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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:18:04
In reply to Re: thinking about war » Krazy Kat , posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:14:04
Well, thank you. We'd probably be walking up the East Side today with two dogs and a cat to invade some friend's house further up the island. My mother was very emotional this morning...
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:23:39
In reply to *sickened*., posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
I shouldn't have even used the word. I meant it in the sense of "of course we're going to be thinking about war now, because we're angry", and that's an appropriate response! But very few seem to be angry.
It's much more appropriate than speaking about theoretical deaths of theoretical innocent lives, when these innocent have only been gone a few hours.
No, I'm not feeling loving - I'm angry! I'm pissed off! And if I got ahold of the people who did this, or were responsible...
War may be necessary, I don't know.
But suggesting that we somehow owe it to the terrorists to give them a special place in or hearts along with the victims - please!
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:25:18
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 15:17:02
> I know - wasn't targeting you, either. I'm just REALLY mad right now. I need something to do...
Posted by Marie1 on September 11, 2001, at 15:28:19
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 11:33:39
My god, I've been a basket case all day. My husband works in New York (he commutes weekly) and he called me at 9:00 this morning to tell me to turn on the news. I watched as the jet destroyed the second tower!! then when the pentagon was hit - words fail me. I'm still in shock. I live in Northern Virginia, many people in my neighborhood are employed at the pentagon. then a friend, a governemt employee called to say there was a hijacked plane circling Dulles!! which is very close to where I live. Went to pick up the kids at their schools - who knew where the next target would be? This is without a doubt, the most horrible day in history for the US. I wish my husband could come home. At least I know he's ok. But as for my friends and neighbors at the pentagon, I still don't know who may have bbeen hurt. This is such a shocking tragedy. I don't think we'll recover from this, we'll never be the same.
Marie
> My sister goes to NYU and my bf works in Manhattan. I haven't heard anything from him, the phone lines (including cell) are all down; subway, Amtrak, NJT, and the NYC and Newark airports are all probably shut down too). I can't reach anybody in the Boston or D.C. metro areas (where I also have family), either.
>
> Needless to say, I'm a basket case. I have CNN on and I'm looking all over the 'net but I can't find out any useful info.
>
> To Greg, about possible retaliation: I was just reading an article about a new TV show in the fall. It's going to be about the CIA. One of the issues mentioned was whether the agency is still relevant in the post-Cold War era. I hope that the CIA will prove its continued worth in seeking out and capturing (or, hell, killing) those responsible without need for civilian casualties.
>
> And to Simcha: I'm having some of the same thoughts as you are -- may God, Great Mother, Allah, whatever have mercy on the dead, the people in the buildings, the people in the hijacked plans, and even the perpetrators. (Appreciate the significance of this sentiment, coming as it is from an atheist.)
>
> I'm mourning in my own way, playing and singing a requiem mass. "Give them eternal rest, Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."
>
> May death be swallowed up in victory, and may the mourners be comforted.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:29:59
In reply to No one has called for war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:23:39
> But suggesting that we somehow owe it to the terrorists to give them a special place in or hearts along with the victims - please!
I don;t think anyone is suggesting that feel anything like love for the terrorists... or pity or anything other than hatred. But you must agree that more deaths would NOT be worthwhile.
War is wrong. its is ugly and it kills. Its simple.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:35:59
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Elizabeth, posted by Marie1 on September 11, 2001, at 15:28:19
I lived in that area for awhile and now am in NY.
My condolences to you - I'm glad your husband is O.K..
The pentagon is perhaps the most amazing of all - a true icon set ablaze.
Let us know what you find out.
- K.
Posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 15:40:03
In reply to Thanks for your concern..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:03:02
> I'm sorry, I know this is really sarcastic, but just because I disagree with you, I can't believe I haven't received any support from anyone in this thread. We've lost friends because of this as I pointed out.
>
> Thanks.
>
> - K.K.
