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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 1:25:44
The new analyst I am going to now is so different from the old one, even though they are about the same age, and have spent their whole professional lives together, first training together and then as training analysts at the same Institute. They even cover for one another when one goes on vacation! The new one was very thoughtful in calling me about that, as he knew I wouldn't want to talk to the old one under any circumstances, after such a traumatic, horrible trmination.
The new one thinks that "implicit relational knowing", the phrase coined by the Boston Process Study Change Group, is probably the most important aspect of change and growth in therapy. He seems to think that we don't overcome early trauma by talking about it, but experience safe, new experiences with our therapists which gradually give us a sense of empowerment and well-being in the present, and allow us to leave the past behind us- to an extent. And this is all done non-verbally: later, we recognize it, and can talk about it- but, by then, the essential new, good experience has already taken place, many times over- in our unconscious, non-verbal right hemispheres. With the other analyst, I understood that I had to say EVERYTHING that I felt and thought; with this one, I am just invited to tell him anything I would like to. I have actually been encouraged to just be with him quietly- no words required. He is wonderful at being both very calm and very attentive- whether we are speaking or not. This is such a new experience for me ( a big talker!), but in five months of going twice a week, it has helped me so much more than four years of going five days a week to the other analyst. There must be just so much that we don't know about why therapy works or doesn't, and it's probably different for every patient-therapist pair. Lots of people have been talking here recently about how vital it is to feel connected. The implicit relational knowing can include that, but it also seems to involve mutual emotional self-regulation and soothing, I think- just both people working towards a state of well-being together in the face of very traumatic and painful memories on the patient's part, which undoubtedly activate somewhat similiar feelings on the analyst's part.
This is very new for me, and I am so happy about how helpful it's turning out to be. I'd love to know if anyone else is experiencing anything similiar to this.
twinleaf (Pfinstegg)
Posted by Nathan_Arizona on July 27, 2007, at 6:52:08
In reply to So different..., posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 1:25:44
Implicit relational knowing?
I didn't really even know it had a name, but I would have to agree that it works- at least based on my experience with my therapist.
In fact, last summer I experienced real love for the first time and even posted here that it was because I loved my therapist first. My relationships since then have been amazingly fulfilling and stable.
Another thing I think this kind of therapy helped me with was conflict resolution in the context of a relationship.
Prior to therapy, I simply couldn't tolerate any kind of conflict and would simply BOLT at the slightest sign of danger (perceived or real) in any relationship. It was a major defense mechanism on my part.
However, my relationship with my T was absolutely riddled with danger, but his consistency and patience really helped me to stay the course. If something came up, I learned that rational adults can deal with it and still maintain the relationship and love. There was no need to bolt.
It helped me to learn to tolerate hurt - which is inevitable in any relationship - because we had to deal with some pretty intense "transference" feelings,(which maybe more intense in this kind of therapy?)
Okay, now I'm just rambling.
So yeah - I know what you're talking about and yeah I do think it is an amazingly good thing.
Natie
Posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 16:38:38
In reply to Re: So different..., posted by Nathan_Arizona on July 27, 2007, at 6:52:08
I remember your wonderful post about all the intense feelings you went through with your T- and how that eventually made your relationships outside so much different and more rewarding. I GUESS we are talking about the same things! Hard to know because it's mostly unconscious, Did you have a lot of fears of abandonment with your T? That's a major issue for me right now; I vary between really feeling secure and attached- and not. Were you in therapy a long time?
In any event, it's wonderful what you did!
Posted by DAisym on July 27, 2007, at 19:28:04
In reply to Re: So different... » Nathan_Arizona, posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 16:38:38
Have you read Daniel Stern's "The Present Moment"? So much of what you are talking about is his work. I have been exceedingly lucky that 4 members of the Boston Change Group have been instructors for my fellowship program. The level of discussion is intense and powerful because they aim to build relationships with us, not just teach us. I feel very lucky to be learning this way.
The idea of silence during therapy is highly charged for me. For a long time I would ask my therapist not to "abandon" me to the silence. He would acknowledge how hard and dangerous it feels for me but he would also point out that he hadn't gone anywhere, that even in the silence he was listening to what I was "telling" him. It is easier now though still not my favorite thing.
I'm so glad you are finding this new therapist so helpful. But I wonder if all the work you've done before isn't a foundation that you are building on now? I know it is different and there was so much hurt and loss but it still seems like you came a long way in the other therapy. It reminds me that often we need more than one guide on our life journal.
Glad to see you posting.
Posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 20:20:45
In reply to Re: So different... » twinleaf, posted by DAisym on July 27, 2007, at 19:28:04
That's just wonderful, Daisy! I recently heard Daniel Stern speak, but haven't read his book, which I will do. How great to have those people from the Boston Change Group teaching and interacting with you. I can't imagine anything more exciting, or more helpful for your career as it grows.
The relationship I had with my former analyst was extremely important to me- and so its loss was very hard, mysterious and painful, although we are learning a lot about what probably happened. With the new one, it's very different. He is VERY attentive, so that I do feel very "heard", even when I am silent. But he is less empathic (with the old one the empathy could be almost overwhelming at times- until the hostile, abusive side of him came out), and more interested in JUST ME. I like it better; it helps me feel calmer, validated and more self-accepting. I know I did learn a lot from the first one, but I feel I can take a deep breath, relax, and JUST BE with the new one- it's somehow a big relief!
Thanks so much for your kind and insightful remarks. If you want to say, what is your felowship in, exactly?
Posted by DAisym on July 27, 2007, at 20:49:58
In reply to Re: So different... » DAisym, posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 20:20:45
The Fellowship was through Boston Hospital and Harvard Medical school in early childhood mental health. I finished the Fellowship but we continue to meet and learn and receive mentorship from a wonderful team of instructors. I'm entering a PhD program -- I'm probably nuts to even try -- I'm not sure if I want to be a clinician or nor yet - there are other avenues to take in this work. But in has helped my personal journey a great deal, as well as hinder it now and again.
I tried to explain what you are talking about to someone last week, the need to just "be" with your therapist sometimes. For me, it usually happens after opening up a new memory or working with some particularly painful material. I'll feel bruised and scared and kind of tentative. It feels so important to just be with someone who knows what I am feeling and why, without risking more words to open up more wounds. It isn't that I'm not asked to talked again eventually, about how I feel or what I'm thinking. It is just so great that we pause for these moments of healing -- that they are allowed and even encouraged. It has taken me a long while to value these moments though and sometimes I still judge myself harshly for "not wanting to do the work."
It sure sounds like you are doing yours.
Posted by annierose on July 27, 2007, at 20:51:41
In reply to Re: So different... » DAisym, posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 20:20:45
Twinleaf -
I think it's true that we learn different things from different people. I agree that your first therapist taught you so many things and your current therapist is adding and expanding its reach. You are so lucky to have found some peace around T1. And fate smiled nicely when T2 and you hit it off immediately.
I love silence. In fact, silence is what got me and my t off track earlier in the year. From my yoga practice, I was becoming more and more comfortable in our silent moments. My therapist thought the silence was hostile. It wasn't anger at all, it was comfort. I told her it reminded me when my son was sick. He would lie on the couch and want me just to sit by his side. He didn't want me to talk, just be with him. And I understood that need. I think her reaction to my quietier moments said more about her than me. It made her uncomfortable. She felt like she wasn't doing her job. She is much happier now that I am talking more. (Except I am week two of a three week vacation ... yikes! ... talk about silence.)
You have mentioned Daniel Stern's work before and I have talked about him with my therapist. I think I will read the book Daisy reccommended too.
Interesting, I have decided to sit on her couch when she returns for a session or two. I haven't sat in over a year. I am missing too much by shutting my eyes.
Posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 22:47:34
In reply to Re: So different... » twinleaf, posted by DAisym on July 27, 2007, at 20:49:58
What you are doing sounds wonderful- and you are doing it at such greaat places, and with such wonderful people. If you do go for your PhD, there are so many ways you can use that- education, early prevention (I think that's your area at present), therapy, and undoubtedly others I don't know of. I did my medical education in Boston, and know how great the psychiatric teaching is there. I miss being there!
Posted by twinleaf on July 27, 2007, at 23:04:09
In reply to Re: So different..., posted by annierose on July 27, 2007, at 20:51:41
T2 and I were talking about the couch today! He said, from his training, that it remained sort of the ideal for patients to go deeply into themselves, without distraction. But then he said that he has many less people using it than formerly- both because they come less often, and because interactiveness has been recognized as being valuable- for some people all the time, and for other people some of the time. He said I could use it any time I wanted, or not at all if I didn't want to. During the good years with T1, I used to sit on it, lie on it, and sometimes sit on the floor near it. T1 had an easy-going attitude towards all of this- and once said that over the years people have sat or lain down in every posible location in his office! It's nice to have the freedom to do whatever seems most useful, don't you think?
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