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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Marty mc Fly on July 16, 2004, at 18:36:29
After some research I decided to use 5-htp for my OCD & Panic to increase serotonin levels. I started with 100 mg and worked my way up to 300 mg in 3 divided doses of 100 mg over the day. The only effect I have so far after 2 months of consistent use is severe nausea after taking it, even with the dose divided and I experience no antidepressant effect whatsoever.
I have taken in with and without vitamine B6 and magnesium, 3 hours after a meal, with orange juice.What am I doing wrong ?
Are there ways to improve effectiveness of 5-htp ?
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 19:33:55
In reply to 5-htp: How to make it work well, posted by Marty mc Fly on July 16, 2004, at 18:36:29
> After some research I decided to use 5-htp for my OCD & Panic to increase serotonin levels. I started with 100 mg and worked my way up to 300 mg in 3 divided doses of 100 mg over the day. The only effect I have so far after 2 months of consistent use is severe nausea after taking it, even with the dose divided and I experience no antidepressant effect whatsoever.
Serotonin is the neurotransmitter responsible for contractions of the gut. There is more serotonin in your gastrointestinal tract than in your brain. I would suggest that you discontinue 5-HTP, and switch to l-tryptophan. You can get it at e.g. GNC, but I use veterinary grade tryptophan, available at:
http://www.buygpdirect.com/gpefeed.htm
Ultra-pure tryptophan, near the bottom of the page.
> I have taken in with and without vitamine B6 and magnesium, 3 hours after a meal, with orange juice.
>
> What am I doing wrong ?
> Are there ways to improve effectiveness of 5-htp ?There is a decarboxylase inhibitor that is used to ensure that L-DOPA (for Parkinson's) is taken up by the brain before it turns to dopamine. It would also work for 5-HTP, but the better solution is to try tryptophan, IMHO.
Lar
Posted by Marty mc Fly on July 16, 2004, at 20:30:36
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Marty mc Fly, posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 19:33:55
Well I guess you're right. I have used tryptophan in the past and it did more than 5-htp is doing now. The thing was I didn't use it consistently and maybe that was the reason it never worked that well.
Does tryptophan work like an antidepressant in down-regulating the serotonin network by decreasing the number of serotonin receptor sites ?
What is the right way to use tryptophan and to make it work effectively except for taking it on an empty stomach ?
Thanx for your thoughts !
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 17, 2004, at 15:06:06
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Larry Hoover, posted by Marty mc Fly on July 16, 2004, at 20:30:36
Before we get into the topic of tryptophan, I want to ask you why you didn't mention you were also taking 225 mg of the tricyclic clomipramine (Anafranil). I feel a little bit deceived.
Taking 300 mg 5-HTP with an antidepressant could have had disastrous consequences. Was your doctor aware of this effort?
> Well I guess you're right. I have used tryptophan in the past and it did more than 5-htp is doing now. The thing was I didn't use it consistently and maybe that was the reason it never worked that well.
Taking it can potentially normalize serotonin metabolism, but it won't "overnormalize" it.
> Does tryptophan work like an antidepressant in down-regulating the serotonin network by decreasing the number of serotonin receptor sites ?
Not that I've ever heard.
> What is the right way to use tryptophan and to make it work effectively except for taking it on an empty stomach ?
20 minutes after ingestion, consume something with a high glycemic index, to induce a burst of insulin. Think sugar.
> Thanx for your thoughts !
You're welcome.
Lar
Posted by Mistermindmasta on July 17, 2004, at 22:42:07
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Marty mc Fly, posted by Larry Hoover on July 17, 2004, at 15:06:06
> > Does tryptophan work like an antidepressant in down-regulating the serotonin network by decreasing the number of serotonin receptor sites ?
>
> Not that I've ever heard.If my memory serves me, I remember that the 5-HT2a receptors in the PFC of suicide victims and depressed ppl are upregulated. What i mean to say is that there are increased receptors, possibly as a result of decreased serotonin in that area of the brain. As most of us are aware of, increasing serotonin can create positive effects in some areas of the brain and lowering in other areas may also create positive effects. Might tryp be effective because it causes a decrease in the number of 5-ht2a receptors (in compensation for increased 5-ht at the receptors; downregulation occurs) which then leads to an effect that might be similar to atypical antipsychotics that antagonise the 5-ht2a receptor and cause an increase in cognitive ability and PFC function?
