Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 46914

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 52. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?

Posted by allisonm on October 20, 2000, at 19:33:09

Maybe this is a rant, or if not a rant, then a vent, or just an open question that isn't necessarily asking for an answer.

I've been on Remeron for about 2.5 years for major depression, single episode, moderate. It didn't work well enough by itself, so Li was added and then subtracted 6 months later. Then Wellbutrin was added almost a year and a half ago to augment, and over time became the primary AD, while Remeron became the augmentor. I have tried Effexor and Zoloft with results scarier than Scott's Halloween web page monsters with the bugging-out eyes (very nice, Scott, I especially like the one with wings - a gargoyle? It reminds me of someone I work with.)

Anyway, I am currently on 400mg Well, was on 15mg Rem until yesterday when my doctor brought up -- what seemed out of the blue at the time -- the idea of changing the augmentor from Rem to Neurontin. No drug combo has worked completely, but the Well/Rem was the best so far. But now I can see where things have not been going so well lately. I thought that maybe it was pressure at work (there has been a lot) but I have noticed that I am much more anxious and sensitive to good/bad things and they affect my mood quite a lot. I hate the unpredictibility. So onto Neurontin - starting at 100mg and working up to 300 over 3 days. It was either that or a 2-week washout and an MAOI, which kinda scares me.

All of this was sort of OK yesterday when it happened, but thinking more about it, it is starting to bother me. I suppose I have been expecting this deep down. I have this bad feeling that the Neurontin won't do the trick either and I'll have to go to an MAOI. I know I am jumping the gun, but nothing has worked completely -- or to my doctor's and my satisfaction. Looking back, I have had a med change about every 6 months for the last couple of years. I know people here take MAOIs and I need to educate myself further on them. As it is, I found more than 1,100 items when I did a PB search on Neurontin - I have not even scratched the surface there and have a lot of reading to do.

So I'm not going to ask about others' experiences on Neurontin because no doubt I'll find them in the searched posts. It is just so frustrating, though, to keep changing and changing and never finding the really right combo. I ranted similarly here last spring when my Wellbutrin got upped to 400 and the Remeron reduced from 30 to 15.

Is this refractory depression? How long do you have to be depressed to be refractory? If the Neurontin doesn't cut it, and I move to an MAOI, how hellish are those two weeks going to be (not to mention waiting for the therapeutic effects)? I am beginning to fear for my job, or maybe it's just the current drug combo failure that's affecting my thoughts on this. I don't know anymore.

I do know that I am crossing bridges, but what if the MAOI doesn't work? Nothing else has so far. Then what? I think the Harvard algorithm, which mirrors my doctor's tack, says something to the effect of: if the MAOI doesn't work, start at the beginning again. I wonder if I can stand this that long.

I am not suicidal. I have felt pretty good, considering, or about as good as I've ever felt in the last 3 years, up until recently. The Wellbutrin seems to help. I am just so tired of this hit-and-miss, feeling sort of better, or kind of better but not entirely, even though I think my doctor is on the right track -- at least in recognizing when things aren't working anymore (if they ever did). One other thing -- I have had a wicked sinus headache ALL DAY today. Is this from the absence of the histimine action of the Remeron?

This stinks and I'm tired, damn it. I feel like I'm never going to get fixed.

 

Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?

Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 21:49:14

In reply to Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?, posted by allisonm on October 20, 2000, at 19:33:09

Hi Allison.

First, I have a question. What is the Harvard algorithm and where can I find it on the Internet?

Thanks.

I recall seeing one algorithm (NIMH?) that said to change mood stabilizers and then go through another sequence of antidepressant trials. This, however is not going back to the beginning. There are far too many permutations of drug combinations to try before you could possibly get to the point of having to start all over again. If you doubt this, make believe you are going to get well on a combination of three different drugs. Figure you have 20 to work with (there are at least twice this). Sit down and figure out how many combinations are possible before you would have to go back and and start over again.

* Does anyone know how to calculate the number of possible permutations of a three drug combination using 20 drugs?


Are you going to stop Remeron to add the Neurontin?

To me, logic suggests that you not subtract the Remeron to make room for the Neurontin. I have never heard of a problem using them in combination. Perhaps Remeron is helping. Even more - maybe the Neurontin needs the Remeron to work! If magic happens after establishing the Neurontin dosage (600mg-2400mg), you may then try to discontinue the Remeron to see if you need it.

The other thing that occurs to me is that it is not necessary to discontinue Wellbutrin before beginning an MAOI. They can actually work well together when neither by itself is adequate. I have tried Parnate + Wellbutrin twice. The "recommended" order of establishing such a combination is to add the MAOI second, so you are currently in the ideal position to do so. As far as Remeron is concerned, I wish I knew one way or the other whether it is compatible with an MAOI. I don't recall bumping into anyone who has tried this, but that doesn't mean that it is not safe. Off hand, I cannot think of any reason why such a combination would represent any more of a risk than someone who takes an MAOI with trazodone, a tricyclic, and yohimbine - all of which have been done here on Psycho-Babble. Only theoretical.

Given that you now feel that Wellbutrin is the major contributor to your partial, although inadequate, improvement, I would press your doctor to research the clinical use of Wellbutrin in combination with MAOIs. Perhaps you don't have to go through two weeks of pure hell - only a watered-down version of it.

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried Serzone or Risperdal?

I'm sorry that things are so difficult for you. I don't think it is reasonable to look at an MAOI as being the last card in the deck to be played. I think that an MAOI is a reasonable choice at this point, but I'm sure there are others. Here's one: Tofranil (imipramine) + lithium (300-600mg) + thyroid. Or how about adding all of those to everything you are currently taking. I doubt you have tried that yet. I haven't. It is a reasonable combination, though. Notice, no SRIs.

You'll get there.


- Scott


P.S. I am tickled that you enjoyed my webpage. :-) Yes, it is a gargoyle.