I'm sorry you felt unsupported. I've been trying to think how to respond appropriately to this thread. Yes, we've lost friends. I don't want to also lose any friends on this board over this. You all fill a unique place in my life that my other friends, who tend to share my political views, cannot. I'm afraid that this is going to turn out like the religion thread - something we will never all be able to agree on. Unlike religion, I don't think we should have to stop discussing this. I just hope that we really can keep political differences separate from the personal here. I know I will try. I have too much respect for the people I've met here to jettison them because of their politics.All that was just long winded way of saying "lets play nice here guys".
Jane
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:41:09
In reply to Re: No one has called for war... » Krazy Kat , posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:29:59
> I don;t think anyone is suggesting that feel anything like love for the terrorists... or pity or anything other than hatred.
=== Well, yes, this actually was suggested.
But you must agree that more deaths would NOT be worthwhile.
=== Of course killing the person(s) responsible for this would be worthwhile. It would help keep it from happening again. IF, it turns out to be connected to 1993, how can you NOT justify that?
>>
> War is wrong. its is ugly and it kills. Its simple.=== It's not simple. That is why being President is difficult, along with all that other stuff you have to do.
Again, what is the other solution?
- K.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 15:42:47
In reply to *sickened*., posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
re: "make love not war:"
condoms are far cheaper than stealth bombers and loads of nuclear missiles and all the other crap. heck, even a bunch of hookers for everyone involved would be cheaper.-elizabeth
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 15:46:29
In reply to *sickened*., posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
I am sick to death of debating the act of war, so I'm not going to opine on that anymore... But, what we are talking about is lets say, a war with the palestinians, not exactly the most advanced army... The ones celebrating were celebrating in refugee camps, not exactly the best sign if your looking to be waging a war against NATO...I dont think we live in an era where a full scale muskets and bayonets war is even conceiveable... I think the opperations will work something like this:
1. Saturation bombing of specific military, and suspected targets.
2. Continued surveilence of threat from air space, dominated by at least 5 seperate air forces... (Note: not one american plane has ever been shot down to my knowledge in the middle east...)
3. Continued bombing...
4. Military troops will be airlifted into 'hot' zones...
5. Areas will fall under the command of various military troops, guerilla forces will be fought by these troops.
We are not talking about the United States going to war with China, we are basically talking about 5 nations going to war with people who's military gear in previous wars cosisted of robes and sandals...
I dont think that there is going to be massive loss of life on the side of the 'aggressors' if that is such a word as you can call those who seek peace in light of a national tradgedy.
If you think that I feel this is some sort of great thing, as if I want to see a war in the middle east, you are wrong... I just thought I might share my opinion on how possible opperations may take place... Keep in mind that all of these nations that have sided with us, and to not side with us is obviously not something any 'democratic' country would do in any case, regardless, these countries now could be targets for terrorism, and I am quite sure that they are commited to make at least an attempt so that this does not become a reality.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:47:53
In reply to Re: Thanks for your concern... » Krazy Kat , posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 15:40:03
> I'm sorry you felt unsupported.=== That's O.K. It just bothers me that dissenters often seem to be overlooked.
You've stayed "clean." :) I wouldn't have gotten upset if the tone had stayed reverent.
It really wasn't that bad, I don't think.
- K.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 15:49:13
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:24
> Elizabeth:
>
> I'm not assuming that it is anyone in particular.Yeah, I know. That part should have been separate -- I was pointing out that many people have jumped to that conclusion, and what meaning this has for me. I apologise for implying that you'd said anything of the sort.
(BTW, I think it's probably foreign, not domestic, terrorism, but after OKC I'm not sure of anything.)
> I'm appalled that we're worrying about the theoretical deaths of the future instead of focussing on a tragedy that just happened a few hours ago.
Like I said...I don't think it's an "instead." Focussing on the future is a personality style of sorts; some people ruminate on the past, some live for the moment, and some look to the future. Most of us do some combination of the three.
> And yes, it is "us" versus "them". Whoever "they" are - "they" just attacked "us".
Yeah, I know. What I meant was, we shouldn't put the crimes of a few on an entire country or region or religion.
> I don't understand this lack of insight into the evil in some people and the need to defend ourselves at times.
There's a difference between retaliation and self-defense. Particularly if the "retaliation" comes in the form of an all-out massacre with civilians accounting for the majority of casualties -- that would make us no better than the terrorists.
