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Re: beta carbolines to reverse benzo cognitive pro

Posted by linkadge on August 10, 2007, at 14:59:20

In reply to Re: beta carbolines to reverse benzo cognitive pro linkadge, posted by Quintal on August 10, 2007, at 13:04:15

>I feel the operant word here is 'too'.

Alright, ha ha. I major in math and physics; bad spelling/grammer is a prerequisite.

>I'm not sure where that statement came from, but >I'm sure I didn't say it. There are a huge >number objective scientific studies from a wide >variety of sources demonstrating amnesia and >cognitive impairment at therapeutic doses of >benzodiazepines.

Yes, but only a small number of them are assesing the potential for such side effects to be long term / permanant. The only side effects are somewhat proven to occur in some patients are short term cognative problems which really don't concern me.

The assertion that benzodiazapines cause permanant brain damage is intrinsically a very challenging one to establish. Comorbidity, comedication, multiple substance use / alchohol use. Secondary effects such as masking of vitamin deficiancies. Asessment times (ie sufficiant time would need to be given for a complete withdrawl).

A more accurate assesment would compare long term benzodiazapine users with drug naive age matched individuals with an anxiety disorder. Ie. to asess the effect of an anxiety disorder itself on cognition. The effect of a stressfull lifestyle would also need to be accounted for. Stressfull lifestyles are linked to cognative decline!

As a side example, studies designed to asess the effect of long term neuroleptic use on cognition are generally difficult seeing as neuroleptic naive age matched (disease duration matched) schizophrenics also generally show cognative disturbance. (There is a progressive loss of grey matter in schizophrenia with or without treatment)

>The fact that you can find a handful to the >contrary based on some esoteric mechanism or >medical condition doesn't alter the conclusions >of the overwhelming body of scientific evidence. >You can't prove a negative.

I still don't see what you are getting at. The notion that long term benzo use leads to permanant cognative decline is a relativly recent one. Only time will help to clarify the incidence / validity of such preliminary claims.

>A *lot* of studies support the fact that >benzodiazepines cause significant amnesia and >cognitive impairment at therapeutic doses. When >a finding is easily replicated by independant >researchers around the word this forms evidence. >Collecting these studies is easy as apple->gathering in the fall, they being so plentiful. >To find studies to the contrary you need to go >cherry-picking.

Hundreds of studies have established the possability that SSRIs can cause sexual side effects. That doesn't mean everybody gets them.
I don't see what you are trying to say(?).

>I'm jumping on no bandwagons link. I'm inclined >to ask you to read that statement, reflect on it >a while, then review my post further up this >thread containing the amnesia studies.

I don't even think we are arguing the same thing here. I agreed with you in the beginning that benzodiazapines *can* cause cognative side effects or else I woudn't have started this thread!!?

>I disagree with this. I too went to college and >got decent grades, top of my class in biology, >passed my driving test etc. Still, I was >significantly impaired compared to my >unmedicated state.

Thats great. You cannot proove however, that every individual who takes a benzodiazapine looses cognative capacity. Infact just the existence of one study suggesting that benzdiazapine use can improve cognative performance makes it impossable to prove a totality.

The doses of benzodiazapine I use to help anxiety, are in the magnitude of those used in this study.





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