> Maybe this is a rant, or if not a rant, then a vent, or just an open question that isn't necessarily asking for an answer.
>
> I've been on Remeron for about 2.5 years for major depression, single episode, moderate. It didn't work well enough by itself, so Li was added and then subtracted 6 months later. Then Wellbutrin was added almost a year and a half ago to augment, and over time became the primary AD, while Remeron became the augmentor. I have tried Effexor and Zoloft with results scarier than Scott's Halloween web page monsters with the bugging-out eyes (very nice, Scott, I especially like the one with wings - a gargoyle? It reminds me of someone I work with.)
>
> Anyway, I am currently on 400mg Well, was on 15mg Rem until yesterday when my doctor brought up -- what seemed out of the blue at the time -- the idea of changing the augmentor from Rem to Neurontin. No drug combo has worked completely, but the Well/Rem was the best so far. But now I can see where things have not been going so well lately. I thought that maybe it was pressure at work (there has been a lot) but I have noticed that I am much more anxious and sensitive to good/bad things and they affect my mood quite a lot. I hate the unpredictibility. So onto Neurontin - starting at 100mg and working up to 300 over 3 days. It was either that or a 2-week washout and an MAOI, which kinda scares me.
>
> All of this was sort of OK yesterday when it happened, but thinking more about it, it is starting to bother me. I suppose I have been expecting this deep down. I have this bad feeling that the Neurontin won't do the trick either and I'll have to go to an MAOI. I know I am jumping the gun, but nothing has worked completely -- or to my doctor's and my satisfaction. Looking back, I have had a med change about every 6 months for the last couple of years. I know people here take MAOIs and I need to educate myself further on them. As it is, I found more than 1,100 items when I did a PB search on Neurontin - I have not even scratched the surface there and have a lot of reading to do.
>
> So I'm not going to ask about others' experiences on Neurontin because no doubt I'll find them in the searched posts. It is just so frustrating, though, to keep changing and changing and never finding the really right combo. I ranted similarly here last spring when my Wellbutrin got upped to 400 and the Remeron reduced from 30 to 15.
>
> Is this refractory depression? How long do you have to be depressed to be refractory? If the Neurontin doesn't cut it, and I move to an MAOI, how hellish are those two weeks going to be (not to mention waiting for the therapeutic effects)? I am beginning to fear for my job, or maybe it's just the current drug combo failure that's affecting my thoughts on this. I don't know anymore.
>
> I do know that I am crossing bridges, but what if the MAOI doesn't work? Nothing else has so far. Then what? I think the Harvard algorithm, which mirrors my doctor's tack, says something to the effect of: if the MAOI doesn't work, start at the beginning again. I wonder if I can stand this that long.
>
> I am not suicidal. I have felt pretty good, considering, or about as good as I've ever felt in the last 3 years, up until recently. The Wellbutrin seems to help. I am just so tired of this hit-and-miss, feeling sort of better, or kind of better but not entirely, even though I think my doctor is on the right track -- at least in recognizing when things aren't working anymore (if they ever did). One other thing -- I have had a wicked sinus headache ALL DAY today. Is this from the absence of the histimine action of the Remeron?
>
> This stinks and I'm tired, damn it. I feel like I'm never going to get fixed.

 

Remeron+Wellbutrin-Remeron+Neurontin=? » SLS

Posted by allisonm on October 21, 2000, at 5:43:32

In reply to Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?, posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 21:49:14

Scott,

Thanks for your reply. The Harvard Algorithm is located at: http://www.mhc.com/Algorithms/
(It's also on Dr. Bob's links page if you lose the address.) There's a Texas algorithm on the links page too, but I like the Harvard one. Go to the depression algorithm. I'd be interested to know what you think of it. There also is an algorithm on anxiety and one on schizophrenia there.

I know a lot of people here are taking 3,4,5 drugs at a time. Sometimes I wonder how they can keep track of them all. Other times I wonder how they know whether they all are contributing and how. I've been on two at the most, and my doctor seems not to want to go higher than that. That surprised me a little but I have not argued, either, because although I am getting used to the idea that I am going to have to take drugs probably for the rest of my life, I hate being a slave to them. I take drugs 3 times a day (morning, 3 pm and 9 pm) and am very aware of it -- I am always checking to see what time it is so that I don't forget a dose. I don't especially want to add to it. My doctor said almost cheerfully that I can take the Neurontin when I take the Wellbutrin in the morning and at 3. (Oh, yay! thought I ...not)

My doctor's suggestion was/is to stop the Remeron and start the Neurontin at bedtime, which I've done. He said the Neurontin could help wiith my sleep. Thursday night was OK -- I slept through the night without the Remeron and even had trouble waking up at 6 to get ready for work, but I also was up extra late -- till midnight. Last night I was tired and went to bed at 9:30. Took 200mg Neurontin then, no Remeron. Woke up at 4 and here I am at 6 am Saturday morning writing to you. I see my doctor again on Tuesday. If this keeps up, I'll ask about adding in the Remeron again. I didn't think of your good point that maybe the Neurontin needs the Remeron to work. I'll also ask him about adding an MAOI to the Wellbutrin. Is the MAOI diet as bad as it seems from the outside? I don't eat meat and the thought of losing tempeh, Miso, and especially cheese is pretty depressing right there. Is tahini fermented or is it OK to eat? I couldn't find tahini on the MAOI diet on Dr. Bob's links page. I don't want to give up hummous.

I haven't tried Serzone or Risperdal. I have tried lithium with Remeron and absolutely hated it. I tried a couple of preparations, but each gave me severe diarrhea at the same time every day, not to mention weight gain that I could not take off. At least when I was only on the Remeron, the weight gain seemed to level off. With the Li, it just kept going up no matter how much I exercised or how little I ate. I am just now getting back to the weight I was before Li/Rem, but not yet where I was before I started all of this (granted, weight loss was a symptom of my untreated depression, but I loved that part of it as I have always been a little heavier than I'd like to be.) I really like this Wellbutrin because it kills my appetite; I've lost 15 and am going on 20 lbs. Blood tests have found no thyroid problems.

Thank you for your ideas, support, and encouragement, Scott. They help a lot.

Best wishes,
Allison

PS: I think you're onto something with that Frankenstein web wallpaper... I've been looking at re-wallpapering my bathroom -- something aquatic, maybe with goldfish. But hey, maybe I should reconsider... ;-) Thanks again.


> Hi Allison.
>
> First, I have a question. What is the Harvard algorithm and where can I find it on the Internet?
>
> Thanks.
>
> I recall seeing one algorithm (NIMH?) that said to change mood stabilizers and then go through another sequence of antidepressant trials. This, however is not going back to the beginning. There are far too many permutations of drug combinations to try before you could possibly get to the point of having to start all over again. If you doubt this, make believe you are going to get well on a combination of three different drugs. Figure you have 20 to work with (there are at least twice this). Sit down and figure out how many combinations are possible before you would have to go back and and start over again.
>
> * Does anyone know how to calculate the number of possible permutations of a three drug combination using 20 drugs?
>
>
> Are you going to stop Remeron to add the Neurontin?
>
> To me, logic suggests that you not subtract the Remeron to make room for the Neurontin. I have never heard of a problem using them in combination. Perhaps Remeron is helping. Even more - maybe the Neurontin needs the Remeron to work! If magic happens after establishing the Neurontin dosage (600mg-2400mg), you may then try to discontinue the Remeron to see if you need it.
>
> The other thing that occurs to me is that it is not necessary to discontinue Wellbutrin before beginning an MAOI. They can actually work well together when neither by itself is adequate. I have tried Parnate + Wellbutrin twice. The "recommended" order of establishing such a combination is to add the MAOI second, so you are currently in the ideal position to do so. As far as Remeron is concerned, I wish I knew one way or the other whether it is compatible with an MAOI. I don't recall bumping into anyone who has tried this, but that doesn't mean that it is not safe. Off hand, I cannot think of any reason why such a combination would represent any more of a risk than someone who takes an MAOI with trazodone, a tricyclic, and yohimbine - all of which have been done here on Psycho-Babble. Only theoretical.
>
> Given that you now feel that Wellbutrin is the major contributor to your partial, although inadequate, improvement, I would press your doctor to research the clinical use of Wellbutrin in combination with MAOIs. Perhaps you don't have to go through two weeks of pure hell - only a watered-down version of it.
>
> Out of curiosity, have you ever tried Serzone or Risperdal?
>
> I'm sorry that things are so difficult for you. I don't think it is reasonable to look at an MAOI as being the last card in the deck to be played. I think that an MAOI is a reasonable choice at this point, but I'm sure there are others. Here's one: Tofranil (imipramine) + lithium (300-600mg) + thyroid. Or how about adding all of those to everything you are currently taking. I doubt you have tried that yet. I haven't. It is a reasonable combination, though. Notice, no SRIs.
>
> You'll get there.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> P.S. I am tickled that you enjoyed my webpage. :-) Yes, it is a gargoyle.

