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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 16:17:54
linkadge,
How much was your dosage of the Kira SJW extract daily when the serotonin syndrome occurred?
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 17:32:11
In reply to SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 16:17:54
Actually I wasn't taking Kira. I was taking about 900-1200mg of Jamieson brand SJW.
It started as kind of an agitation that built over a few days. It ended in shivers, profuse sweating, rapid heartbeat, pupil stuff.
Anyhow, in hindsight, I'd know the warning signs. I'd like to try it again at a lower dose.
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 18:48:00
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 17:32:11
Thanks for your info.
It seems to be a concentrated product mixed with other substances (Jamieson):
Each caplet contains: St. John's Wort 1,200mg (300mg full spectrum powdered extract 1:4)
I have some SIW of 450mg NSI (vitacost) stored.
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 8:32:46
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 18:48:00
Actually, the best product I took was Swiss Pharmacudicals. It was standardized for hypercin and hyperforin.
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 2, 2006, at 16:18:55
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 8:32:46
Thats perhaps the standardized St. John's wort extract Ze 117, Zeller (?). As far as I know its pretty expensive. Did you have photosensitivity, skin problems with SJW?
~sdb
Posted by sdb on March 2, 2006, at 18:01:11
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by sdb on March 2, 2006, at 16:18:55
Bye the way,
there's a nice site for SJW from a ancient SJW user (stated on the site on omega3, vit. B-complex today). Still updated. Beautiful photoalbum on the private site.
~sdb
Posted by tealady on March 3, 2006, at 1:30:56
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 17:32:11
What happens to your pupils, and what are the symptoms of serotonin symptom?
I got a lot of smooth muscle contraction stuff with trypophan when I started .. for couple of weeks... like rapid heart beat couple of days only, other smooth muscle contractions..like uterus, gut, not to mention the flatulence, increased bowel movement, and I still have increased easy increased sweating and skin going red and hot easily on exercise that I've never had before, as well as an appetite decrease to normal level, (and a possible body temp. increase to just above normal level 37.2 from below 36? not sure on this though... could just be the hot weather)
This is on a Max. of 500mg Typtophan a day too?
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:40:57
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge » linkadge, posted by tealady on March 3, 2006, at 1:30:56
It basically started with rapid body temperature cycling. I has freezing, and then 10 minautes later it felt like I was boiling in hell.
I just went down a list and I was experiencing every symptom. It happened just a few days after a dose increase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:43:44
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge » linkadge, posted by tealady on March 3, 2006, at 1:30:56
I think they were very dialated. A friend asked whats wrong with your eyes, it looks like you're on opium.
That may not have been one of the direct side effects though.
The most prominant symptoms were cardiac, diaraeah, profuse sweating -> profuse shiffering
insomnia, extreme agitation.Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 5, 2006, at 16:56:25
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:43:44
After shortly frequenting some studies I have following results for SJW:
Unipolar depression: in most studies effective. Some studies say even for moderate to severe depression. But Jama study says not effective.
GAD: maybe effective above all anxiety in connection with depression.
OCD: Almost no studies. Two studies say not effective.
PD: only laboratory test, maybe effective.
~sdb
Posted by sdb on March 6, 2006, at 16:16:33
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:43:44
serotonin syndrome caused by SJW without comedication should be rare phenomena . Or am I wrong? -Do you know more cases?
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 6, 2006, at 18:29:46
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by sdb on March 6, 2006, at 16:16:33
I would think so, although it is not unheard of. SJW may act as both a SSRI and an MAOI. In addition it acts as a 5-ht1a agonist.
SS is supposed to result from overactivation of 5-ht1a.
Probably the upper dose range could be problematic.
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 6, 2006, at 20:38:37
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by linkadge on March 6, 2006, at 18:29:46
Thanks for your comment linkadge. Can you define after your experience through which postulated mechanism is SJW working the most? Or is it the combination of all mechanisms?
MAO-inhibition/comt
like a ssri
central beta receptor downregulation
GABA enhanced transmissionIs it true that in the first week is almost nothing noticeable thus SJW needs at least 5 weeks to fully kick in?
