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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 131 to 155 of 412. Go back in thread:
Posted by Emme on March 8, 2006, at 20:43:44
In reply to Am I the only one?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 15:26:26
Wow. I poke in on admin and holee cow. I haven't read every post in this thread, but I think I've got the gist. I'm not too easily triggered, so the issue doesn't affect me greatly. But if other people say they would benefit from some sort of formalized alarm system, then why not? If it's easy to do (check a box, or write *T* for trigger), then I would imagine people would be willing to do it. That, and enough info in the subject line to know the category of trigger, and it should give sensitive people some extra roadsigns.
I see there's been some debate over voluntary vs. involuntary. And I admit I haven't given this deep thought. But if there's a policy on swe*r w*rds, maybe there's room for a policy on triggers.
emme
Posted by verne on March 8, 2006, at 22:13:27
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
My last "crack" at you was showering you with praise. I don't really know you but I have the greatest respect for you.
Perhaps, Bob, or to use another metaphor, a HORSE, let's say, was unwilling to drink from the purest stream of watered logic at an exact little riverside bank under a low hanging branch (trout look up and smile the way trout do, at this spot).
Let's say this horse, and even the herd, gets spooked by the repeated, and determined, efforts of a lone horse to force the entire herd to drink at this spot. Perhaps they don't know that spot or they have already drunk their full. Maybe they are on the other side of the stream and just not thirsty.
The only thing binary at the stream is whether Uncle Bob grabs me from behind. (grabs me- doesn't grab me)
you're still the best.
Verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
In reply to Re: Am I the only one? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 13:37:13
> Just knowing that it is the policy that someone cares whether or not I get triggered, and backs that up with some kind of authority, is very supportive. It helps me bounce back. It doesn't help me in the moment of finding the land-mine, but it helps afterwards.
It can be important to feel cared about by someone with authority. I understand that. I'm sorry you don't feel that here.
> > Plus, as I mentioned before, retroactive flagging could in fact be an option.
>
> And how do I know when that task has been completedYou can't know for sure, but on a busy board, give it a day?
> Would it be reasonable to toss a box of condoms into the lap of a woman who was seeking treatment after having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive man, and send her on her way, confident that all was well?
Would it have been reasonable, if condoms had been available, for her not to have used them because she considered them, um, barriers to participation?
> I don't want the job, as I said.
That's OK, others are willing to do it.
> I'm glad to see that you accept the idea of a core list of trigger subjects. That's big progress already.
Thanks, one step at a time...
> you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
Thing is, Larry, you triggered me.
Verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 0:35:15
In reply to Good Luck, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
As I mentioned before, you triggered me, twice. And I'm not triggered often. Nor would I normally even mention it, but I feel I have to here.
No it wasn't your suggestion but the methods used to get your point across.I'm not saying that to be cruel, or to play t*t-for tat. I'm saying it because it's the absolute truth. People don't always know what will trigger. We can't cover all of them.
And mine may be different from yours, but they cause me just as much pain, or discomfort.
The inference that I am somehow less sensitive because of this, is well I've said it before- triggering..
I'm ranting.
This whole thing.. just really got to me.I'm sorry this is just after Verne's but I was going to post it regardless, and I wasn't going to let unfortunate timing stop me.
Posted by sdb on March 9, 2006, at 0:48:35
In reply to Larry, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 0:35:15
>The thorne.com article might be closest to what >you're looking for? <guessing>
>Happy reading!
>LarDear Larry,
Could you keep an eye on the alternative babble?
People may need your worth advice/knowledge there.
~sdb
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
> > you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?I used an abstract structure, and expressly selected the definition I intended, and I don't know what more to do that still has anything the meaning I wanted to convey. I can't think of a rephrasing. Will an apology do? I'm sorry I made uncivil inferences about anybody.
Now, would you please just let me go?
I'm a stranger in a strange land. Why couldn't I simply accept that if people heard me cry out for help, that it would be enough? I never had anybody just listen to me about a selfish thing. There was always a gauntlet to run, and I never once made it through. So, I am unprepared for how to do that simple thing. I put on the whole TV campaign, and wrote speeches. I was gearing up to march on the Capital....
That was intended to be self-deprecating humour, the last post I made to Jen. My way of acknowledging what a PITA I can be.
I *need* to go now.
