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re: satori and sunyata

Posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 15:58:50

In reply to re: your two new posts Jimster lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 13:30:38

hi habby!

> WOW!!! Oh my, have those responses given me food for typing! I'm so glad I'm back in the saddle again, energy wise, to do so! >

and i am so glad that you are feeling better! (!!)

... in fact i value your feeling better so much that i approach this discusssion with care to not degrade your improvement .... which i am making an issue (before i make an issuse of it) because your recovery (may i call it this?) can be an object of this discussion ... and i would not want your turn around jeopardized ...

... so i'm going to depend on you to tell me when to cool it, if this feels adverse to you .. ... i always do that anyway, but i felt the need to make it explicit ...

> Give me a day or so to chew it over and hopefully clearly respond. >

the value here is great enough that any investment pays off with high interest in return ... ... please be at your leisure ... ... ... all in the fullness of time ...

... i remain as morally opposed to being in a hurry as ever ... ... it's against my religion

> My resistance to talking of my husband's "persistent delusion" has changed. Thanks for that. >

you're welcome ... ... with deepest respects and fondest regards for him!

> Is there a difference between shunyata and satori - or is it just two different schools of Bhuddism? Semantics? >

i always feel compelled to make extensive disclaimers whenever i am invited to go beyond my level of expertise, Which we just did there ... ... by a long shot i'd have to say!

as empiricists, we claim no knowledge of things we have not experienced for ourselves ... ... so you can get me to say , "i don't know", because i do not ... ...
then
... ... from what i have studied ... i'd say ...

satori is a sudden flash-like experience of enlightenment which was defined from within zen, (but which must be a universal element) wherein, classically, the absurd and/or banal of some everyday experience triggers a breakthrough of cosmic insight in which total enlightenment can happen instantaneously .... .... this experience may be of something ineffable ...

sunyata is some _________ ineffable.

i have hesitated to use it in a sentence at all ...
... it is used in order to discuss things in conventional terms so that we may speak about things' "total absence of a substantial permanent autonomous self-nature" ... ... which is equivalent to categorical repudiation of absolutism ...
... the challenge is to have a term for this without it invoking its self-nature (ego) or becoming trasformed into an absolute which it seeks to disavow ... ... "sunyata", emptiness, is the term that was chosen ...
... because our mental categorization mechanisms are always dissecting experience into its dualities, we are weak to fall into expecting sunyayta to be thing-like ... a concept or a precept ... something our mind may objectitfy ... something it may abstract ...

... so essentially "sunyata" disqualifies itself as a noun or direct object of a sentence ...

... so, many times, giving up on or the failure of cognitive or intellectual or mental effort is precursor to ... ...

well, to answer your question:
satori can be the experience of sunayta
... in conventional terms that can't be too wrong, i don't believe ...

and once the cognitive/intellectual apparatus can get out of the way, it (may) become(s) possible to suddenly see beyond the veil of the cosmoc illusion ...

... and it does strike me that this may have happened to you ...

... which we may feel better about just crediting it to shear spontaneity ...
... or ... may we consider the possibility of your neurological condition as bringing on this ? ... ... this is the consideration i hesistated to speak, least it hurt you ....

here for discussions sake we have ...
your emptiness experience ....
your improvement/recovery from your recent malaise....
your neurological condition ...

we Could start asigning causes and effects and we may expect what others would assign ...

and in so far as that may benefit you, by invoking conventinal terms and analysis to gain deeper understanding, this is a good thing ...

yet when seen in light of the co-originating of the mutual interdependence of all of these things ... arising together ...

this is in the same way that my relationship with my son not only defines him as our son, but it defines me as his father ... and although it is conventioanlly obvious that, i as his father caused him to be our son, it is just as true that he, by being our son, caused me to be his father ... robeert santiago is 4 and a half and for fun i tell him that he made me a daddy because without him i wouldn't be a daddy ... ... he doesn't believe me because he rejects notions of me as not daddy, bless him ....

all existent things have this relationship and it is this relationship that is sunyata ... because brahma is not sunyata and ishwara is not sunyata since sunyata is not a thing, but the interrelatedness of these things to each other thing ...

the old ontological debates about how many things the world is made of? monism, dualism, the 4 elements, nihilism ... it it one thing or 2 or just these 4 or more ... ... zero things?

what if everything and every single thing were each individually unique?
what if every existent thing was uniquely its own, such that the number of things the world is made of turns out to the the number of things there are ?

such totally unique things would have no way to interact or relate because each would be so totally different from everything else
EXCEPT
for their uniqueness ...
... ... what every object would have in "common" would be that they are unique ... and they would relate on the basis of their ... inability to relate ...

... i'm depending on the value of the saying that no wise thing can be said without stating it as a paradox here ...

> Be back soon,
> Hab

take all the time you like ...
.... .... .... seems like i can hear manjushri laughing at my exposition here ... ... he has a decent sense of humor ... i'm just kidding you, manjushri, man !!

hello,
~ jim


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poster:lil' jimi thread:251864
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20030530/msgs/253616.html