Anything that increases serotonin SHOULD theoretically lead to an eventual re-regulation of synaptic metabolism, whether it be significant or insignificant. Taking 5-HTP or Tryp should, theoretically, cause - at the very least - a downregulation at various serotonin receptors after chronic usage.
Posted by Marty mc Fly on July 18, 2004, at 9:03:45
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Marty mc Fly, posted by Larry Hoover on July 17, 2004, at 15:06:06
Your concern is greatly appreciated. The use of 5-htp was approved by my pdoc after he explained the dangers of serotonin syndrome and made sure I would stop using 5-htp whenever I felt a symptome of the syndrome such as euphoria, drowsiness, overreaction of the reflexes etc, but I never did, except for experiencing nausea in the stomach.
I should have mentioned my use of clomipramine in this posting. The thing is clomipramine didn't do much anymore and my pdoc didn't want to change meds, so augmentation was an option.I was curious, are you using any other supplements except for tryptophan for your condition ?
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 18, 2004, at 9:06:32
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 17, 2004, at 22:42:07
> > > Does tryptophan work like an antidepressant in down-regulating the serotonin network by decreasing the number of serotonin receptor sites ?
> >
> > Not that I've ever heard.
>
> If my memory serves me, I remember that the 5-HT2a receptors in the PFC of suicide victims and depressed ppl are upregulated. What i mean to say is that there are increased receptors, possibly as a result of decreased serotonin in that area of the brain. As most of us are aware of, increasing serotonin can create positive effects in some areas of the brain and lowering in other areas may also create positive effects. Might tryp be effective because it causes a decrease in the number of 5-ht2a receptors (in compensation for increased 5-ht at the receptors; downregulation occurs) which then leads to an effect that might be similar to atypical antipsychotics that antagonise the 5-ht2a receptor and cause an increase in cognitive ability and PFC function?I was being acerbic.
> Anything that increases serotonin SHOULD theoretically lead to an eventual re-regulation of synaptic metabolism, whether it be significant or insignificant. Taking 5-HTP or Tryp should, theoretically, cause - at the very least - a downregulation at various serotonin receptors after chronic usage.
Your arguments are plausible. I know of no evidence.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 18, 2004, at 9:29:58
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Larry Hoover, posted by Marty mc Fly on July 18, 2004, at 9:03:45
> Your concern is greatly appreciated. The use of 5-htp was approved by my pdoc after he explained the dangers of serotonin syndrome and made sure I would stop using 5-htp whenever I felt a symptome of the syndrome such as euphoria, drowsiness, overreaction of the reflexes etc, but I never did, except for experiencing nausea in the stomach.
All right. I'm relieved. It's just that too many people don't have the proper medical supervision.
> I should have mentioned my use of clomipramine in this posting. The thing is clomipramine didn't do much anymore and my pdoc didn't want to change meds, so augmentation was an option.
Absolutely. It's always an option.....when properly supervised. Why don't you consider asking about being supervised on an augmentative trial of low dose St. John's wort?
> I was curious, are you using any other supplements except for tryptophan for your condition ?I'm a complex case. Multiple dysfunctions. Multiple diagnoses. If I could simplify how I got there, it would be that I was simply too stubborn and strong-willed for my own good. Once I came to my senses (so to speak), my body was seriously over-whelmed. Humpty-Dumpty is an excellent allegory, although I probably ran into the wall, rather than falling off of it.
Right this moment, I am using only taurine. I want to focus entirely on its effects. I generally use a great variety of supplements. Currently, I am also rather heavily medicated (for me). Zoloft (I went psychotic on the last SSRI I used, but we're running out of options), trimipramine, and temazepam.