 

Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?

Posted by JohnL on October 21, 2000, at 5:44:27

In reply to Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?, posted by allisonm on October 20, 2000, at 19:33:09

Allison,
Wow, I sure am sorry. I would like to help, but I don't have any specifics. I can though offer some generalities to ponder, which might help steer you in the right direction for the fastest possible results.

What is refractory depression? As I see it, there really isn't such a thing. There are depressions however that are not treated with the correct drug(s). Those will obviously seem to be refractory.

Let's say for example the root cause of someone's depression is low GABA. Of course, we don't know that ahead of time. The person tries 3 different SSRIs six months each. Not good enough. Then a TCA for 3 months. Still no good. Then Lamictal, Neurontin, Lithium, Depakote 3 months each. Not good enough. An MAOI. Still, not good enough. Ritalin, Adderall, still not right. On most of these there may have been some improvement, but without a doubt they all fell short. Is this refractory depression? No. A simple 1mg dose of either Xanax, Valium, or Clonazepam could have been a total cure within one week, fixing the low GABA. Meanwhile, almost 4 years has gone by!! Yikes.

Cases like yours are where the Jensen method shines. Most people don't need the Jensen method. But when the going gets rough and a lot of time is passing by, we need a strategy to identify what the heck is wrong so we can narrow down our choices and fix it head-on. Since the whole psychiatric process is a guessing game anyway, we might as well use that to our favor, rather than have it work against us.

In the example above, each of those drugs could have been tried for only 1 to 2 weeks each, with a one day washout in between. In such a short time we cannot expect miracles or full responses. Though they do happen. What we are looking for is a superior match, which makes itself known by a relatively quick response, not a full response, but enough to say "Wow, I can't believe it, I'm actually feeling a little better in just three days!" That is the clue that we are on the right track to targeting whatever the underlying chemical problem really is.

In the above example, the patient could have discovered the perfect drug in less than a year. At the rate you're going now, it could take a lifetime, if it ever happens at all. In the end, perhaps a blend of 2 or 3 of the favorites could be combined. Regardless, ALL possible chemistries would have been explored and no stones left unturned. If a doctor says one or two weeks isn't long enough, you say "yes and no". It's not long enough for complete response. Sometimes it is actually. But it is enough time to weed out the inferior drugs that either don't do anything or make us worse. If a drug isn't showing considerable promise in 2 weeks, it is totally senseless to stay on it 3 months or 6 months.

The purpose of this whole approach is to identify what system in the brain is malfunctioning. Then we can correct it. If this sounds at all interesting, I would suggest going to www.drjensen.com and ordering the book "The Successful Treatment of Brain Chemical Imbalance." It's only about $30, probably the best $30 you'll ever spend in your lifetime.
Hope this helps. :-) John

 

Wellbutrin/Parnate question for SLS

Posted by allisonm on October 21, 2000, at 8:22:07

In reply to Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?, posted by allisonm on October 20, 2000, at 19:33:09

Scott,

Is there something written somewhere about adding Parnate to Wellbutrin or any other MAOI to Wellbutrin that I could get a copy of and show to my doctor?

Thanks.

Allison

 

Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ? » JohnL

Posted by allisonm on October 21, 2000, at 8:52:36

In reply to Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?, posted by JohnL on October 21, 2000, at 5:44:27

John,

Thanks very much. I've read your earlier posts about Dr. Jensen with interest but thought I had the right mix. I suppose spending another $30 can't hurt. I've spent I don't want to know how much on books on Jungian analysis...

Thanks again.
Allison

 

Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ? » JohnL

Posted by SLS on October 21, 2000, at 10:42:01

In reply to Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ?, posted by JohnL on October 21, 2000, at 5:44:27

Dear John,

Sorry.


> If a drug isn't showing considerable promise in 2 weeks, it is totally senseless to stay on it 3 months or 6 months.

This sentence is a bit deceptive when read.

1. I disagree that it is senseless to remain on a drug regimen for more that two weeks if it isn't showing "considerable promise".

2. I agree that for most currently used antidepressant drug treatments, it is not indicated to continue on them if they haven't produced adequate results by 3 months.

I find this statement to be an unnecessary exaggeration without sufficient foundation in fact to recommend. Martin Jensen's notions regarding trials of less than one week to find a "best match" is, of course, an appealing one. The clinical experience of too many other successful physicians yields the contrary. The fact that researchers have, for over twenty years, been vigilantly pursuing treatments that work more quickly than two weeks demonstrates the recognition that the ones we have right now don't. Let's at least give people three weeks. Maybe four. There are always exceptions.

The problem with casting aside most antidepressants so quickly is that perhaps it is the drug that takes three or four weeks to work for an individual that IS the best match for them. Can you guarantee with 100% confidence that for any one person, there is always a drug that will work within the first 14 days, and that will be the one that also produces the best long-term remission? Is this 14-day recommendation the same regardless of severity or previous treatment-resistance? Doesn't Dr. Jensen advocate only a 7-day trial of each drug?

I think your examples serve well to underscore how much time is often wasted lingering on regimens that don't work adequately. However, I find the one-week trial period (somehow became extended to two weeks) is at this point in time, counterproductive. I really do hope that clinical psychiatry discovers that the premise and methodology expounded by Martin Jensen are valid. It would save a great deal of heartache and misery - not to mention preventing suicides. I don't think there is a conspiracy on the part of the whole scientific community to refuse the recognition of a clinical method that prevents suicide.

Can you refresh my memory as to how long it took for *you* to respond to adrafinil? How did you measure "considerable promise", and on which of the first 7 days did you see it? I guess we'll just make an exception for adrafinil.

