and lifelong or whether they only manifested when the mood disorder appeared.

/////Yes, well in my son's case, I always knew that "something was wrong." I first spoke to a psychiatrist about him when he was 18 mos. old - very sad/solemn child. He has suffered from depression all of his life and the BPD "began" as Oppositional Defiant Conduct Disorder, which many professionals are now realizing can be the early onset of BPD. My experience has been that more often than not, many male Borderlines are incorrectly diagnosed as having Antisocial PD.

Thanks for the info - if you think of any more particulars regarding the hospital bill situation, please let me know, okay?

Thanks much,
PattyG

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by Elizabeth on November 1, 2001, at 14:35:11

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on November 1, 2001, at 8:53:55

> /////Perhaps in your case, they knew you had no insurance at all and so no attempt was made to collect? I just figured there was some sort of "process" that took place.

There was -- some sort of social services person came to my room the day after I got there, I filled out a form, and that was it.

> /////Yes, well in my son's case, I always knew that "something was wrong."

That's often the case, I think; that doesn't necessarily imply a "personality disorder." ADHD and social phobia, for example, are often lifelong disorders.

> I first spoke to a psychiatrist about him when he was 18 mos. old - very sad/solemn child. He has suffered from depression all of his life and the BPD "began" as Oppositional Defiant Conduct Disorder, which many professionals are now realizing can be the early onset of BPD.

"Oppositional defiant disorder" and "conduct disorder" are two different things; the latter is considered a precursor to antisocial personality disorder, not BPD (in fact, one of the diagnostic criteria for antisocial PD is that there must be evidence of conduct order in childhood).

> My experience has been that more often than not, many male Borderlines are incorrectly diagnosed as having Antisocial PD.

I don't know if we can really say which diagnosis is the "right" one. BPD is certainly trendier at present (there's a lot of research being done on it, and it's probably overdiagnosed in general), but it's diagnosed mostly in women. Some experts think that antisocial and borderline PDs are manifestations of the same underlying problem in males and females, respectively.

> Thanks for the info - if you think of any more particulars regarding the hospital bill situation, please let me know, okay?

I don't know what the exact qualifications are for this type of assistance, and it probably varies from state to state. I imagine that the qualifications have to do with your income and whether you have any sort of insurance.

HTH

-elizabeth

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by PattyG on November 1, 2001, at 17:02:33

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by Elizabeth on November 1, 2001, at 14:35:11


> /////Yes, well in my son's case, I always knew that "something was wrong."

(Elizabethe wrote)
That's often the case, I think; that doesn't necessarily imply a "personality disorder." ADHD and social phobia, for example, are often lifelong disorders.

////No, I wasn't necessarily saying he had a personality disorder per se (as a child) however, in retrospect we all certainly realized there was more to it than "simply" depression. He went through a stage of being somewhat hyperactive, but has never really been labeled with ADHD (or social phobia, for that matter.)

> I first spoke to a psychiatrist about him when he was 18 mos. old - very sad/solemn child. He has suffered from depression all of his life and the BPD "began" as Oppositional Defiant Conduct Disorder, which many
professionals are now realizing can be the early onset of BPD.

"Oppositional defiant disorder" and "conduct disorder" are two different things; the latter is considered a precursor to antisocial personality disorder, not BPD (in fact, one of the diagnostic criteria for antisocial PD is that there must be evidence of conduct order in childhood).

////Yes, I realize that - that's why I said ODD was his diagnosis.

> My experience has been that more often than not, many male Borderlines are incorrectly diagnosed as having Antisocial PD.

I don't know if we can really say which diagnosis is the "right" one. BPD is certainly trendier at present (there's a lot of research being done on it, and it's probably overdiagnosed in general), but it's diagnosed mostly in women. Some experts think that antisocial and borderline PDs are manifestations of the same underlying problem in males and females, respectively.

////Well, I suppose it would depend on how well one knows the individual:) For instance, my son is very kind to animals, does have a conscience, and has never been in a fight (he can verbalize quite well, but isn't a "fighter.") BPD, Antisocial, Histrionic, and Narcissistic PD's are all from Cluster "B" and, of course, can overlap a bit or one can even have more than one PD, but the diagnostic criteria is pretty clearly defined.


