Psycho-Babble Social Thread 1107862

Shown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

@Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 12, 2020, at 15:54:51

Hi Alexandra,

i only have space for one extra Machine and i wonder if it should be a lower back machine or a hamstring machine. I squat and deadlift every time i exercise. I do Front Squats and romanian deadlifts in one day and high bar squats and regular deadlifts in another day. I dont want to get an imbalance between the quads and the hamstrings. I fear that my hams become too weak for the quads.

On the other hand i have heard that deadlifts dont train the lumbar extensors very well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27677913

What do you think? How can i tackle both these issues at home with space only for one machine?

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2020, at 22:04:16

In reply to @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by Lamdage22 on January 12, 2020, at 15:54:51

What about a glute-ham-raise?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwaCdA9qFNI

You can do back extensions on it.

You can also hold your back angle constant and close your knee angle using your glutes / hamstrings.

When you get really good you can sort of put the both of them together...


 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2020, at 22:16:05

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2020, at 22:04:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwaCdA9qFNI

Did you notice what that guy probably needs to do a little more of?

Abdominals.

I know things come and go in trends and round-abouts. Sometimes the thing to do is the thing you haven't been doing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDx1xfSobG4

I know he is focused on the aesthetic aspect of it, but I am thinking about the muscle lining the anterior parts of the spine. About contracting them (alongside with contraction of the spinal erectors) on ALL the exercises (front squats, deadlifts etc).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoikoUEI8U

Anterior core.

Seems to be something neglected by many.

Myself, particularly.

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 14, 2020, at 10:28:07

In reply to @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by Lamdage22 on January 12, 2020, at 15:54:51

On the bodybuilding board, they told me that the Deadlift hits the Hamstrings as much as Squats hit the Quads. It comes down to correct technique. I have an appointment at the local Crossfit gym to check just that.

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2020, at 23:07:57

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by Lamdage22 on January 14, 2020, at 10:28:07

I guess so. It usually depends on how you, particularly, do the movement.

I can usually feel in my muscles which of them have been the main movers, and which of them I have trouble activating, even, because they mostly just seem to be along for the ride.

I remember Ripptoe saying something about how you should brace your abs before you squat. But none of his athletes seem to do that. They all seem quite lordotic, to me, especially as they get older, but younger ones, too. Having been told to 'brace your lumbar arch hard' they ended up jamming it into hyper-extension rather than using their TVA or whatever to hold their core tight.

I think maybe it is an age thing, too, as the ligaments lose some of their elastic recoil as you get a bit older so you need to rely on muscular development to hold your spine in a good alignment.

Enjoy your crossfit! I hope you get some helpful tips.

I actually am missing the gym, rather, much to my surprise. I miss group fitness classes. Just turn my mind off and follow along...

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2020, at 0:24:24

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by Lamdage22 on January 14, 2020, at 10:28:07

It is hard to quantify 'as much' (or whether they need 'as much').

It can be good to have another set of eyes. Particularly because sometimes you can *see* that an area is the weakest link in development.

Otherwise you could film yourself and try looking at yourself objectively.

To see if your hamstrings / quads look sort of proportionately developed or whether there is any other obvious / noticable lagging part, I mean.

It can be hard to be objective about oneself.

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:17:22

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2020, at 0:24:24

https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-master-the-reverse-hyper

It just seems to me that none of that is curling like a ball...

Curling up all foetal...

Really engaging and contracting anterior core...

At all...

In a way that leaves that plane / movement / exercise sorely neglected. To make it the hit of the new season????

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:22:56

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:17:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqhRX0qJiSs

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 30, 2020, at 4:23:47

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:17:22

That is pretty cool! When doing ab exercises, do you need to curl up, too? I would think so. I am doing crunches on a bench without much curling. That is more of an isometric exercise without curling right and thus its not as effective right? Also deadlifts are also isometric for the lumbar extensors.

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:36:02

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:22:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyf_gfX6QSE

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:47:40

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by Lamdage22 on January 30, 2020, at 4:23:47

Yeah,

A while back there was some conversation about whether planks (for example -- but you could think about any exercise needing 'neutral spine') should be done in slight hyper-extension (as we have always been taught to 'set your back into a safe position') or...

In slight flexion.

So... To contract your abdominals into 'crunch' position on your planks -- instead of hanging off of your hinged hyperextended lumbar position...

I think it might be that certain things become in fashion. Then they are pursued to the exclusion of all else. So then the next 'in fashion' thing that everyone is missing is actually very predictable.

I think we have focused on fixing the lumbar spine in hyperextension for a while, now. And getting used to that has allowed us to move more weights.

I think that we 'pooh pooed' and 'rubbish rubbished' the folk for their silly stomach crunches for quite some time (and lets face it the way many of the folk chose to do them was not very effectual e.g., hinging from their hip flexors....

I think it is genuinely the case that not many people have strong anterior cores anymore.

I am a girl with wide hips and meaty thighs. That makes sit-ups easy. True story. My weight is carried around my middle. But still, I swing from my hip flexors rather than doing my abdominals.

People used to do things like hanging leg raises. Actually hanging from pull up bars and lifing their legs up in the air. Of course it helps to have beefy shoulders and smaller hips.. But, whatever... There are easier and harder progressions for all of the things... Point is that people don't seem to initiate the muscular sequence / recuritment pattern properliy anymore where it is an abdominal rather than hip flexor exaercise...

