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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 66. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 26, 2021, at 21:19:05
Does increasing GABAergic neurotransmission lessen psychotic symptoms?
Posted by linkadge on July 27, 2021, at 7:45:22
In reply to GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 26, 2021, at 21:19:05
There is evidence that there are GABA deficits in certain brain regions (i.e. prefrontal cortex), but I don't think the GABA deficit is widespread. In some areas, GABA is likely elevated.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on July 27, 2021, at 7:48:31
In reply to GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 26, 2021, at 21:19:05
> Does increasing GABAergic neurotransmission lessen psychotic symptoms?
Not that I know of, but I am sure it can help indirectly, such as by calming anxiety triggered by paranoid delusions. Dopamine is mainly an inhibitory neurotransmitter, too, like GABA. Meanwhile, the glutamate theory of schizophrenia suggests that the stimulatory neurotransmitter glutamate is abnormally low at NMDA-subtype receptors.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 8:06:16
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on July 27, 2021, at 7:45:22
Well, that doesnt mean its pathological though right? The body does attempts to fix what is broken? With more or less success.
> In some areas, GABA is likely elevated.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 8:20:45
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 8:06:16
I got the idea because Lorazepam wipes it all out. Reliably.
Posted by undopaminergic on July 27, 2021, at 9:33:06
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 8:20:45
> I got the idea because Lorazepam wipes it all out. Reliably.
I thought the olanzapine and quetiapine already treated the psychosis fully? What's left to wipe out?
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 9:39:09
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by undopaminergic on July 27, 2021, at 9:33:06
Yeah seldomly there are/were some symtoms in that direction for an evening. Not for some time now. Its may be there to wipe out if I reduce them.
I probably need more medication. Duh!
Posted by linkadge on July 27, 2021, at 10:00:33
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 8:20:45
The GABA deficits (that I have read of) involve reductions in an enzyme called GAD67. GAD67 is involved in the synthesis of GABA. GAD67 is reduced in the prefrontal cortex of people with schizophrenia. The reduction in GAD67 has something to do with gene methylation.
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 13:41:42
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on July 27, 2021, at 10:00:33
Jeez, you really dig deep into that stuff. I must admit that I didnt reduce Neuroleptics because I couldnt sleep or was anxious. Not what they are designed for right? I undid the reduction because of those reasons several times. I really scored a hit against anxiety with liposomal GABA and lemon balm extract. So Im trying again.
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 14:04:52
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 13:41:42
How are you doing with that alternative regimen?
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 28, 2021, at 0:45:56
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 13:41:42
Sometimes, slight psychotic symptoms and anxiety are indistinguishable. Is this only me or is it common? I would say "psychosis" is a: when you lack insight, which I don't and b: when it lasts for a whole, which it doesn't. So it is psychotic symptoms/anxiety for a few ours and they are always gone the next day. That is what I was dealing with when reducing my Neuroleptics in the past. My liposomal GABA/ lemon balm combo has put a dent in that. So maybe now I can go ahead and reduce more easily.
The Neuroleptic treatment really result in hardcore side effects for me. I need to take Metformin to curb the sugar cravings, the Metformin leads to lowered Testosterone which again leads to psychological problems. That is pretty hardcore and not really healthy. Overweight, albeit not obesity thanks to Metformin. But as I said, it comes with a price.
My psychotic symptoms were med-fueled. I didn't develop them on my own. But still it was difficult to reduce the Neuroleptics even after discontinuing the offending drug.
Posted by linkadge on July 28, 2021, at 8:17:54
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 27, 2021, at 13:41:42
If AP withdrawal causes insomnia, you might try some feverfew. It blocks 5-ht2a (like many antipsychotics) which leads to sleep improvement.
Linkadge
Posted by Christ_empowered on July 28, 2021, at 11:31:20
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on July 28, 2021, at 8:17:54
some older research (60s-80s, I think) showed a reduction in symptoms (however that's measured?) when stable people on meds were given benzodiazepines on top. some shrinks still use long term sedatives with neuroleptics, both for symptoms control and to help keep the neuroleptic dosage lower and help with some adverse effects.
i skimmed over a review of old research...standard dose valium (40mgs/day?) was compared to prolixin in people headed towards psychosis (prodromal phase), and they both stabilized people.
guess I'm saying...with or without a bona fide gaba-ergic dysfunction of some sort, sedatives that act upon gaba may very well be helpful with some aspects of schizophrenia.