Lar
Posted by Marty mc Fly on July 18, 2004, at 20:10:38
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Marty mc Fly, posted by Larry Hoover on July 17, 2004, at 15:06:06
First of all, I want to say that I quit the 5-htp and went back on good old tryptophan... I take it 2,5 hours after lunch. Would that be a good time, or should I take it 2,5 hours after dinner ? How much do (or did) you take of it ?
> Absolutely. It's always an option.....when properly supervised. Why don't you consider asking about being supervised on an augmentative trial of low dose St. John's wort?
That's an excellent idea. Do you know of any more alternatives for augmenting a TCA or an AD in general ?
> I'm a complex case. Multiple dysfunctions. Multiple diagnoses. If I could simplify how I got there, it would be that I was simply too stubborn and strong-willed for my own good.
Join the club, same here.
> Right this moment, I am using only taurine. I want to focus entirely on its effects. I generally use a great variety of supplements. Currently, I am also rather heavily medicated (for me). Zoloft (I went psychotic on the last SSRI I used, but we're running out of options), trimipramine, and temazepam.
Taurine is indeed a good supplement to try. In the book 'Healing fear' I read that the effect of tryptophan can be enhanced by taking taurine. (Is that why you use it ?) Probably because it has an insulin-like effect on blood sugar levels. Dr Shipko of the Panic Disorder Institute also is an advocate of taurine: www.algy.com/pdi/FAQ//supplements.html
I'm pretty sure you already knew, but maybe there's some new information.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 19, 2004, at 0:56:39
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Larry Hoover, posted by Marty mc Fly on July 18, 2004, at 20:10:38
> In the book 'Healing fear' I read that the effect of tryptophan can be enhanced by taking taurine...
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 20, 2004, at 9:07:21
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Larry Hoover, posted by Marty mc Fly on July 18, 2004, at 20:10:38
> First of all, I want to say that I quit the 5-htp and went back on good old tryptophan... I take it 2,5 hours after lunch. Would that be a good time, or should I take it 2,5 hours after dinner ? How much do (or did) you take of it ?
I use four grams, but I don't use it daily. As tryptophan is also a precursor to melatonin, some people find that drowsiness is associated with tryptophan supps. If that's the case, 1-2 hours before bed, empty stomach, with a sweet chaser, would be ideal.
> > Absolutely. It's always an option.....when properly supervised. Why don't you consider asking about being supervised on an augmentative trial of low dose St. John's wort?
>
> That's an excellent idea. Do you know of any more alternatives for augmenting a TCA or an AD in general ?About SJW specifically, its mechanism of action is unique. It is a non-specific reuptake inhibitor. It doesn't matter which neurotransmitter you're thinking of, its synaptic half-life is extended by SJW. That said, the effect is small, relative to e.g. an SSRI. There are also at least seven other antidepressant mechanisms associated with SJW, each subtle on its own, but adding up to something noticeable.
With respect to other herbs you might want to try, I'd lean towards the adaptogens, such as Siberian ginseng, Rhodiola, or Withania (Ashwaghanda).
Taurine may well be a useful adjunct for you, as might be niacinamide.
> > I'm a complex case. Multiple dysfunctions. Multiple diagnoses. If I could simplify how I got there, it would be that I was simply too stubborn and strong-willed for my own good.
>
> Join the club, same here.When I got my mood symptoms under control a few years back (not via drugs, via supps.....doctors were amazed and/or claiming it was a coincidence), I was left with other persistent symptoms which had confounded my earlier treatments, all along. It then became clear that I had a number of distinct but related "syndromes" to try and treat. The confusion had arisen because the symptoms of each syndrome tended to wax and wane together, suggesting that they were more linked than they really were. Instead, they each separately reflected the general stress level I was experiencing (gross simplification).
> > Right this moment, I am using only taurine. I want to focus entirely on its effects. I generally use a great variety of supplements. Currently, I am also rather heavily medicated (for me). Zoloft (I went psychotic on the last SSRI I used, but we're running out of options), trimipramine, and temazepam.