Let me try and find...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or7KtIgxchE

Don't get me wrong.. I cannot do the first progression

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 5:10:47

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 4:47:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS5B0MmLgZs

I don't know how these are for guys -- But they are super-hard for girls (with lots of weight carried around the thighs / hips)

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 5:22:58

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 5:10:47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqnRuaKk-Uc

welcome to the circus

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 5:33:04

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 5:22:58

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BuqQRLHCC8

Yes, the circus.

you know, orthopedics was the crippled childrens society. intitially.

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 30, 2020, at 6:05:51

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 5:33:04

Yeah, I'm not a "classic physique" guy. I like big Legs and strong cores. The core strength to me is more important than some "beauty ideal". I'm not talking about fat around the core, but I wouldn't want to limit my core exercises in order to get a "V shape"

So you agree that you need to curl your spine in order to train your core and your lumbar extensors correctly?

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 15:39:02

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by Lamdage22 on January 30, 2020, at 6:05:51

I am not a bodybuilder training for bodybuilding ideal, either (though I do admire the work they do in learning to have such precise control over various muscles and their firing sequences).

It was more from a 'bringing up the weakest link' perspective.

I have noticed that many of the guys who do lots of barbell training end up with very short / tight lumbar extensors and hyperextended lumbar resting position and have their guts hanging out in front of them because of lack of anterior core development.

If you don't have knee pain and you don't have visibly under-developed quads vs hamstrings then when you ask me about whether you should have a back extension or hamstring exercise I'm thinking the 4th thing (to complete the force couple) that you didn't suggest...

In other words... The thing you don't want to think about / do...

In other words...

Probably your weakest link. Probably the most neglected.

Probably the area that could stand for some 'beginners gains' from having been neglected...

Would be anterior core.

But I don't know, really. I haven't seen you. I have been neglecting it, myself.

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 16:09:49

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 15:39:02

Ah, sorry, anterior curling...

I think the question is 'can you do the movement with anterior curling as well as without?'

So... The exercise that you can do... The plank. The leg raise. The roll out. Whatever it may be. The exercise that you are doing where the aim or the point of the exercise is to (perhaps amongst other things) work your core in a balanced or well-rounded way...

If you are normally accomplishing the movement (or acheiving the core stability) by sort of hanging off of tight lumbar extensors or using them to generate swing or maybe using tight hip flexors from your legs)... Then that is one way of accomplishign the movement, of course...

But depending on what you are trying to accomplish... It might be worth trying do the exercise a bit differnetly. Trying to actually work the anterior core.

I find it hard to get my anterior core activated on planks. One good way of activating them is to try and take advantage of the flinch reflex. If I had a trainer they could try and tickle me around the middle... Or you could pretend to playfight and throw a couple light punches or pokes for the flinch reflex contraction. You can also lie on your back and drop (very lightly from a short distance) a light weight plate on you (I mean, like, 5kg from 1 inch away) to get you contracting in a flinch reflex. Then once you can get the contraction (without spinal flexion) you are in business.

The point is basically to use the abdominals on the core exercises.

Going into spinal flexion is one way that people have of using their core -- but it isn't essential. YOu don't have to hunch forwards to contract your abdominals.

There is a bunch of stuff on deadlifting with a round vs flat back and so on... We watch guys lift atlas stones with very round backs and their spines look to be doing okay...

_______

Collagen changes it's composition over time. Skin becomes less elasic. You pull it or pinch it and it doesn't snap back / recoil into its original position anymore. It hangs more loosely over the connective tissue and sags a bit.

your ligaments do, to.

We have ligaments running along our spine to help hold our spinal curvatures so we can be springy. As our ligaments get looser with age people tend to naturally develop hyperextended regions. Hyperextended lumbar spine and another region of thoracic kyphosis (so it becomes impossible to lift arms overhead without shoulder impingement).

I think we have to work fairly hard to try and get the muscles picking up the slack and holding us into proper alignment where they did not need to do that work with more youthful ligaments.

I think that results in people 'feeling' like they are in neutral position and not realising or seeing (you can't see yourself side on without altering your position unless you take a movie). It feels to me like I am in abdominal flexion a little bit when I think I am likely in netural.

I don't suppose the guys Ripptoe trains (who stand their with their bellies out before they squat) would tell you they are in hyperextension before they start their squats under the bar. I think they would tell you they believe themselves to be neutral.

But if Ripptoe walked behind them and poked them in their lumbar extesors they would be flinched hard as they can be flinched already.

And if Ripptoe walked in front of them and poked them in their belly they would flinch all right. They would flinch.

Their bellies are hanging out. There is no anterior core contraction. Not really.

 

@Alexandra: Shoes

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 21, 2020, at 11:06:45

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 16:09:49

Hey Alexandra,

I have wider than average feet and I am looking for a shoe to work out with. I don't want a weightlifter shoe. When I squat, I want to simply use chocks.

Any ideas?

 

Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors

Posted by Lamdage22 on May 7, 2020, at 13:11:10

In reply to Re: @Alexandra: Hamstrings and lumbar extensors, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2020, at 16:09:49

Hey ALexandra,

im a little bulky and not that strong. Is working your hamstrings with a Glute Ham Raise machine very hard? It might be too difficult for me at this point


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