I still don't understand how you can deduce the specific neurochemistry of an individual's disorder when affective disorder has yet to be explained in general. We are certainly beyond the point of random trial-and-error. Treatment algorithms exist based upon reactions to sequential trials of drugs with decisions made based upon these reactions. Yes, drugs are often chosen based upon their putative mechanisms of action. There are several different rationales for doing so. However, this is a far cry from choosing drugs and eliminating drugs from consideration by first determining the neurophysiology of each particular case. One day soon.

For example, I know of someone who had terribly negative experiences with noradrenergic (NE) drugs. They made him feel worse. I recall reboxetine being one of the more recent ones. Yet, he did not feel confident enough in his ability to determine that his problem must lie outside the NE system, and that any NE drug would produce a similarly negative reaction. But rather, he chose to try a drug that he believed was a NE alpha-1 agonist. It is a good thing he didn't know as much then as he does now. He seems to have chosen the right drug for himself. I think it was his idea. He gave it more than two weeks and his choice was not the product of a consultation with Dr. Jensen. Lucky.


- Scott

 

Re: Wellbutrin/Parnate question for SLS » allisonm

Posted by SLS on October 21, 2000, at 11:58:46

In reply to Wellbutrin/Parnate question for SLS, posted by allisonm on October 21, 2000, at 8:22:07

> Scott,
>
> Is there something written somewhere about adding Parnate to Wellbutrin or any other MAOI to Wellbutrin that I could get a copy of and show to my doctor?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Allison

Sorry, Allison, but I could not find on Medline the references that I had expected to. One of the earliest proponents of using a combination of Wellbutrin and Parnate is a doctor John Feighner. I think he practices in San Diego, California at the Feighner Research Institute. Perhaps he would make himself available for a "quickie" with your doctor.

http://www.feighnerresearch.com/

If I run across anything else, I'll post it. I'm surprised that I couldn't come up with more. I know you'll find people who have used Wellbutrin + MAOI in the Psycho-Babble archives.


- Scott


------------------------------------------------------------------


Bupropion–Tranylcypromine for Refractory Depression

The combination of bupropion and tranylcypromine was used safely and successfully in a patient with chronic, treatment-resistant depression.1

A 27-year-old woman had a history of chronic major depression that had been refractory to trials of an SSRI and various TCAs, plus adjunctive methylphenidate. She had been started on 150 mg/day bupropion, and 2 months later, tranylcypromine was added and titrated to 50 mg/day. Her depressive symptoms slowly resolved.

Five months later, bupropion was tapered and stopped. Within 2 weeks her depressive symptoms recurred, but resolved after bupropion was restarted. A subsequent attempt to withdraw tranylcypromine was associated with a recurrence of mood symptoms.

For the last 2 years, she has remained on a regimen of 150 mg bupropion SR b.i.d. and 60 mg/day tranylcypromine, with no recurrence of depression. During that time she had 1 episode of symptomatic hypertension after eating cheese, which was managed at home with nifedipine. She has nifedipine available for a hypertensive crisis, and uses low-dose lorazepam as needed for mild transient episodes of stress-related dysphoria or insomnia.

According to the criteria of Thase and Rush, this patient’s poor response to multiple antidepressant trials classifies her depression at Stage IV resistance, making her a candidate for ECT.2 However, she preferred to stay employed and to receive outpatient treatment.

Discussion: The combination of bupropion and an MAOI is not generally recommended, because it can increase the risk for hypertensive crisis or may risk bupropion toxicity.3,4 However, cautious coadministration of bupropion and tranylcypromine may be a viable therapeutic option in patients who are unresponsive to trials of antidepressants.

1. Pierre J, Gitlin M: Bupropion-tranylcypromine combination for treatment-refractory depression (letter). Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 2000;61 (June):450–451. From UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute, Los Angeles, Calif.

2. Thase M, Rush A: When at first you don’t succeed: sequential strategies for antidepressant nonresponders. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 1997;58 (suppl 13):23–29.
3. Kaplan H, Sadock B, eds. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry. 6th ed. Baltimore, Md: Lippincott, Williams & Wilkins; 1995.

4. Product information. Bupropion (Wellbutrin). Glaxo Wellcome. May 1997.

Drug Trade Names: bupropion—Wellbutrin; lorazepam—Ativan; methylphenidate—Ritalin;
nifedipine—Adalat, Procardia; tranylcypromine—Parnate


 

Re: Wellbutrin/Parnate question for SLS » SLS

Posted by allisonm on October 21, 2000, at 13:14:38

In reply to Re: Wellbutrin/Parnate question for SLS » allisonm, posted by SLS on October 21, 2000, at 11:58:46

Scott,

Thanks so much for the article! I've emailed the Feighner Institute and I will search the archives.
Thanks again!

Allison

 

Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - SLS

Posted by JohnL on October 22, 2000, at 7:43:11

In reply to Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - Remeron + Neurontin = ? » JohnL, posted by SLS on October 21, 2000, at 10:42:01

Dear Scott,
You ask some good questions and make some good points. I must admit, it is difficult for me to get ideas across in writing in just a few paragraphs. I can easily see how things I say could be perceived in ways not intended. I'll try to address the issues you mentioned.

1. As I've said a million times, a 1 or 2 week trial is not intended to get a total response...I agree, it takes longer to do that...instead, it is to compare the choices, and THEN choose the best of the bunch for a conventional 6 to 8 week trial. For example, in the SSRI class one could try Effexor, then Zoloft, then Prozac. Almost certainly one will in some way seem better to the patient in as little as a week. Perhaps side effects were nill, or they felt a little improvement, or something. There will be some kind of hint that the person likes one better than the others. THEN we go back to the favorite of the comparisons and apply traditional psychiatric principles to it...that is, a longer trial. The whole purpose of quick trials is merely to separate inferior matches from superior ones. That's all. They almost always make themselves known very clearly, IF the patient has the chance to compare. If there are no favorites...like maybe every drug in the class made the patient feel worse right away...then we move onto to totally different class and probe there. We're trying to find out what system in the brain is malfunctioning. Is it serotonin? Dopamine? NE? Some kind of instability? What? Reactions to meds will provide us clues to figure all this out. It usually doesn't take more than a week or two to gather the needed clues.

2. So, the 6 to 12 week trial, or whatever, is still part of the game. It's just that we want to be sure we are on the best drug in its class before committing to a longer trial or before probing other medication classes. Quick comparisons usually point us in the right direction. One drug will almost always stand out as being better than the others. An important point here though, this method should not be used in patients who are clearly suididal or psychotic. Though the patient may be very very depressed or anxious or whatever, they must at least be somewhat stable. So for those people truly on the edge of insanity and about to fall off into space, this method is not appropriate. Hospitalization and conventional psychiatry would be appropriate.

3. I hope you can see, by this method we are not "casting aside" any drug. We are merely trying to find a favorite. The best match. There's no rule that says we can't try our second favorite instead. But almost certainly, the completely unfavored ones will be eliminated quickly. No prescious time wasted on 6 or 12 week trials with them. There's always a better one.