> Instead we're defending the terrorists? What the hell...
I'm not defending them. Never meant to say anything that might even suggest that. What they did was barbaric. I hope only that we may rise above that.
-elizabeth
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:49:35
In reply to a few thoughts, posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 15:42:47
> well, maybe not...
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:56:25
In reply to Re: No one has called for war... » NikkiT2, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:41:09
> > I don;t think anyone is suggesting that feel anything like love for the terrorists... or pity or anything other than hatred.
>
** well I've read the posts again and still can't see that>
> === Of course killing the person(s) responsible for this would be worthwhile. It would help keep it from happening again. IF, it turns out to be connected to 1993, how can you NOT justify that?***But on this board someone stated that they should kill the whole country...
Posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 16:00:06
In reply to Re: Got some news » Adam, posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 14:59:20
You know, my g.f. and I were just talking on the phone, and remembering our last visit to the Big Apple, maybe eight months ago...one of the best parts of that trip was visiting a friend of her's over in Brooklyn Heights who had just had a baby. We went for a stroll on that boardwalk, the one where you can see what seems like all of the Financial District and downtown, Ellis Ilsand, the Statue of Liberty, Staten Island, etc. I have all these pictures, a big panorama of the Manhattan Skyline, and one's eyes are simply pulled with magnetic force to the sight of the Twin Towers, they way they just dwarfed everything.
I've always thought, every time I've seen them or been close to them that, well, this is as high as a mountain. I've gotten good and tired hiking up piles of stone that are shorter than these enormous buildings. And that view from the Heights...how many movies have been shot up there, how many photograps of sweethearts like us standing on the boardwalk with those huge buildings...I mean, that's a New York moment, if there is one...and they're gone. They're not there anymore. I'm going back (I think, anyway) in a little over a month. I know we are going to go to the same spot, and I'm going to take some pictures, and they won't be there.
There is something about the New York mentality that is unique. Constantly perturbed but somehow indefatiguable. Stuff simultaneously horrifies and elicits barely a shrug. I've always thought, as nutty, crowded, dirty, smelly as this place is, it would take Riders of the Apocalypse to alter their schedule or really do much of anything to change their outlook. It's that vast organism of a city, which they somehow have this kind of telepathic connection to...shit happens, life goes on...whattah yah gonnah do, y'know?
More than the loss of life, more than the closing of the markets, more than idea that even here you are not safe from war, it think the thing that is really going to hit them (and me) right where they live is the instantaneous, permanent alteration of the landscape. I think the psychological impact of looking out the window, gazing from the boardwalk, driving on the freeway or over the bridge and not seeing those buildings anymore. That's what will shake even the most jaded from that city, I'm guessing, and bring home the sheer dimension of this tragedy. I'm not saying that all they care about is buildings. I'm saying a chunk of their world has been ripped out faster than a New York Minute, an inescapable, unforgettable void where once stood a towering symbol of the city. It will really, seriously, never be the same.
> I'm glad you are getting some good news. I hope that you will be one of the lucky ones and all of your loved ones will be okay -- well physically ok -- the emotional damage will be around for sometime.
>
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 16:09:28
In reply to Re: Got some news » akc, posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 16:00:06
That was beautifully said. My friend just commented on a movie she saw from the fifties in which the towers weren't there. I was in the Windows of the World, a lounge on @101st floor, about a month ago, my nose pressed to the glass looking over Brooklyn. We lived downtown so I could pinpoint where I was but those antennae.
The loss of those towers will represent the loss of those lives, the loss of lives around them (other buildlings crashed), and the loss of the firemen and women and policemen and women, forever. New York has been stripped of one of its limbs. It's excrutiating.
It's going to be a sight to behold.
When you see New Yorker's crying on the news... And I was so proud - they were helping each other. Leaving in a hurry, but not running over each other. I haven't been able to see much about the D.C. phenomenon.
Thanks for the visual.
> >
Posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 16:13:33
In reply to Re: Got some news » akc, posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 16:00:06
It is such a physical reminder of a deep psychic scar. I don't know if it will help people with their grief or make it worse.