I don't know what the exact qualifications are for this type of assistance, and it probably varies from state to state. I imagine that the qualifications have to do with your income and whether you have any sort of insurance.

/////Yes, I suspect that is correct - I'll just have to check into it. Thanks for responding!

PattyG

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds Elizabeth

Posted by sar on November 3, 2001, at 21:49:24

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sar, posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 22:59:23


> Yeah, isn't Vermeer great? He's one of my favourite artists.

i'd never seen his work before, but i love to see new art...



>
> I think it's absurd, but some clinicians advocate adding "depressive personality disorder" to the DSM. The proposed diagnostic criteria are in the appendix to DSM-IV (you can read them, and some discussion of the concept, at http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/depressivepd.html), but there's no indication of how depressive PD would be distinguished from dysthymia.

methinks there are too many diagnoses already.

>
> Alcohol probably has a disinhibiting effect, too. (You went to see your shrink drunk? Jeez! < g >)

often. :) not drunk actually, just a little intoxicated.


>
> I know. I've actually known quite a few people who professed to have very bad social anxiety but who outwardly seemed to be very skilled at dealing with people.

it's just horrible. the meds have helped to assuage my sp. in some cases i consider it much more debilitating than depression.

> > > A lot of people don't get how a financially well-off, educated person who had a pretty good childhood could be seriously depressed -- it's a problem I've run into as well.
> >
> > yes, i'm glad you were able to make sense of what i wrote, i was gittin kinda riled up over it--he told me, "oh, you've just read too much Ayn Rand." (i've never read any of her books, nor do i want to.) "too much Camus," he said then. i could have bitten him.
>
> I sympathize! I think that it's unprofessional for psych clinicians to be so judgmental (especially when they try to make their value judgments sound like objective clinical observations). Anyway, I don't recommend Ayn Rand at all! I tried to read a couple of her books, but they were so dreadful I couldn't get very far. But what do her ideas have to do with what we were talking about?

oh, the Ayn Rand and Camus comments stemmed from my confession of majoring in english lit. that my "depression" was simply a result of reading too much objectivism or existentialism. bah i say, bah!


> Sure thing. It's good talking with you.

you too.

sar

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by Cecilia on November 4, 2001, at 2:02:40

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds Elizabeth, posted by sar on November 3, 2001, at 21:49:24

>
> > I think it's absurd, but some clinicians advocate adding "depressive personality disorder" to the DSM. The proposed diagnostic criteria are in the appendix to DSM-IV (you can read them, and some discussion of the concept, at http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/depressivepd.html), but there's no indication of how depressive PD would be distinguished from dysthymia.
>
I`ve never figured out how avoidant personality disorder is distinguished from social phobia.

 

avoidant personality Cecilia

Posted by Elizabeth on November 6, 2001, at 14:27:16

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by Cecilia on November 4, 2001, at 2:02:40

> I`ve never figured out how avoidant personality disorder is distinguished from social phobia.

They're not different, really. I think that just about anyone who could be dx'ed with avoidant personality disorder could also be dx'ed with generalized social phobia, and vice versa.

I believe there has been some research on the question, BTW.

-elizabeth

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sherryM

Posted by sherryM on November 17, 2001, at 1:08:11

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by sherryM on November 17, 2001, at 0:51:40

Well, I don't know why my message didn't show up so here it goes again. I have been recently diagnosed with BPD. I was told two years ago by my old therapist that I may be bipolar 2. I am currently taking neurontin 2700 and wellbutrin 150, a well as klonopin when needed for anxiety attacks. I feel no better after being on this for a month. I am more depressed now and recently started back at my old job and have bouts of crying. I was in an outpatient program at a hospital. I feel the doctors don't care or know what they are doing. I recently met with a new therapist that knows alot about BPD and DBT so I am hopeful. I just want to get well, get on the right meds. I am currently in a relationship of 9 months but my illness is puttin a big strain on it. He is trying to be understanding and supportive. I am financially behind after taking a 7 week leave from work to go to the hospital program that I don't feel helped me much. I am a widowed mom of 4 children. This all adds to my stress which definatley doesn't help the depression. I still have suicidal thoughts continually. I would rather just not exist.