4. As you mentioned, I too hope the psychiatric community finds Jensen's methods valid. So far so good though. They have been endorsed by Menninger's Clinic in Kansas, which was rated as one of the top two psychiatric hospitals in the country. If you go there for treatment, you'll probably see the Jensen method in action. And if you go to one of three medical schools in the country, you'll have to study it. It's one of the things they're teaching.

5. You're absolutely right...I had NO expectation whatsoever that Adrafinil would be good for me. NE drugs generally were very unpredictable for me, sometimes throwing me into a deep depression on the very first day. It's just that what I read about it in literature looked so enticing, I couldn't resist. And in the back of my mind, I knew that it worked by a completely different way than other NE meds...that is, it doesn't increase NE levels. Just for the record, years ago I DID have a decent response to Nortriptyline, a NE/5HT tricyclic. And I liked my first couple days on Desipramine as well. With both, the side effects were incredible. I couldn't take it. But response WAS indeed pretty good in a very short time. The NE drugs that made me feel bad were Reboxetine and Moclobemide. And Serzone. Here again, I think this highlights how a favorite in the bunch can be found. I didn't need to be on any of these for a month to decide if I liked it or not. I could tell you by day 3. The best overall for a longer trial was Adrafinil. But I certainly could have stayed with Nortriptyline or Desipramine in the hopes that the side effects would subside over time. There's no question they could be good for me. I felt good effects from them in the first week. It's just those darn TCA side effects! Whew. I'm not made of iron ya know. :-)

6. I felt a boost from Adrafinil on day 1. I was sad to see it fade by day 3. But that good early response was what I was looking for. After a week, the good response started to creep back in subtly. It really didn't kick in full until week three. But I did know for sure I was onto something good on the very first day. But all the characteristics of a "superior match"...that's what we're looking for in this whole process...were present. Those characteristics for me were...I didn't get worse; I did feel better on day 1; side effects were tolerable right from the getgo. That's all I needed to say, "OK, this one passes the test. I'll give it the six weeks and see what happens". That's how it works.

Did this help or did I just make it more confusing? Without writing a book, or without sitting face to face with someone for a couple hours, I find this concept very challenging to put into a few paragraphs. Anyway, always nice to hear from you, and always nice to try to answer some questions. You ask some very good questions.
John

 

Martin Jensen - Would like more info » JohnL

Posted by SLS on October 23, 2000, at 15:12:16

In reply to Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - SLS, posted by JohnL on October 22, 2000, at 7:43:11

Dear John,

I hope you haven't taken as gospel the material that Martin Jensen has placed on his website. His webpage is a self-promotional vehicle for his business interests. His website is nothing more than an informercial.

> 4. As you mentioned, I too hope the psychiatric community finds Jensen's methods valid. So far so good though. They have been endorsed by Menninger's Clinic in Kansas, which was rated as one of the top two psychiatric hospitals in the country. If you go there for treatment, you'll probably see the Jensen method in action.

The Menninger Clinic was rated 4th in the US News and World Report survey.

I hope the following quote from his website was not your sole source of "information" regarding the "laudable" position the Menninger Clinic has placed the treatment methods of Dr. Jensen.

"

Dr. Douglas Geenens - of Menninger Clinic (Kansas) Phone: (913)-338-1211

"I was so pleased with what I read. I would like to use it as a model for teaching psychopharmacology. I strongly believe in your method of assessment and treatment, as it is mine as well. Your book is quite timely, and the 'Jensen Method' will be embraced by the students I teach. Thank you for your contribution to our field."

"

http://www.drjensen.com/book.html


I wrote a letter to the Menninger Clinic asking them if Martin Jensen's treatment methods were "endorsed" by them. I'll include it at the end of this post, which I think I'll cut short at this point. The only other question I have for now involves your following statement.

> And if you go to one of three medical schools in the country, you'll have to study it. It's one of the things they're teaching

Can you please clarify this sentence for me? As I read it, it seems as if you are stating that one out of every three medical schools in the United States teaches Dr. Jensen's treatment methods as part of their curriculum. Where did you get this information from?

Columbia Presbyterian (Columbia-Cornell University) was rated number two on the US News list. That's higher than the Menninger Clinic. One of their top clinicians and researchers, Patrick J. McGrath, never heard of Martin Jensen. At least that's what he told me.

I guess what you meant is that Martin Jensen's methods are taught at only three medical schools in the entire country.

Do you happen to know which ones? I may want to write some more letters

- Scott

------------------------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott L. Schofield
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:32 PM
To: info@menninger.edu
Subject: Menninger Clinic endorses the treatment methods of Martin Jensen ?


Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Menninger website. We appreciate your thinking of us.

Dr. Geenens trained at Menninger but is not employed at Menninger.

Menninger does not endorse others' treatment methods.

Warm regards,
Marc Ramsey
Communications Specialist
Office of Public Affairs


------------------------------------------------------------

 

Re: Martin Jensen - Would like more info

Posted by JohnL on October 25, 2000, at 2:33:14

In reply to Martin Jensen - Would like more info » JohnL, posted by SLS on October 23, 2000, at 15:12:16

Sorry Scott. I was just trying to be helpful. The last thing I wanted to do was stir up some discord. That's not my purpose here. I don't see this board as a place for that.

Contrary to how you phrased it, I don't take Jensen's method as 'gospel'. Instead, I take it as an add-on tool to use with conventional psychiatry. It's not a replacement, but rather an enhancement, and by no means gospel. Jensen in his own words says that same thing...it's an enhancement, not a replacement. And on the same token, conventional psychiatry as we know it has enough mysteries and unanswered questions that I wonder if it should be viewed as gospel or not. I present what I know of Jensen's methods at this board to hopefully provide thoughtful enhancements to treatment.

My support for his methods is not based at all on his website. It is based on his book which I've studied several times over. It is based on real life experience as he played the role of consultant to my own doctor in my treatment. Due to the expense of paying two doctors, Jensen did not ultimately prescribe the medication(s) that were best for me, but he did provide the roadmap for me and my doctor to follow. He provided the insight to know how to read the clues of medication responses and reactions. I had never heard of a doctor that could do that. I was impressed. Clinical studies and scientific validation were not needed. In fact, everything that was clinically studied and validated wasn't working. Other than that, he's just had an amazing amount of success that's hard to dismiss. His success came mainly from noticing that people got well on medications that had no clinical justification, and he then went on to organize his observations into an organized format.

Menninger's response to you is interesting. If you think about it, it could mean whatever you want it to. It's one of those politically-correct-be-careful-what-you-say kind of answers. Of course, whether doctors at Menningers 'use' Jensen techniques along with their conventional psychiatry, or whether they 'endorse' Jensen's techniques are two completely different worlds. The way your question was worded was somewhat misleading a little bit of a loaded type polling question. But that's my fault for every using the word 'endorse' in the first place. Poor choice of words. My fault. Sorry.