I've never been to NYC (only changed planes at the airport). You've given me a description that gives me a glimpse of what it must be for those who are there right now.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 16:33:11
In reply to Re: Got some news » Adam, posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 16:13:33
More news....
I just heard from my sister. She described hearing a loud bang and thinking it was construction of some sort, then seeing smoke rising in the air and thinking something had caught fire, and then going to her 9:30 class and finding out what had really happened. Several NYU dorms are being evacuated, and she's taking in friends. As far away as it is from the former WTC site, NYU was impacted too. There were also a number of car bombs in New York and DC.
This, like, sucks.
-elizabeth
Posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 17:34:35
In reply to Re: Got some news, posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 16:33:11
> This, like, sucks.
>
> -elizabethYes. I'm glad to hear your friends and family are alright, though. Car bombs? That may be a rumor. I guess there was talk about a car bomb at the State Dept., but that turned out to be a false report. I just went for a swim at the gym...of course all the TVs were tuned to CNN, and there was nothing about a car bomb. What was pretty disturbing was the flames over Kabul. Looks like the counterattack has begun.
Posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Got some news, posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 17:34:35
I am happy to say there have been no reports from the circle that I (really my g.f., she's the NY connection) know of anyone getting hurt, or knowing anyone who was. That's amazing to me. I still can't get any word on the guy who was close and saw one of the towers collapse. I guess he made it to a friend's place OK. I can only speculate he's trying to decompress and doesn't want to talk to anyone.
As for DC, from what I have been told (and I can't vouch for the quality of the info, since I'm getting it third hand at best) there may not have been that many deaths at the Pentagon (excepting the people in the plane, of course). People definitely were killed in the building, but apparently, no one who my friend knows was one of them. He's not really sure of all the details, but got word from his wife that so-and-so and so-and-so were OK. I assume she was talking to other wives. I'm not sure though. I guess that's it.
Posted by shelliR on September 11, 2001, at 22:23:50
In reply to Bit more news..., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 19:22:48
I'm glad you both were able to hear from your family, friends, etc. and that, at least on that front, all is well.
I don't turn on radio, tv, anything noice of any sort in the morning, and caught the news on the way into D.C. to meet with my therapist. not anywhere near Capitol Hill. (not a day to be very self-absorbed in therapy, though.) I witnessed the site of afternoon rush hour at about 10:00 am., and parents going to schools to pick children up (although the schools did not officially close because they didn't want to send some kids home to empty houses). Montgomery County Schools (where I imagine you attended, Elizabeth and where you worked, Adam), were closed two hours early.
I did not get the feeling of chaos from being in Washington; much different scene than New York. I think the crash was not as damaging and the pentagon is away from the inner city. Capitol Hill did close, because of course no one knew what might happen next. No car bombing as far I I know. Mostly people felt and looked very sad, I think.
Shelli
Posted by sar on September 11, 2001, at 23:54:54
In reply to Re: Bit more news...Elizabeth, Adam, posted by shelliR on September 11, 2001, at 22:23:50
as soon as i woke up this morning, my brother said to me, "the world trade center was crashed into by an airplane 5 minutes ago." i was so tired and concerned with waking up to go to an arraignment that it flew right through me.
but watching the news all day and reading thse posts have brought me nearly to tears.
my thoughts + prayers are with all in the NY/DC-affected areas...so many gone...i can't believe it...i've never seen this sort of thing...
my mom's thighs are burn-scarred since youth from a schoolyard fire and it brings pains to my stomach to think of all the people burned "head-to-toe," as they said on the news...those burn-scars are very very ingrained in my memory...
i know nothing of politics and am not religious, but i'm a crying vengeful fair pacifist...my uncle walked across the brooklyn bridge to pick his son up from school...my gramma's gonna take a train to NYC to donate blood (she thinks her town is too "corrupt" to tranfer the blood over there!)...
alll of you all of you religious or not, let's pray to anyone God the gods the godesses the angels whathaveyou....i'm going to devour the newspaper tomorrow...i don't know what i think of war, except that it strikes a chord in my tum 'cos i'm 23 and a bunch of my friends have just joined the military...i'm sick of drug overdoses...now war???
angry and sad.sar
Posted by Elizabeth on September 12, 2001, at 4:11:11
In reply to Bit more news..., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 19:22:48
> I am happy to say there have been no reports from the circle that I (really my g.f., she's the NY connection) know of anyone getting hurt, or knowing anyone who was.
