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Re: How to justify pagan roots?

Posted by Simus on January 15, 2004, at 0:13:37

In reply to Re: How to justify pagan roots? Simus, posted by femlite on January 14, 2004, at 11:25:57

> You obviously are devoted to God and his word.
> Sorry to miss your point.

I apologize. It's probably my fault. I will try once again to clairfy myself.

> I think most Christian sects would share your feeling that the new covenant supercedes the old. The is little debte on that point.
>
> The original points of this thread were, who is Christ and how do we know he isnt a myth along the lines of Orisis, or just another creation myth. Somehow his place in the OT got into the disscussion.

How can you debate who Christ is and whether He is just another creation myth and exclude any part of the Bible, Old or New Testament? For me, the Old Testament is not only a wonderful historical document, but it is truth. For the sake of this debate though, I will include a portion of a writing by a respected friend of mine, who knows more about historical records than I do.

"First, there was Josephus. Josephus was a Jewish historian who lived circa 37-100 AD. His Hebrew name was Joseph ben Mattathias, and he received an excellent education in Jerusalem. After leading a failed revolt of the Jewish forces against Rome, Josephus was captured and became a Roman citizen. He served as pensioner of several Flavian emperors and is most widely known by the name he then acquired, Flavius Josephus.

Around 93 AD., Josephus published Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jews in twenty books. Though not a prominent subject of his writing, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus' brother James are all mentioned in Jewish Antiquities. This represents the earliest historical record of Jesus from someone who was a professional historian. He wrote,

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders."

Several Roman historians also referred to Jesus Christ. Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian who lived circa 56-120 AD. He is believed to have been born in France or Gaul into a provincial aristocratic family. He became a senator, a consul, and eventually governor of Asia.

Tacitus wrote at least four historic treatises. Around 115 AD, he published Annals in which he explicitly states that Nero prosecuted the Christians in order to draw attention away from himself for Rome's devastating fire of 64 AD. In that context, he mentions Christus who was put to death by Pontius Pilate. He wrote:

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus (Latin for Christ), from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome..."

For more about the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, check this out: Click here: The Historical Jesus (or: http://home.houston.rr.com/apologia/sec6p2.htm).

What's more than the evidence for his existence, there is ample evidence for His resurrection. To read an article about this go here: http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

People have tried to dismiss the claims of Jesus for centuries by saying, "how do we know He even existed." But historians don't question His existence. He was a historical person. He existed. He lived, & He died. He also made some extraordinary claims about Who He was (God), & what He came to do (provide salvation - a way back to God). To dismiss that He even existed is to attempt to ignore His claims, & the response that they imply each of us has to make.

You can respond by believing Him & following Him, or you can respond by not believing Him & rejecting Him. But to say that He never existed is to be ignorant of the historical facts of reality."

>
>I think most trinitarian Christians would agree, that as God is one, though the jews did not know Christ personally,in the old testement, He was nonetheless there.
>
> The Jews do still have a special role to play in the Gods story. It is believed they will be given special faith at the end. (i really should site the source, sorry).

Gods story? Do you mean in the Bible, or are you referring to some mythology? Yes, the source of "it is believed" would have helped. It is well documented in the Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments, what God's wonderful plan for His chosen people is, but I am not sure this thread is open to receiving the Bible as valid proof. And as much as I am tempted, I won't follow up on this issue by any means, because I would be guilty of getting off the point of this thread again.


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poster:Simus thread:297550
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040113/msgs/300991.html