If you want to, you could ask Jensen for the medical schools he claims are using his book. He has been very good at returning email questions. It makes no difference to me. All I know is, the stuff makes a lot of sense. But of course, one doesn't know what I'm talking about unless they've read the book themselves. While you're waiting for responses from the medical schools, you could read the book real quick. Then at least we'll be on the same page.
thanks, John

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen

Posted by JohnL on October 25, 2000, at 5:26:17

In reply to Re: Remeron + Wellbutrin - SLS, posted by JohnL on October 22, 2000, at 7:43:11

Dear Scott,
Hi again Scott. I was just thinking about this discussion. I had to chuckle. You're funny. You know why? You remind me exactly of me. I remember when I first browsed through the jensen website, I thought "What a quack", "What a ripoff", "This guy's taking advantage of mentally ill", "This guy's out to make a quick buck", "Who the hell does this mr know-it-all think he is that he thinks he has a better way", "If his methods are so cool, then how come no one else is doing it." So, I don't blame you for having a skeptical attitude. Believe me, I was even more skeptical than you! I was open minded though. I didn't really care much about the medical schools and stuff, I wanted to get the details of this method so I could tear them to pieces. I knew I would find lots of faults. I was going to rejoice in poking holes in this jensen method thing. It's just that I was, well, wrong. With my decade of conventional psychiatric study, I couldn't find any fault! Damn.

Can I ask you a personal question? Are you happy with your current treatment? If so, then the jensen method isn't for you. Are you happy but want to learn another angle to look at things? Then the jensen book is for you.

Have you ever spent $30 on something in your life and thought afterward that you had wasted your money? I have. I thought that would be the case if I bought the book, but I figured what the heck. I was wrong. Best $30 I ever spent. This from the most skeptical critic jensen could possibly have. Keep in mind, in all honesty I expected I would use the pages of the book to light fires in my woodstove after I finished reading it and critiquing it. I've read hundreds and hundreds of clinical studies at www.mentalhealth.com. That was my universe. I didn't know there was a flip side to the coin. Now I do. (Same coin though--key point)

Are you not happy with your current treatment? If so, I see two options.
1. Conventional psychiatry...go with Effexor or TCAs, because they have a slight statistical edge for efficacy and speed of action. Add Lithium, strongly supported statistically. Basically, treat the symptoms in hopes that we luckily hit upon the cause, or at least mask it. For any other medicines, flip a coin. Write different medicine names on the back of cards, shuffle the deck, and choose one at random. The odds are no better and no worse with whatever guess you make.
2. Jensen...identify what the real underlying problem is. What brain system is malfunctioning? There is a way to do this. Identify it and narrow down the guesswork of choosing medications. Treat the cause, not the symptoms. The symptoms will automatically be abolished, not just masked or partially fixed.

So if you're happy, then I would submit just forget the whole discussion, unless you're curious and want to learn something new just for grins. If you're not happy, there are two different, yet similar, roads you could take to eventually get to the same destination. One just happens to be faster and more accurate than the other in most cases, if for no other reason, because it is organized and leaves no stone unturned. With one method, we work hard. With the other, we work smart. Both get to the same place.
John

 

**John L** - HOW to get Dr. Jensen's Book?

Posted by Sandi* Pantalon on October 25, 2000, at 8:10:13

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by JohnL on October 25, 2000, at 5:26:17

Where can I get the most recent edition of Dr. Jensen's book? The one I found on Amazon.com was published in 1995...someone had mentioned last week that a new edition was forthcoming...

Thanks,

Sandi*

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen

Posted by SLS on October 25, 2000, at 19:34:33

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by JohnL on October 25, 2000, at 5:26:17

> Sorry Scott. I was just trying to be helpful.

Me too.

> The last thing I wanted to do was stir up some discord. That's not my purpose here. I don't see this board as a place for that.

John, this is exactly the place for that.

If you are so inclined to continue to tell people that it is senseless to continue an antidepressant beyond two weeks if they have felt nothing, I will be inclined to disagree with you. That will probably entail more than just my saying "I disagree."

You don't have to tell me a million times. I understood it the first time. 3-4 day trials to find the "best match".

You have taken on a huge responsibility on Psycho-Babble. People have come to look at you as the expert. You talk like you are one. You know a lot of stuff. This is not unexpected for someone who has decided to make a project of giving psychiatric advice. You have some given excellent advice and have helped a lot of people. However, as much as you think you know, you know very little. I know very little. We both demonstrate that on a regular basis. Please remember that.

I would like to know which three medical schools have added Dr. Jensen's methods to their list of treatment modalities discussed. I want to know how many more times he has dissembled. Of course, even if he is a charlatan, that still doesn't make the methods he discusses in his book invalid. The truth is, they might be. But the truth is also that a Dr. Greenens has never been employed at the Menninger Clinic. That means that the students he refers to were not students at the Menninger Clinic. The quote used on Jensen's webpage was a purposeful deception. I can't help but to call his character and motives into question. It leaves me skeptical that Jensen understands more about the brain than does the rest of the world, which is exactly what he contends with his explanations of how drugs work and what specific "circuits" in the brain are not functioning properly. They are preposterously simplistic at best (my opinion).

It is interesting that Dr. Jensen's website is down at the moment. I wanted to provide here the URLs to those pages in which he explains the "facts" about the brain.

I believe you mentioned one medical school in particular in a post many months ago. Which one was it?

We both know that there are a few instances where someone will respond quickly to an antidepressant. This is not the norm. Of course, maybe it would be if we were to give 3-4 day trials of 10 drugs over the course of a month. I still think it is a pretty cool idea. About how many people on Psycho-Babble do you know of who have had success using this specific protocol? That's about the only thing I haven't heard yet.

"I've seen Serzone go both ways. Some people have had a rough time early on, stuck it out, and saw dramatic improvement later. Usually around 6 weeks or so. The one thing that always seemed to linger though was some slight tiredness and slight dizziness. But that's common with a lot of drugs, not just Serzone"

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20001012/msgs/46950.html

By the way, why should someone give Serzone six weeks?


- Scott

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen

Posted by stjames on October 26, 2000, at 3:30:30

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by SLS on October 25, 2000, at 19:34:33

Of course, maybe it would be if we were to give 3-4 day trials of 10 drugs over the course of a month. I still think it is a pretty cool idea. About how many people on
Psycho-Babble do you know of who have had success using this specific protocol? That's about the only thing I haven't heard yet.

James here....