Lar
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:50:04
In reply to Good Luck, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
When this happens, step away from the keyboard. Don't give in to the little voice.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:51:28
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
How about "those who don't get triggered"
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
> without me.
>
> I'll look in in a few weeks'/months' time. I'll leave babblemail on.
>
> LarGod, you guys aren't going to trust a thing I say, considering how I often I change my mind, eh?
So much has taken place, in so short a time.
And, I'm back again, to being me. What do I mean by that?
I've almost got it in real time, almost. Which means I've almost got the hang of it.
I entered into discussion over something that has a particular magnitude in my life. I know it is true of others, as well. And I meant to speak rationally, and convincingly, about a process, an experience, that really is difficult to even frame in words.
Somewhere, along that path of discussion, I was joined by an indignant version of myself, but I didn't note his arrival. For a period of time, I was speaking with two voices simultaneously, but I, the one I call me, remained unaware of this. The me version would write something, and then I'd go to edit it. And I think that's where the indignant me snuck through, into print. During the edit. Sharp remarks and embellishments, unfiltered.
What you might observe in this thread, is me coming to realize what I'm saying now. Babble is an environment which encourages personal growth. I want it to be better. I want it to be safer. And you watched me do something I have never before done. You watched me grow.
I didn't do it with sensitivity to others. Ironic, considering my own topic of discussion. But sadly true.
So, I offer my utterly sincere and unconditional apology to anyone who was offended by my hyperbole, simile, metaphor, and just plain rhetorical assault upon your sensibilities.
Little Lar, or whatever you want to call the indignant one (teenager?), is no longer a secret to me. It may seem like an absurdity to you that I didn't know, as I'm sure you've seen him around before. <shrug> But, the thing is, I can't go back to a state of ignorance. The secret is out.
About this thread. About triggers. Please, do not think of me. Think about triggers. I've seen already that you do. I see the caring already.
And, I'm sincere, nothwithstanding that this is maybe the fourth time I've posted similarly, I do need to go.
TTFN,
Lar
Posted by Dinah on March 9, 2006, at 10:41:32
In reply to Re: I'm deeply sorry., posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
It happens to a lot of us, Lar. I certainly understand.
And Babble *can* be a place for growth in that. Or at least that's been my experience.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2006, at 10:58:13
In reply to Re: My apologies, fellow Babblers, posted by verne on March 5, 2006, at 11:08:49
I think this is an excellent idea. (Very good example, Verne!) The easier we make it for people to do something, the more likely it will be done.
Whether it's voluntary or mandatory...well, I haven't thought that through. If it becomes mandatory, I'd like to see a great deal more warnings before a block. What number? I don't know.
Also, I thought about setting up a Yahoo group (Open) survey about topics to try to identify the trigger topics most likely to be used. And perhaps if this format is implemented, there could be a category for "other" and then the person can elaborate a bit in the subject line? Is that still do-able, and is it a good idea?
gg
> Perhaps we could have a box or boxes for triggers that we could check on the "Enter Post" screen.
>
> [] self injury
>
> [] physical abuse
>
> [] alcohol or drug use
>
> Perhaps one universal box for triggers on the Enter screen and more specific boxes on the Revise and Submit Post screen.
>
> These additional boxes would be activated if the trigger box on the Enter Post screen were checked, in the same way movie and book links are created on the Submit Post screen with double quotes.
>
> Verne
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 13:28:40
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
I'm sorry Larry, I got hysterical last nite. PWD and more looped than usual, after taking an experimental dose of Kanna powder. Part of my diagnosis is histronic personality disorder. (I tend to up the rhetoric)
You're still fine in my book.
verne
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 13:40:01
In reply to Re: I'm deeply sorry., posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
I usually start with the indignant version, and then when I edit it I take out the snippy bits.
Heaven help me if I hit the wrong button.
-------
"Somewhere, along that path of discussion, I was joined by an indignant version of myself, but I didn't note his arrival. For a period of time, I was speaking with two voices simultaneously, but I, the one I call me, remained unaware of this. The me version would write something, and then I'd go to edit it. And I think that's where the indignant me snuck through, into print. During the edit. Sharp remarks and embellishments, unfiltered."
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 14:02:08
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » Larry Hoover, posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 13:40:01
> I usually start with the indignant version, and then when I edit it I take out the snippy bits.
>
> Heaven help me if I hit the wrong button.
