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Re: Free Will

Posted by rayww on April 17, 2004, at 11:37:11

In reply to Re: Free Will rayww, posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 1:36:13

> > A phrase here or there read out of context can give a personal meaning to a private question. If you notice, God has slipped in a lot of those "out of context" verses in the middle of a dialogue, that are placed there just for those who are searching for answers. I wish everyone could understand this. Jude 1:6

<<<<I was thinking of the dual meaning of scripture, specifically parables. But, as I have been studying the tiny one-chapter book of Jude, the half brother of Jesus, that is placed right before the book of Revelation, I must admit I was wrong in using that as an example. At first it seemed to me that verse 6 was out of context because he suddenly began talking about the pre-existance.

Jude was talking to members of the church who had already gone through the process of believing and baptism. He is speaking of subjects that his congregation is well versed in, probably quoting from texts written by other prophets. (there was no Bible as we have it, but they certainly had books of the prophets) In my opinion (IMHO) What Jude is alluding to in verse 6 is "why should the wicked and ungodly think they shall escape damnation when God even cast one third of the hosts of heaven out for their rebellion? (2Peter 2:1-9 also)

Those to whom Jude was speaking already knew about pre-existance, the war in heaven, and the probationary nature of this earth life. Here is a Biblical explanation of some of the phrases used in Jude 1:6:

"The angels which kept not thier first estate" (Revelations 12:1-17)

"everlasting chains" Lucifer and one third of all the hosts of heaven are damned forever. For them there is no earth life, only darkness to all eternity. see Heb 12:9-10

Revelations 20 certainly supports this idea of Jude's that how we live our lives matters.

> Maybe it is the hour, but I am trying really hard to understand what you are saying here and I just don't follow you. Where has God slipped in anything "out of context"? After all of my Bible studying, I sincerely can't come up with one thing that God "slipped in" that didn't pertain to the context of the Word. Could you give me an example(s)of one? I know that Jesus at times seemed to say things that weren't clear to those who were hearing. Is that what you mean?

<<<<<I was careless in my choice of words, and like you, I have never seen a verse yet that was not in perfect context, poetic or otherwise, with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is dual meaning and application for every generation in parable, and in some prophesy, not to mention personal messages that come to us when we open our scriptures to find much needed counsel from the Lord. Every prophet saw our day and prophesied about it. It must be pretty important, and so must we.
>If I remember correctly, you are a Mormon, right? I don't know what other books Mormons study, but are you possibly referring to a book other than the Bible?

I write from my own Mormon understanding, and like Jude, as he was teaching believers who already had a broad understanding of the early writings of the Prophets, I also read the writings of Abraham and Moses, and our other books, and look forward to reading ancient texts from sources such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. though I haven't yet. Each book gives light and understanding to the other, when read together. I'm not trying to be confrontational either. I respect your views about the Bible, and revere all who have preserved it.

> I really am not trying to be confrontational. I am honestly just trying to understand what you are saying. And could you explain your reference to Jude 6?

I tried to explain it, but not as an out of context verse. I have seen the light, and repent. Please forgive my thoughtless remark.

> > You have brought up a very interesting topic, and one that we should all study and pray about. Man, I wish I could be an ensign to someone. Yes, that's what I want to be when I grow up. An ensign. Someone who helps others find and discover Jesus Christ.
>The term "ensign" in reference to Christian life is new to me. Is "ensign" your religion's term for a mentor?

I don't know what my religion's term is for it, but my own opinion is that it is like a flag, or a light, someone to point the way to happiness. Just me rambling again. I tend to do that sometimes :)

I wonder if the word (Bible) can ever get in the way of Christ. I mean, do most believers use the word to give them a testimony of Jesus Christ, or does it ever stop there? Is it possible to worship the Bible and miss the mark of Christ? Or the cross? Is Christ your Lord and Savior because you know him, or because you know about him? I'm not sure if I was able to ask what it is I am truly wondering about or not. If there was no Bible could you still believe in Christ, just because He is, and God hears and answers prayers, etc? Sorry for asking such a dumb question.

And Bob will say, ""well, if you are sorry and you know it was a dumb question, then why did you ask it??? Duh...




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