>
> Taurine is indeed a good supplement to try. In the book 'Healing fear' I read that the effect of tryptophan can be enhanced by taking taurine. (Is that why you use it ?) Probably because it has an insulin-like effect on blood sugar levels. Dr Shipko of the Panic Disorder Institute also is an advocate of taurine: www.algy.com/pdi/FAQ//supplements.htmlIt does more than regulate blood sugar levels. Look at my first post in the taurine thread....
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040613/msgs/365023.html> I'm pretty sure you already knew, but maybe there's some new information.
Now, I haven't yet had time to delve into taurine metabolism more fully. In common with other people's experiences with nutritional interventions, my experience with taurine has been that the effect diminishes with time. That said, it is my perception of the acute effects that diminishes. I have no doubt that the physiological benefit continues, despite my perception.
I will want to consider what other nutrients most closely interact with taurine, to ensure that I also support those interacting elements. Supplementing with single nutrients, whatever they might be, invariably places stress upon inter-relating biochemical systems. You can't safely put a big motor on a small boat. If you upgrade the motor, you need to upgrade the boat, too.
Lar
Posted by Marty mc Fly on July 25, 2004, at 19:01:30
In reply to Re: 5-htp: How to make it work well » Marty mc Fly, posted by Larry Hoover on July 20, 2004, at 9:07:21
> > First of all, I want to say that I quit the 5-htp and went back on good old tryptophan... I take it 2,5 hours after lunch. Would that be a good time, or should I take it 2,5 hours after dinner ? How much do (or did) you take of it ?
>
> I use four grams, but I don't use it daily. As tryptophan is also a precursor to melatonin, some people find that drowsiness is associated with tryptophan supps. If that's the case, 1-2 hours before bed, empty stomach, with a sweet chaser, would be ideal.
Does it help you to use tryptophan on a non-daily basis ? Cause if the theory is right, you have to take in for at least 2 weeks in order to desensitize the sensitivity of the serotonin network, like when using an AD.
To have the number of serotonin receptors decreased by the extra amount of serotonin in your brain (thanks to the tryptophan) takes some time, doesn't it ?Sometimes if I use extra orange juice after I have taken the tryptophan the effect becomes greater. That would be logical because when large amounts of carbos are eaten, the body secretes insulin to lower the ensuing high blood sugar. Insulin clears from the blood most of the amino acids that compete with tryptophan. Tryptophan can reach the brain easier and more serotonin is produced.
But If I take an egg or milk after the use of tryptophan, I experience the same: greater effect. Why would this be ? Because eating more proteins only increases the competition for tryptophan to reach the brain.
Or would this be the tryptophan in the egg/milk that is producing the extra effect ? Does anyone have any idea ?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 15:49:05
In reply to Tryptophan turning into serotonin » Larry Hoover, posted by Marty mc Fly on July 25, 2004, at 19:01:30
> Does it help you to use tryptophan on a non-daily basis ?
I think it does. Most of the serotonin in your brain is stored, anyway. I suspect it increases the stores.
> Cause if the theory is right,
Which theory is that?
> you have to take in for at least 2 weeks in order to desensitize the sensitivity of the serotonin network, like when using an AD.
There is no clear evidence of how antidepressants work. No theory is yet proven.
> To have the number of serotonin receptors decreased by the extra amount of serotonin in your brain (thanks to the tryptophan) takes some time, doesn't it ?
I have no idea. I know that increasing the supply of tryptophan increases brain serotonin levels.
> Sometimes if I use extra orange juice after I have taken the tryptophan the effect becomes greater. That would be logical because when large amounts of carbos are eaten, the body secretes insulin to lower the ensuing high blood sugar. Insulin clears from the blood most of the amino acids that compete with tryptophan. Tryptophan can reach the brain easier and more serotonin is produced.That's correct.
> But If I take an egg or milk after the use of tryptophan, I experience the same: greater effect. Why would this be ? Because eating more proteins only increases the competition for tryptophan to reach the brain.
That doesn't fit with how I understand things, but whatever works, works.
> Or would this be the tryptophan in the egg/milk that is producing the extra effect ? Does anyone have any idea ?
There is really very little tryptophan in eggs, milk, or any other protein.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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