The only way this would work, to me, would be if you were trying
meds that were chemically simular. The SSRI's are not, only the TCA's are.
I've switched from TCA to TCA, several different ones. A few days of adjustment
the the AD effect kicks in. Otherwise it is back to 4-6 weeks.

james

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen

Posted by JohnL on October 26, 2000, at 6:20:44

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by SLS on October 25, 2000, at 19:34:33

Scott,
Ok, I agree to disagree, since we're both trying to do so in a friendly manner. I like that. Since the jensen method does actually make a lot of sense...to those of us who have read the book...I welcome critique and rebuttals. After all, every critique and rebuttal aimed at me is most likely one I had myself before I read the book! :-)

One area I disagree with jensen is the 5 day trial thing. I really like 2 weeks better. That's because it meshes with conventional psychiatry. Even conventional psychiatry agrees that IF a medicine is going to work, it should show some sign within two weeks. As I browsed through www.mentalhealth.com studying scientific data, most of the studies say Effexor, and tricyclics, work in as little as 4 days to 2 weeks, but full effects aren't felt until 4 weeks. I think a 2 week trial period is more realistic than 5 days. It also is a closer match to conventional psychiatry.

Should someone stay on a medicine past 2 weeks if there is zero improvement? Personally I don't think so. I think they should try another one. There is almost always a favorite, but the patient will never discover a favorite without a chance to do comparisons. I think it is extremely important that if it looks like someone might be on medication for a long time, we want to be very sure they are on the best one for them. Comparisons is the only way to do that. Of course, if someone has a real good response to a med within 2 weeks, then the whole search ends right there. Mission accomplished.

As to the Serzone example, can a medication work if it hasn't worked in 2 weeks? Of course it can. It's up to each individual to decide if they want to stick it out. But if they don't want to, there are so many other fine choices. Our ancestors had no choice. We do. This is important....jensen himself says if his method isn't working, then he reverts to conventional psychiatry....if conventional methods aren't working then he reverts to his method. He uses both interchangeably or mixed. Each patient is different. But that's the whole point of the jensen thing...each patient is different. This is especially evident when we consider that many of his toughest patients were cured with drugs that had no clinical justification.

When jensen's website is up again, you might email him questions you may have. He's good at answering emails. I would be curious to see what info he provides you too. Not that it would change my opinions or anything, but just curious. He really is...and I can't state this with enough emphasis...a real authentic expert on brain chemistry. This man understands brain chemistry and medicine reactions to an amazing degree. Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil as just one example. Do you know which is better statistically if suicide has been attempted once? Twice? How does each affect dopamine, if at all? How are Prozac and Celexa actually very similar (besides being SSRIs)? Is Tenuate a substitute for Wellbutrin? If so, why? If not, why not? Ionamine for ADD? Yes? No? Why? Why not? Statistically, which is better across a broad spectrum of illnesses...Lithium? Depakote? Tegretol? Which is 2nd place? Which is least effective? On and on...it's endless! Detailed knowledge like this can make all the difference in the world. Even if Jensen didn't have any particular method, just his grasp of medication and chemistry knowledge is awe inspiring.

John

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen(For John L.)

Posted by David Newhouse on October 26, 2000, at 9:13:56

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by JohnL on October 26, 2000, at 6:20:44

>John,
You wrote me about two weeks ago regarding Dr. Jensens book. You said you could help find some pharm. sights that I would be able to order from. Well, I've got the book and I'm ready to roll. Write back if you get a chance.

Thanks,

Dave
Scott,
> Ok, I agree to disagree, since we're both trying to do so in a friendly manner. I like that. Since the jensen method does actually make a lot of sense...to those of us who have read the book...I welcome critique and rebuttals. After all, every critique and rebuttal aimed at me is most likely one I had myself before I read the book! :-)
>
> One area I disagree with jensen is the 5 day trial thing. I really like 2 weeks better. That's because it meshes with conventional psychiatry. Even conventional psychiatry agrees that IF a medicine is going to work, it should show some sign within two weeks. As I browsed through www.mentalhealth.com studying scientific data, most of the studies say Effexor, and tricyclics, work in as little as 4 days to 2 weeks, but full effects aren't felt until 4 weeks. I think a 2 week trial period is more realistic than 5 days. It also is a closer match to conventional psychiatry.
>
> Should someone stay on a medicine past 2 weeks if there is zero improvement? Personally I don't think so. I think they should try another one. There is almost always a favorite, but the patient will never discover a favorite without a chance to do comparisons. I think it is extremely important that if it looks like someone might be on medication for a long time, we want to be very sure they are on the best one for them. Comparisons is the only way to do that. Of course, if someone has a real good response to a med within 2 weeks, then the whole search ends right there. Mission accomplished.
>
> As to the Serzone example, can a medication work if it hasn't worked in 2 weeks? Of course it can. It's up to each individual to decide if they want to stick it out. But if they don't want to, there are so many other fine choices. Our ancestors had no choice. We do. This is important....jensen himself says if his method isn't working, then he reverts to conventional psychiatry....if conventional methods aren't working then he reverts to his method. He uses both interchangeably or mixed. Each patient is different. But that's the whole point of the jensen thing...each patient is different. This is especially evident when we consider that many of his toughest patients were cured with drugs that had no clinical justification.
>
> When jensen's website is up again, you might email him questions you may have. He's good at answering emails. I would be curious to see what info he provides you too. Not that it would change my opinions or anything, but just curious. He really is...and I can't state this with enough emphasis...a real authentic expert on brain chemistry. This man understands brain chemistry and medicine reactions to an amazing degree. Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil as just one example. Do you know which is better statistically if suicide has been attempted once? Twice? How does each affect dopamine, if at all? How are Prozac and Celexa actually very similar (besides being SSRIs)? Is Tenuate a substitute for Wellbutrin? If so, why? If not, why not? Ionamine for ADD? Yes? No? Why? Why not? Statistically, which is better across a broad spectrum of illnesses...Lithium? Depakote? Tegretol? Which is 2nd place? Which is least effective? On and on...it's endless! Detailed knowledge like this can make all the difference in the world. Even if Jensen didn't have any particular method, just his grasp of medication and chemistry knowledge is awe inspiring.
>
> John

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, JohnL, Scott

Posted by TomV on October 26, 2000, at 10:53:01

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by JohnL on October 26, 2000, at 6:20:44

>We need more debate just like this. Bring it on Babblers!

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen » SLS

Posted by MichaelF on October 26, 2000, at 12:13:55

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by SLS on October 25, 2000, at 19:34:33

Scott,

I have been following this debate with interest as I myself have been under Jensen's care.

I was first "introduced" to Jensen during a television interview. I was intrigued enough to order his book.

I must admit that if I had seen his website, I probably would have written him off and not bothered with his book. I'm glad I did not see that site!

I am enjoying this debate and I am sure others are as well. The only thing I would like to add at this point is you really should try to get a copy of his book. I believe it will make for some interesting reading and would serve to make this debate all the more intriguing!

All the best,

Michael

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen(For John L.)

Posted by JohnL on October 26, 2000, at 16:41:42

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen(For John L.), posted by David Newhouse on October 26, 2000, at 9:13:56

David,
So you're ready to rock 'n' roll, eh? Cool. You're on the road to gettin' better, brotha.