>Oh geez, you guys edit?
maybe I should try that..
Posted by James K on March 9, 2006, at 14:05:47
In reply to checkboxes, posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2006, at 10:58:13
I been following all this discussion as it's happened, and would like to weigh in again. Back to Dr. Bob's original suggestion, I like the red letter thing he mentioned way back up better than the getting into the specific issue in boxes. I think the kind of post can be alluded to in the subject line.
What Larry is asking for makes more sense to me as I reflect on it more. By what Larry is asking for, I mean the fact that failure to warn will get warnings that could eventually lead to a block. But I would want a lot of leeway in the judgement calls for administration.
I think basically, it is the being blindsided by something major AND explicit where it wasn't expected and "shouldn't" be. I think it could be looked at as appropriateness as a component of civility.
First off, I think explicitness versus discussion is important. And, appropriate location would be important.
some examples: and the reason I put a trigger warning on this.
I am cutting myself right now. On Politics versus
After our session I felt like cutting. on Psychology.or
I was in the emergency room with blood all over me and obscenities carved in my chest. on Social
versus. I have issues with self injury. on Social.
I think "I'm wasted right this second drinking this and popping that" would be more appropriate on Substance, rather than less. (I realize that's where the people likely to be triggered are, but it's less of a suprise there.) I think that descriptions of bulimia or binging would be more appropriate on Eating and less on Social or Alternative.Half of the poetry on Writing is triggery. I don't know where my thinking is for that yet.
If someone asks about a med side effect on Babble, and the response is "wrist slashing". That's a kick in the butt that isn't fair to anyone.
By the way, most of these negative examples were me, so I'm something of an expert on the subject.
So I think, not censorship, but appropriateness, enforced loosely, but with the teeth of a block once the poster has had the education to really know better. And a check box for red lettering. And still the freedom to say whatever you need to within the existing rules of civility. And an explanation in the FAQ of why this is important to some of the community.
My best current thinking,
James K
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 14:08:05
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 14:02:08
I put my posts through several drafts to add as much unnecessary punctuation as possible. I also like to work in a few hyphens and horses - live or otherwise.
no horses were harmed in the making of this post.
v
Posted by Dinah on March 9, 2006, at 16:18:41
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » Larry Hoover, posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 13:40:01
Me too.
It's a great stress reliever.
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 16:36:20
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 14:08:05
work in a few hyphens and horses - live or otherwise.
>
> no horses were harmed in the making of this post.
>Well, If you're going to put horses in your posts make sure you have a "Trigger" warning.
Oh
Man,that was bad...
Posted by 10derHeart on March 9, 2006, at 16:42:17
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » verne, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 16:36:20
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 17:46:58
In reply to oh Gabbi ^^^^groan^^^^ ;-) (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by 10derHeart on March 9, 2006, at 16:42:17
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2006, at 21:26:12
In reply to Re: Try it the other way 'round » verne, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 16:36:20
Or will it lead to more groans?
gg
Posted by alesta on March 11, 2006, at 15:07:52
In reply to Am I the only one?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 15:26:26
> I feel like I'm all alone, out on a limb. Am I the only one to whom this makes any kind of a difference? I know there are dear souls no longer members of this board, to whom it would have mattered very very much.
>
> You really have no idea how much it matters, folks. It really really matters, and it is so very hard to talk about.
>
> Babble-break? No. Babble-broken.
>
> :-(
>
> Laroh my goodness...admin is like a box of chocolates...:)..but seriously..lar...i don't have enough time or energy to fully approach this whole issue, and i'm really not sure what to say at the moment...but..you're not the only one who has experienced that..i can say that...there have been times when i actually blocked parts of the screen with my hand whenever a particular poster posted. i guess that seems kind of silly :) anyway, i'm not sure if it was a ptsd issue, but i found their post titles potentially threatening to my mental state. they were vivid suicidal descriptions (to me). when i actually requested to the person that they be a bit 'easier' with their thread titles..well, i received no support, and actually one dissenter (is that a word lol)..i felt alone in how i felt...anyway...i hope you are all right. i have enough battles/complications brewing in my life currently, so i need to steer clear of this one for now..umm...must you leave? 'twould be a pity.:) what am i sayin, i ain't around much meself right now. btw, in these posts you are at your most eloquent.:) and passionate! definitely passionate.
aim:)
Posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 20:48:14
In reply to oh Gabbi ^^^^groan^^^^ ;-) (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by 10derHeart on March 9, 2006, at 16:42:17
Took me three days to get it. Boy, am I slow...