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sherryM

Posted by Pamela Lynn on November 18, 2001, at 4:04:21

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sherryM, posted by sherryM on November 17, 2001, at 1:08:11

Oh Sherry...I sure do know what you feel like..the "I would rather not exist part". I too have BPD; and BPD is tough to treat. I have been down in the place where you are now and I have two little ones myself..If not for THEM, I wouldv'e tossed in the towel. I also have a great support team w/Doctors, Therapist, ect.

I don't know if it will help you, but I take 225 mg of Effexor (NOT Effexor XR). I have been on every med. known to man for my depression (also am bi-polar!) and finally, after all these years I got put on the Effexor and things started changing for the better. I am now not on ANY mood stabilizers and I take Xanax for my panic attacks. I also take Zyprexa for when I am feeling psychotic-due to the BPD.

PLEASE Sherry, don't give up hope..think about your children when all else fails.

I am including my email address here if you want to write to me....I would love to hear from you.

P.L.

> Well, I don't know why my message didn't show up so here it goes again. I have been recently diagnosed with BPD. I was told two years ago by my old therapist that I may be bipolar 2. I am currently taking neurontin 2700 and wellbutrin 150, a well as klonopin when needed for anxiety attacks. I feel no better after being on this for a month. I am more depressed now and recently started back at my old job and have bouts of crying. I was in an outpatient program at a hospital. I feel the doctors don't care or know what they are doing. I recently met with a new therapist that knows alot about BPD and DBT so I am hopeful. I just want to get well, get on the right meds. I am currently in a relationship of 9 months but my illness is puttin a big strain on it. He is trying to be understanding and supportive. I am financially behind after taking a 7 week leave from work to go to the hospital program that I don't feel helped me much. I am a widowed mom of 4 children. This all adds to my stress which definatley doesn't help the depression. I still have suicidal thoughts continually. I would rather just not exist.

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sherryM

Posted by Elizabeth on November 19, 2001, at 11:47:03

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sherryM, posted by sherryM on November 17, 2001, at 1:08:11

>Well, I don't know why my message didn't show up so here it goes again. I have been recently diagnosed with BPD. I was told two years ago by my old therapist that I may be bipolar 2.

Because it's been assumed in the past that "personality disorders" don't respond to medication (IMO, this is basically a way for treaters to blame the patient for the ineffectiveness of the treatment), a lot of people who might be considered to have "BPD" are getting diagnosed with bipolar II disorder instead of or in addition to BPD. As a result, bipolar II has been getting increasingly nonspecific and amorphous -- it's hard to know what to expect if all you know about a patient is that she's been diagnosed with "bipolar II."

> I am currently taking neurontin 2700 and wellbutrin 150, a well as klonopin when needed for anxiety attacks. I feel no better after being on this for a month.

Sounds like it's time to try something different, then. Don't get discouraged -- there are so many things that can sometimes help with "borderline" symptoms that it takes quite a while before you start running out of options.

> I am more depressed now and recently started back at my old job and have bouts of crying.

FWIW, I have clinical depression too and I got worse on Wellbutrin. It might be that one of the meds you are taking (maybe Wellbutrin, maybe not) is making things worse rather than better. This is often a problem in bipolar disorder (antidepressants make manic/hypomanic symptoms worse) and panic disorder (antidepressants make the anxiety much worse before they make it better), and my impression (mainly from talking to people at support groups and reading online boards like this one) is that it's common in BPD as well.

> I was in an outpatient program at a hospital. I feel the doctors don't care or know what they are doing.

You're not alone -- lots of people get that impression of doctors. This seems to happen in the hospital (or in day treatment or "partial" programs) especially, and not so much in private individual outpatient treatment.