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 7, 2006, at 16:10:59
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by sdb on March 6, 2006, at 20:38:37
I felt a mild bit of apathy for the first few days, which may have pointed to serotonin uptake. It is definately true that mood improves more with time, but I did notices some effects right away, mainly less anxiety.
It is hard to say which mechanism worked the most. It increased hednoic experience more than SSRI's ever did, ie listening to music, going for walks. One of the biggest changes was in social functioning. After a few weeks, I actually wanted to be around people. SSRI's never did much for my social withdrawl.
I noticed things like brighter colors which might point to noradrenergic/dopameringic effects.
Seeing as the herb inhibits reuptake of SER/NET/DAT do similar extents, I would probably implicate all three.
Supposedly there is a company working on synthetic hyperforin (or was it hpyercin) whichever one was responsable for the uptake inhibition of the monoamines. This would be darn fine product in my opinion.
Linkadge
Posted by nolvas on March 7, 2006, at 17:01:40
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by linkadge on March 7, 2006, at 16:10:59
This page has a nice table illustrating which monoamines are metabolized by MAO-A and MAO-B
http://www.pharmacorama.com/en/Sections/Serotonin_4.php
It's the cyan coloured table under the heading >
5-HTcatabolism inhibition: MAOI
Posted by linkadge on March 8, 2006, at 16:18:11
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by nolvas on March 7, 2006, at 17:01:40
Cool, but what't tryptamine? I've heard of it, but don't know what it is.
P.S. MAO inhibitors always improved the antidepressant effect of exercise in myself.
The herb FO-TI (MAO-B inhibitor) had a similar effect. Exercise relases PEA, and MAO-B inhibitors would probably allow that PEA to circulate longer before being metabolized.
Linkadge
Posted by nolvas on March 8, 2006, at 19:06:02
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by linkadge on March 8, 2006, at 16:18:11
This explains it better than I can :\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptamine
Posted by sdb on March 8, 2006, at 23:34:44
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by nolvas on March 8, 2006, at 19:06:02
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/stjohns-jama-2002.pdf
Thats the JAMA study. No efficacy for moderate and severe depression established.
What do you think about that?
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 9, 2006, at 12:42:05
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by sdb on March 8, 2006, at 23:34:44
I think JAMA is probably biased towards pharmacudicals. But, it is probably good to look at as many different studies as possible.
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 10, 2006, at 18:07:52
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by linkadge on March 9, 2006, at 12:42:05
>St John's Wort - this had a useful >antidepressant effect for me, giving a welcome >layer of what I can only describe as "emotional >insulation", but it was somewhat sedating, >sometimes made me more anxious, and eventually >caused severe headaches with confused vision >and altered thinking - MAOI tyramine effect, >predictably induced by certain foods. This last >forced me to give up on it as the diet >restrictions were unworkable. This caused a >couple of weeks' unexpected withdrawal >symptoms - anxiety, very low mood, muscle >twitches, poor concentration, no coping >resources, etc. This was probably the worst >period I've been through (save this week), >compounded by stress at work, and SJW is (for >me) definitely not as "harmless" as widely >stated!
>omegon
Seems it works like MAOI (described by omegon)
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 11, 2006, at 15:10:14
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link, posted by sdb on March 10, 2006, at 18:07:52
So is it possable that MAO inhibitors cause hallucinations by potentiating the actions of tryptamine ?
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 11, 2006, at 15:45:50
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} everybody, link » sdb, posted by linkadge on March 11, 2006, at 15:10:14
Actually there are many ways mentioned in literature how sjw works. I have never heard tyramine could be a problem.
Why do you dont take SJW again? Are you just afraid because of the serotonin syndrom you experienced?
You said that you had taken some different extracts of SJW. Probably you could take again one of these extracts you never had any problems before (?).
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 12, 2006, at 20:04:57
In reply to Re: SJW - serotonin syndrome }} linkadge, posted by sdb on March 11, 2006, at 15:45:50
ITs the next thing on the list to try again, if things get rough.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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