Posted by Tamar on March 12, 2006, at 17:51:28
In reply to Re: oh Gabbi ^^^^groan^^^^ ;-) » 10derHeart, posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 20:48:14
I’ve read through most of this and I hope it’s OK if I stick my oar in.
I’ve been involved in the Babble community for about a year and in that time I’ve tried pretty hard to get my head around what it means to be civil and what it means to be supportive and sensitive. I’m not by nature a very civil person but I seem to have managed OK here so far… And learning to work within the civility rules has had a useful impact on my real life relationships. I’m getting better at biting my tongue instead of cursing at people… So I like the culture of safety.
I’m in favour of mandatory trigger warnings. I think it’s more than just a courtesy to other babblers. It seems meaningless to have a requirement to be sensitive to the feelings of others without a requirement to be aware of the consequences of posting triggering material.
I don’t know about others, but I really hate feeling triggered. I’d much rather feel put down or accused, but although there are measures to deal with posters who might post things that could lead me to feel put down or accused, there’s no insistence on warning me of triggering content. And I’m not triggered very often, but when it does happen it takes a piece out of my life. I can spend hours rocking back and forth, unable to communicate with people, unable to distract myself and unable to stop feeling and remembering the pain.
I’ve considered the idea of waiting for other people to insert trigger warnings before I read. However, I don’t think it’s an adequate solution.
TRIGGER FOLLOWS: DO NOT PROCEED UNLESS YOU’RE FEELING UP TO IT.
I remember a few weeks ago reading a very graphic account by a person who had witnessed his partner being sexually assaulted by her father. There was no trigger warning and when I opened the post I was profoundly disturbed. I have some experience of being on the receiving end of sexual violence, and I am learning to deal with the triggers. However, when the subject is suddenly brought into my mind without preparation, I have a very unpleasant and very physical reaction to it. It’s as if I can feel it happening to me all over again. My flesh crawls with the feeling of unwanted touch; I can feel the pain and the humiliation and the fear as if the attack were happening to me again. And at the same time as feeling old feelings, I find myself trying to ward off the new and appalling images from someone else’s life story. It seems to add another dimension to the physical sensation of horror. It takes me a long time to separate the new images from my own memories, and to regain a sense of safety. The post I mentioned above was later given a trigger warning by someone else, but I’d already spent a couple of hours feeling violated.I also don’t think voluntary trigger warnings are the answer. We have a voluntary system at the moment, and in my experience it’s not sufficient. I know that some triggering content will get through in any system, but if trigger warnings are voluntary then people don’t really have to think much about the content of their posts. We have to think about whether the content of our posts is civil; if we also had to think about whether the content was triggering, people would probably be more likely to remember to add the warning. I think the biggest difficulty with a voluntary system is that sometimes people simply don’t know what may trigger others, or perhaps they don’t understand why an account of something in their own life might lead to a disproportionate reaction in someone else. A voluntary system doesn’t address that. I also don’t quite see how a voluntary system is better for the community as a whole than a mandatory system. Would voluntary civility rules be better for the community as a whole?
I don’t think it’s reasonable to live in a world where we try to cut ourselves off from every potential trigger by avoiding certain people or places or contexts. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect people to wait until every new thread has a reply before deciding it’s safe to read. I think to require this is to ask too much of those of us who get triggered, and it’s also a lot to ask of the rest of the community. To be honest, if the whole Babble community is to take responsibility for trigger warnings, wouldn’t it be simpler for such warnings to be mandatory?
I know it may be hard to agree on what subjects should be accompanied by trigger warnings, and some issues are more obviously triggering than others. No system is perfect and those of us who are triggered may well still be triggered if there is a mandatory system, especially those of us who are triggered by less common triggers (in my case sl*gs). But I still think a mandatory system would make things a little bit safer.
I think if we are required to be sensitive to each other’s feelings in general, then it’s no giant leap to be sensitive to each other’s feelings about triggering content. The civility rules are part of what seems to me to be a wider culture of safety, and I believe mandatory trigger warnings would enhance the sense of safety and would be an improvement on the status quo.
Tamar
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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