> I recently met with a new therapist that knows alot about BPD and DBT so I am hopeful.

DBT is supposed to be very helpful for people with BPD, as I'm sure you know. I'd definitely recommend that you try to get into a program. A good DBT program should include group "skills training" sessions and individual DBT therapy. An optional component, but one that I think could be helpful as well, is interpersonal group therapy (in addition to the skills training groups and the individual therapy) with other people who have BPD.

> I just want to get well, get on the right meds.

Most people with BPD do want to get well, and it doesn't help at all when frustrated clinicians start implying that BPD patients/clients aren't getting better because they don't want to.

> I am currently in a relationship of 9 months but my illness is puttin a big strain on it. He is trying to be understanding and supportive.

Yes, I'm familiar with that. :-( I became involved in a wonderful relationship within a month after I entered college, and it lasted six years. He was one of the first people I met when I got to college, and I almost immediately felt certain that he was someone I would become close to. We had so much in common -- we shared values, interests, a quirky sense of humor, etc. -- and I couldn't imagine a man who would be a better match for me (I still haven't found one who comes close). I'm a pretty unconventional and eccentric person, and so is he, so we had an intuitive understanding for one another from the day we met. He was also unexpectedly open-minded and understanding about my depression even though he had never been depressed himself (he made a serious and, to a point, successful effort to educate himself about depression and to understand why he couldn't "cheer me up"). He also helped me through some pretty bad spots. But a little while before I graduated, I started becoming very badly depressed, worse than it had ever been before, and our relationship started getting strained. He kept trying to make things work for a long time, but in the end it was too much for him. So when he got his doctorate and went to work for the Department of Energy, I didn't follow (although I did go to visit him for a week once, and we still keep in touch). I don't know what I could have done to make things different, but I still regret that I wasn't able to make that relationship work out.

> I am financially behind after taking a 7 week leave from work to go to the hospital program that I don't feel helped me much. I am a widowed mom of 4 children. This all adds to my stress which definatley doesn't help the depression. I still have suicidal thoughts continually. I would rather just not exist.

*hug* Children are wonderful, but they're also stressful, especially for single parents. Do you have family who could help you out while you focus on getting better?

Another thought: perhaps you can find strength in the special connection you have to your children. I've known a lot of people who found that during hard times, their love for their children kept them going.

About meds -- like I said, there are dozens of options, and it's hard to find the right thing on the first try. Mood stabilizers can help with mood swings and impulsivity. Antidepressants can help with feelings of anger and despair, moodiness, and impulsive or compulsive behaviors. Some people find atypical antipsychotics
Psychostimulants (such as Ritalin) can often help with mood and impulse-control problems as well as lethargy. Finally, one thing that hasn't received much press but might turn out to be important is naltrexone, an opiate antagonist that some people say can really relieve dissociative symptoms and compulsive self-injurious behavior; it's also proven helpful in relieving cravings for alcohol and opioids (like heroin) for those who are addicted, which is a common problem for people with BPD.

I hope this has helped. I posted earlier about the different medications if you'd like more details there.

Don't give up!

Best wishes,
-elizabeth

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by sherryM on November 21, 2001, at 23:48:25

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds sherryM, posted by Elizabeth on November 19, 2001, at 11:47:03

Pam and Elizabeth,
Thank you for your replys and words of encouragement. It's good to know others that understand!
I went to visit my therapist today and he immediately started me in the DBT group.(I had cut myself this weekend and he felt it would be best for me to start right away). I also met with my new "Meds" Doc. He was great. He talked with me about alot of diferent issues, unlike the past two "Med" Docs I had before. He started me on Celexa today to help with the depression. He was unsure of taking me off of the Wellbutrin for now. I had a long day at the hospital, 1:00 to 6:00 but I have to say I feel very hopeful and encouraged by the new help I am getting. For once I feel I have Docs that understand my illness. :) I am also going to put myself totally into the DBT program.
I also had a very nice talk with my "boyfriend" today. He is encouraged also.

