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Re: Suboxone???? Is it only for Opiates or an Ad Too?

Posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 21:29:43

In reply to Re: Suboxone???? Is it only for Opiates or an Ad Too?, posted by rgb on May 28, 2008, at 17:16:08

> The thing with mu agonism is that it tends to solve just about any problem (with the possible exception of itching and nodding). It's all too easy to tell oneself that some specific therapeutic effect is happening... Your observations are easily explained by mild euphoria and the resulting effect of "Wow, it's doing something! Now I can do all these things I'd been too depressed to do!".

I know what you mean - for example, it took me much longer than it should have to see the truth about the efficacy of the combination of phenylethylamine (PEA) and selegiline. Fortunately, the experience wasn't a complete waste of resources, as it certainly taught me a number of useful lessons, including the fact that positive feelings do not necessarily translate to positive results.

By the way, the addition of buprenorphine (BUP) to my regimen hasn't produced anything that might qualify as mild euphoria as far as I'm concerned, although my standards may be unusually demanding, as I don't consider myself to ever have experienced anything close to euphoria at any time during my 30-year experience of what they call "life".

> Just food for thought; I'm not to judge what is right for you. Neither am I saying that there is no such thing as endogenous opioid deficiency, just that a profound feeling of safety and protection happens to be pretty nice when the rest of one's life isn't so solacing :)

I imagine that it would be, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by bringing it to my attention.

> Not that there's anything wrong with euphoria; the question is what you'll do if it turns out that it doesn't last after you're already neurophysiologically and/or psychologically dependent on it.

Although I'm not familiar with euphoria, I've had excellent results with a number of drugs to which tolerance always developed rapidly - sometimes to the point of complete loss of benefit, and sometimes with substantial effects remaining. Each time, I handled the problem by moving on to further research - and pursue - potential solutions to my problems. There was really little else that I could do.

So far, I've been able to quit all drugs I've had reasons to quit, and to do so abruptly. Perhaps some day I will encounter persistent and troublesome withdrawal symptoms of a medication (or dietary supplement, or whatever else may be applicable) that I'm trying to stop, but that would merely be one more issue to be dealt with, perhaps by continuation of the drug indefinitely or by treating the withdrawal symptoms with other agents. I see no reason to waste my time worrying about such hypothetical matters - whatever will be, will be.

> Incidentally, the prospect of this is what prevented me from trying long-term tramadol (or other low-potency opioids), which used to make a night-day difference for me on days of sporadic use.

Indeed, tramadol may not be the best treatment for your problems, and even if it really is, your problems may not be serious enough to justify any risk that treatment with tramadol may involve - the decision is yours. I, however, have little to lose and much to gain by testing BUP.

> Yes, the kappa antagonism thing is intriguing and makes bupe somewhat special, but IMHO you shouldn't let this distract you from the above mu agonism thing (partial or not, to my knowledge it's plenty for the non-tolerant user).

In my opinion, kappa-antagonism is the salient feature of BUP, and the property that makes the drug the treatment of choice at this point, especially since I found codeine (and probably others, if I were to try) to be more mood-brightening, relaxing, anxiolytic and generally more satisfying, as well as less prone to causing some adverse effects (notably nausea).

Furthermore, my use of BUP should be seen in the proper context - as part of a regimen of drugs. I'm not expecting BUP to solve all my problems on its own, but I'm hoping that it will synergise with the other (primarily dopaminergic) components of my cocktail and thus contribute to better control of the symptoms.

> Best of luck,

Thank you, and good luck yourself in finding safe treatments (or perhaps gathering the courage to employ tramadol on a more regular basis).




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