Seriously, try reading the book all the way through. Let some of it sink in. Then read some more a second time, at random. I think what you will find is little tid bits here and there will jump out at you and you'll say, "hey, I think that applies to me". Try to get a feel for what chemistry you think you need to look at. You'll be able to start making sense out of your earlier medications. Pieces of the puzzle will start to come together. There is so much in the book though, and so many important details, that I think it is important to reread it again and again until it really sinks in.

When you have a good grasp on the situation and think you know where you want to go, then there are places to get the medications. For example, do you think you need to look at the serotonin chemistry? If so, you'll probably want to compare any of Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, Effexor. Or maybe its NE/dopamine instead. If so, you'll want to try Wellbutrin or a tricyclic. After reading the book you think maybe it's electrical instability instead? (just an example) If so, then you'll want to get your hands on Tegretol, Depakote, and Lithium, and maybe Phenytoin. Maybe an antipsychotic? They're all available. You could order just small amounts of each, sample them and see how it goes. Some will be lousy right from the get-go, and you'll know it. Some will be pretty cool, right from the get-go, and you'll know it. Then, with the book, you can make sense of it all and know what to do.

John

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen

Posted by SLS on October 26, 2000, at 17:23:33

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen » SLS, posted by MichaelF on October 26, 2000, at 12:13:55

> Scott,
>
> I have been following this debate with interest as I myself have been under Jensen's care.
>
> I was first "introduced" to Jensen during a television interview. I was intrigued enough to order his book.
>
> I must admit that if I had seen his website, I probably would have written him off and not bothered with his book. I'm glad I did not see that site!
>
> I am enjoying this debate and I am sure others are as well. The only thing I would like to add at this point is you really should try to get a copy of his book. I believe it will make for some interesting reading and would serve to make this debate all the more intriguing!
>
> All the best,
>
> Michael


I would just like to extend to everyone my appreciation for the affirmation that matters such as the one being discussed here is a healthy and desirable exercise on Psycho-Babble.

I am embarrassed whenever I begin to discuss Dr. Martin Jensen's book because I have never read it. Unfortunately, I don't have the mental capacity to read such a volume. My only 2 exposures to Jensen's ideas at this point is the months and months of reading JohnL's posts, which have been detailed enough to convey most of Jensen's tenets and explanations, and the examples and explanations detailed by Dr. Jensen that can be found on his website.

I am just short of infuriated that someone talks about the way the brain works as if it were well established fact, when in *fact* almost none of what I have read about Jensen's promulgations has any basis in the current body of knowledge and understanding of the world's cumulative investigation into neuroscience. In other words, it doesn't matter to me how much detail I am missing by not reading his book. His suppositions are wrong to begin with.

Unless JohnL or anyone else is prepared to discuss and debate things like the details of how lithium affects the cascade of postsynaptic second-messenger events through adenylate-cyclase regulated protein-kinase, including c-FOS directed gene transcription, its measurement by assaying mRNA and the resulting changes in membrane-bound g-proteins, I don't feel any obligation to at this point justify why Jensen's simple "circuit" models are ludicrous.

I also don't need to read in its entirety the treatises of Ptolemy and understand his brilliant model of planetary epicycles to explain retrogade motion to know that his supposition that the Earth is the center of the solar system was off by 93 million miles - the distance to the sun.

The only thing that matters is if conducting 3-4 day trials of antidepressants yields successful long-term remission. This is an exciting idea and would be one of greatest breakthroughs in the treatment of affective disorders were it true.

JohnL, you don't have the respect for the expertise and brilliance of Dr. Jensen that you proclaim. You have exercised your right to make changes in his 3-4 day protocol. Don't you think that as a scientist, Dr. Jensen would base such a protocol on many different methods to verify his hypothesis? Don't you think that he has concluded 3-4 days are enough based upon years of clinical investigation and parsing of statistics? When you first introduced Dr. Jensen to us, you said that if a drug were a "good match", it would produce an improvement of some sort within 3-4 days. Such a response would warrant adding the drug to a list of potentially successful treatments. The object is to find the "best match". Many of us took exception to this and described the currently accepted notion that in most cases, at best, improvements take about two to begin to show themselves. Now, you have increased from 3-4 days to 1 week to 2 weeks. Either you agree with Jensen or you don't. Right now, you don't.

Now, I want to take advantage of what might be an unrelated coincidence and betray my unjustifiably inflated ego. I'm sure I'm wrong, but let me fantasize for a few days here. After a year of www.drjensen.com being available on the web, it all of a sudden goes offline two days after I wrote my letter, which was more than a one-sentence question by the way. It's probably nothing.

I still want to know the names of the three medical schools that are supposed to include Jensen in their curriculum. JohnL, is this information available in his book?

- Scott

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen(For John L.)

Posted by SLS on October 26, 2000, at 18:39:02

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen(For John L.), posted by JohnL on October 26, 2000, at 16:41:42

Dear John,

Please forgive me if I have misread this post. Are you encouraging someone to appropriate drugs from overseas without a prescription and describe how to self-medicate and perform experiments on themselves? No physician?

Wow.


- Scott

 

I found it myself ;)...the OLD edition, anyway...

Posted by Sandi* Pantalon on October 26, 2000, at 18:57:37

In reply to **John L** - HOW to get Dr. Jensen's Book?, posted by Sandi* Pantalon on October 25, 2000, at 8:10:13


...of Dr. Martin L. Jensen's book, "The Successful Treatment of Brain Chemical Imbalance", ISBN 0787205915 - Copyright 1996 -
Softcover Edition, at http://www.ecampus.com, for
$21.60 USD with FREE Standard Shipping in the Continental US.

I have not been able to access Dr. Jensen's website, http://www.drjensen.com, to ask about a forthcoming edition.

Just thought those interested in this book might want to know of a lower price :)

Sandi*

 

Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen - Proofreading

Posted by SLS on October 26, 2000, at 20:04:50

In reply to Re: SLS...more psychiatry vs jensen, posted by SLS on October 26, 2000, at 17:23:33

Sorry... Important correction:

I forgot to place the word "weeks" in a very important place.

"...described the currently accepted notion that in most cases, at best, improvements take about two WEEKS to begin to show themselves.


- Scott


> JohnL, you don't have the respect for the expertise and brilliance of Dr. Jensen that you proclaim. You have exercised your right to make changes in his 3-4 day protocol. Don't you think that as a scientist, Dr. Jensen would base such a protocol on many different methods to verify his hypothesis? Don't you think that he has concluded 3-4 days are enough based upon years of clinical investigation and parsing of statistics? When you first introduced Dr. Jensen to us, you said that if a drug were a "good match", it would produce an improvement of some sort within 3-4 days. Such a response would warrant adding the drug to a list of potentially successful treatments. The object is to find the "best match". Many of us took exception to this and described the currently accepted notion that in most cases, at best, improvements take about two WEEKS to begin to show themselves. Now, you have increased from 3-4 days to 1 week to 2 weeks. Either you agree with Jensen or you don't. Right now, you don't.


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