> >Do you have family who could help you out while you focus on getting better?< <
Unfortunately my Family does not understand and feels I need to snap out of it and stop feeling sorry for myself.
Thanks again ladies :) Have a happy and safe Holiday!

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds

Posted by petey on November 22, 2001, at 5:33:41

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by sherryM on November 21, 2001, at 23:48:25

> Pam and Elizabeth,
> Thank you for your replys and words of encouragement. It's good to know others that understand!
> I went to visit my therapist today and he immediately started me in the DBT group.(I had cut myself this weekend and he felt it would be best for me to start right away). I also met with my new "Meds" Doc. He was great. He talked with me about alot of diferent issues, unlike the past two "Med" Docs I had before. He started me on Celexa today to help with the depression. He was unsure of taking me off of the Wellbutrin for now. I had a long day at the hospital, 1:00 to 6:00 but I have to say I feel very hopeful and encouraged by the new help I am getting. For once I feel I have Docs that understand my illness. :) I am also going to put myself totally into the DBT program.
> I also had a very nice talk with my "boyfriend" today. He is encouraged also.
>
> > >Do you have family who could help you out while you focus on getting better?< <
> Unfortunately my Family does not understand and feels I need to snap out of it and stop feeling sorry for myself.
> Thanks again ladies :) Have a happy and safe Holiday!


Don't we wish we could just "snap out of it". I really hate when people say that. Or when they say "get out and get some excersize", when you can hardly get out of bed!! I'm alot better now, but I remember when people said that to me , I'd have to bite my tongue for fear of going off on them! Have a great Thanksgiving Everybody!
Petey

 

Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds petey

Posted by corafree on August 24, 2004, at 17:45:13

In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by petey on November 22, 2001, at 5:33:41

> > Pam and Elizabeth,
> > Thank you for your replys and words of encouragement. It's good to know others that understand!
> > I went to visit my therapist today and he immediately started me in the DBT group.(I had cut myself this weekend and he felt it would be best for me to start right away). I also met with my new "Meds" Doc. He was great. He talked with me about alot of diferent issues, unlike the past two "Med" Docs I had before. He started me on Celexa today to help with the depression. He was unsure of taking me off of the Wellbutrin for now. I had a long day at the hospital, 1:00 to 6:00 but I have to say I feel very hopeful and encouraged by the new help I am getting. For once I feel I have Docs that understand my illness. :) I am also going to put myself totally into the DBT program.
> > I also had a very nice talk with my "boyfriend" today. He is encouraged also.
> >
> > > >Do you have family who could help you out while you focus on getting better?< <
> > Unfortunately my Family does not understand and feels I need to snap out of it and stop feeling sorry for myself.
> > Thanks again ladies :) Have a happy and safe Holiday!
>
>
> Don't we wish we could just "snap out of it". I really hate when people say that. Or when they say "get out and get some excersize", when you can hardly get out of bed!! I'm alot better now, but I remember when people said that to me , I'd have to bite my tongue for fear of going off on them! Have a great Thanksgiving Everybody!
> Petey

Hi. I'm trying to link up w/ support as I take my BPD into the DBT. I have missed initial appts. and been late, so have not yet been allowed to go INTO the DBT, but am on probation - 4 wks. not even 5m late. What is all this talk about diagnoses??? I screw up every relationship I have somehow. I cannot lie to save myself, or to save another. I'm on Effexor-XR. At first it wasn't working, but then I read about slow metabolizers, and found that the timing of your second daily dose is VERY important, and you have to find it yourself...it's just before you begin to feel anxiety. So it's working very well. I'm on Neuronton for nerve pain but I guess it helps my mood. Then, only 2mg a day of Klonopin ... which sucks. I am so full of fear that I try to find peeps to go w/ me if I have to go on an errand or to an appt. I don't like leaving the house. When I was about 21 or so, I began having premenstrual dysphoric disorder. That was the beginning of a long trail of love and hate, peace and war,...and now I just want to stop this behavior. Do you think more anxiety med would be beneficial? What is dysthymia? Can you hook me up w/ any '04 posts on BpersonD here? Best Wishes cf


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