Hey, if you happen to be in NY visiting her, I'd like to get together. (We never did manage to do this while I was still in Boston!)
> That's amazing to me. I still can't get any word on the guy who was close and saw one of the towers collapse. I guess he made it to a friend's place OK. I can only speculate he's trying to decompress and doesn't want to talk to anyone.
Another possibility is that the phone lines are still down?
> As for DC, from what I have been told (and I can't vouch for the quality of the info, since I'm getting it third hand at best) there may not have been that many deaths at the Pentagon (excepting the people in the plane, of course).
Oh yeah, compared to the WTC, there were hardly any people in the Pentagon.
-e
Posted by Elizabeth on September 12, 2001, at 4:23:12
In reply to Re: Bit more news...Elizabeth, Adam, posted by shelliR on September 11, 2001, at 22:23:50
> I'm glad you both were able to hear from your family, friends, etc. and that, at least on that front, all is well.
Still haven't heard from my cousins and uncle (DC), although my mother was trying to get in touch with them.
> I don't turn on radio, tv, anything noice of any sort in the morning, and caught the news on the way into D.C. to meet with my therapist. not anywhere near Capitol Hill.
I slept very soundly (thanks to Moban) and didn't hear it when the phone rang like 4 times in the morning. When I woke up, I checked the phone messages, and they were both from a friend of ours asking if I'd heard anything from my SO. I had no idea what she was talking about, so I called her and that's when I found out. I don't usually watch or listen to news.
> I witnessed the site of afternoon rush hour at about 10:00 am., and parents going to schools to pick children up (although the schools did not officially close because they didn't want to send some kids home to empty houses). Montgomery County Schools (where I imagine you attended, Elizabeth and where you worked, Adam), were closed two hours early.
Yup, I went to public school in Montgomery County through 2nd grade. (The schools in NC were comparatively bad, and they bumped me up to 4th grade after a month or so.)
People in Jersey (including my BF's ex-wife) were taking their kids out of school too. Chrissie says that classes at NYU are probably going to be cancelled as well. I'm not sure about here. It turns out that NJT is running, and my BF made it home safely from Metro Park station (he's snoozing soundly now; I'm still too wired to sleep).
> I did not get the feeling of chaos from being in Washington; much different scene than New York. I think the crash was not as damaging and the pentagon is away from the inner city.
That's true. The WTC was an incredibly crowded building in the middle of Manhattan, with other buildings surrounding it on all sides.
> Capitol Hill did close, because of course no one knew what might happen next.
I heard a rumor that the mall was destroyed. True? I spent a lot of time in that area as a child. Hard to believe that it might just be gone.
> No car bombing as far I I know. Mostly people felt and looked very sad, I think.
Yeah, I'm now hearing that the car bombing thing was probably just a rumor. (Being in Manhattan, Chrissie is probably hearing all sorts of wild rumors.)
I had guessed that the death toll might be as much as 100,000. It seems that it was more like 20,000, though. Anyone know? The footage I'm seeing on CNN looks like the people coming out of Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- covered with soot and burns, some carrying the wounded, etc.
-elizabeth
Posted by sweetmarie on September 12, 2001, at 5:59:33
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
> I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
>
> akcDear akc (and everyone else who has responded),
This is awful. It`s completely beyond my comprehension. I live in the UK, and watched everything as it happened yesterday ... I agree with Tony Blair - these bastards have absolute indifference to the sanctity of life. God alone knows how people involved are coping. I am not religious (don`t even `believe`), but I will be praying.
My depression has taken a complete nose-dive - it was rocky already, but this has tipped me over. We ALL need to know that it`s O.K. to feel deeply about what has happened, and those of us who are suffering from depression will be really feeling it badly. It`s grief, and a totally natural feeling.
To all of you who have friends, relatives and neighbours involved, and those who are still waiting to hear - you are all in my thoughts.
Anna.
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