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 28, 2021, at 12:31:29
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Christ_empowered on July 28, 2021, at 11:31:20
Thanks.
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:33:04
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Christ_empowered on July 28, 2021, at 11:31:20
Thats cool. I do think it helps. Im much more comfortable around people. Almost totally comfortable like I was way back. 5-HTP, Liposomal GABA and Lemon Balm. If they really wanted to help people, they'd pay this stuff.
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:38:23
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:33:04
Non addictive anxiolytics... Im not saying everyone responds like I do, but even if it is just 30%. 30% percent mostly rehabilitated, wouldn't that be pretty awesome?
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:49:09
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:38:23
Not even the driving ability is impaired. I react well enough to unexpected situations in traffic. The only thing, 5-HTP does give me vivid dreams, mostly nightmaires. I suspect that its the Serotonin->Melatonin issue. But even that doesn't have to be a bad thing. I know whats up with my subconscious this way.
Posted by sigismund on July 29, 2021, at 4:13:49
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:49:09
Magnolia bark extract might help.
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 4:17:32
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by sigismund on July 29, 2021, at 4:13:49
Thank you, I'm taking a note.
Posted by undopaminergic on July 29, 2021, at 5:01:24
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 3:38:23
> Non addictive anxiolytics...
I think anxiolysis in itself is addictive. If it makes you feel better, you almost inevitably want to do it again.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 29, 2021, at 5:07:36
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by undopaminergic on July 29, 2021, at 5:01:24
Its a question of definition. If I get the same effect without wanting to escalate the dose, I am happy.
Posted by sigismund on July 29, 2021, at 5:08:49
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by undopaminergic on July 29, 2021, at 5:01:24
Things you can feel come on (like benzos) are likely to be (very?) much harder to stop than things that take ages (or for me only just work).
Zizyphus spinosa extract is another one.
Posted by linkadge on July 29, 2021, at 17:28:05
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by undopaminergic on July 29, 2021, at 5:01:24
>I think anxiolysis in itself is addictive. If it >makes you feel better, you almost inevitably want >to do it again.
I completely disagree. I think that anxiolysis is simply the removal of anxiety which does not need to be addictive. While short term stress / anxiety can be helpful / normal in some situations, prolonged anxiety is not normal (especially when it is not accompanied by any significant stressor).
As an analogy. I am not in any physical pain. This is normal. This doesn't mean I am high (like I would be on painkillers). If I took a painkiller I would still get high, even though I am not in pain. This argues that the euphoriant effect of painkillers (or benzos for that matter) are independent of their painkilling or anxiolytic effect.
Linkadge
Posted by porkpiehat on July 29, 2021, at 22:52:10
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on July 29, 2021, at 17:28:05
I'm not sure how helpful this is but I couldn't help thinking as I'm reading that, for me, tiny doses of klonopin help me when I feel zoned out on meds or can't think well.
I read somewhere that being on psych meds can flood the synapses, and a little GABA activity can negate some of the sedation or dissociative effects. I remember feeling pretty good on zoloft until my benzo wore off and then I felt horribly detached. When I took abilify I would just sit in my truck and stare out the window after arriving somewhere. .25 mgs of klonopin would snap me out.
Posted by undopaminergic on July 30, 2021, at 0:15:38
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on July 29, 2021, at 17:28:05
> As an analogy. I am not in any physical pain. This is normal. This doesn't mean I am high (like I would be on painkillers). If I took a painkiller I would still get high, even though I am not in pain. This argues that the euphoriant effect of painkillers (or benzos for that matter) are independent of their painkilling or anxiolytic effect.
>Yes, but when pain is present, painkilling is rewarding, relatively to baseline, and is one reason you'd want to use the drug again. I agree that "addictive" is perhaps not the right term, but I don't know one that fits better.
-undopaminergic
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