Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1113209

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Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 4, 2021, at 7:50:20

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 7:02:11

> Tiaprid: High Prolactin: Lower Testosterone! Back to topic please.

Yeah, if you are afraid of prolactin, avoid benzamides and risperidone; they require active transport to enter the CNS, so peripheral concentrations will be higher than central. The pituitary, which produces more prolactin the more dopamine is antagonised, is peripheral.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 9:10:49

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 4, 2021, at 7:50:20

So would you say the weight gain is linearly dose dependent?

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 4, 2021, at 10:18:03

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 9:10:49

> So would you say the weight gain is linearly dose dependent?
>

As I said in my first reply, no, I don't think it is linear -- I think the dose-response curve flattens with higher doses. To illustrate what I mean, let's say 25 mg achieves 33% central histamine H1 blockade, 50 mg achieves 50%, 100 mg does 75%, 150 mg 85%, and 200 90%, 500 mg 95%, 1000 mg 98%, etc.

Note that the numbers are just taken out of the air, but I think you see what I mean.

It's the same with methylphenidate and dopamine transporter transporter blockade.

I have a prescription of just 25 mg as needed for sleep! It's hard to believe such a dose would do anything, but I imagine the doctor has experience suggesting otherwise... or she wouldn't have prescribed it.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 10:31:59

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 4, 2021, at 10:18:03

Thanks. Do I understand it correctly, that I don't see as much of a weight gain reduction until I reach lowerish doses? 800 or 1000 doesn't make much of a difference, but 600 or 400 does more so?

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 10:32:58

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 4, 2021, at 10:18:03

Is the weight gain caused by histamine antagonism?

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Petermartin on January 4, 2021, at 13:33:58

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 10:32:58

Have you looked into Berberine at all? It's an OTC supplement that many diabetics use instead of Metformin. Some take it along with. Studies have shown both Metformin and Berberine can help limit antipsychotic weight gain.

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 20:39:01

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Petermartin on January 4, 2021, at 13:33:58

Thanks. But the problem is they both lower Testosterone. My level is already lower than I'd like. I do take Metformin anyway, but I don't want to lower T even more. I am looking into Chromium now.

> Have you looked into Berberine at all? It's an OTC supplement that many diabetics use instead of Metformin. Some take it along with. Studies have shown both Metformin and Berberine can help limit antipsychotic weight gain.
>
>

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 7:39:49

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 20:39:01

So it basically looks a bit like the 3 lines that are ontop of the others if x=dosage and y=weight gain?
https://images.app.goo.gl/gtrhjjhdXJgw6GjXA

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 7:50:47

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 4, 2021, at 10:31:59

> Is the weight gain caused by histamine antagonism?

That's how I understand it. If nothing else, it is sedative and stimulates appetite. Perhaps through a general sedative effect, it lowers the rate of metabolism, but I'm no expert on it. The more awake, excited, and active you are, the faster you burn calories. That's how exercise and stimulants work to lose weight.

> Thanks. Do I understand it correctly, that I don't see as much of a weight gain reduction until I reach lowerish doses? 800 or 1000 doesn't make much of a difference, but 600 or 400 does more so?
>

Yes, if my assumptions are correct.

It occurs to me now, that if I were you, I would probably experiment with low-dose (0.5--2 mg) flupenthixol, as it has been shown to have an antidepressant as well as antipsychotic effect. Another interesting possibility is beta2-adrenergic agonists for weight loss; they increase blood-flow to muscles, and probably for that reason, they are somewhat anabolic. They increase pulse, but are actually good for the heart (even better than beta1-antagonists), perhaps because the heart is a muscle and will benefit from enhanced perfusion.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 8:04:08

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 7:50:47

It could be like that. That would mean that I need some more patience! I will look into those drugs. With most drugs however, I find something detrimental that deters me from using them. I always look into things though!

I think it is 5ht2c antagonism that produces weight gain.

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 8:09:45

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 8:04:08

Yeah, flupenthixol has a higher dyskinesia risk than seroquel and adrenergic agonist probably causes anxiety. Already anxious! I think my best bet is to continue with Seroquel and gradually decrease it.

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 8:45:25

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 7:39:49

> So it basically looks a bit like the 3 lines that are ontop of the others if x=dosage and y=weight gain?
> https://images.app.goo.gl/gtrhjjhdXJgw6GjXA
>

My first thought was that my German wasn't up to the task. Then I realised you must mean *if* the X *were* dosage and the Y weight gain? Well then, yes, something like that.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 8:56:21

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 8:04:08

>
> I think it is 5ht2c antagonism that produces weight gain.

5-HT2C antagonism enhances dopamine release. I don't see why that would lead to weight gain, but on another note, 5-HT2C *agonism* is probably the mechanism through which SSRIs induce apathy. And despite this agonism, SSRI are known not infrequently to produce weight gain, especially paroxetine.

Anyway, as far as I've been able to determine, there are no good (ie. reasonably potent and selective) 5-HT2C antagonists clinically available. I've tried agomelatine and sertindole, but noticed no benefit, and I had to quit the sertindole because it clogged up my nasal passages like nothing I'd ever experienced before.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 9:19:44

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 8:45:25

Right. If it were. Subjunctive.

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 9:52:15

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 9:19:44

> Right. If it were. Subjunctive.

Oh, subjunctive! I had thought it was "conjunctive", because that is the term used in Swedish and German.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 10:02:20

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 8:09:45

> Yeah, flupenthixol has a higher dyskinesia risk than seroquel

Certainly, but we are talking about 0.5 up to 2 mg. With 4+ you easily get EPS, and in my experience also anorgasmia that is worse than that of SSRIs. To be conservative, I should probably say 0.5 up to 1 mg. Larger doses can also be anti-histaminergic, but at low doses it is more stimulating than sedating.

> and adrenergic agonist probably causes anxiety.

I don't think anxiety, but possibly nervousness, as from caffeine, and if you have adrenergic tremor. it may be worsened.

> Already anxious! I think my best bet is to continue with Seroquel and gradually decrease it.
>

What happens if you "go too fast"? Do you get paranoia or hallucinations?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 10:05:20

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 9:52:15

Subjunctive is the english equivalent of the german Konjunktiv. It isnt always used thd same way, but it is similar. This has been my course of study for a year. Translation (English-German). I have a motivation problem though. The other students are moving at lightspeed compared to me.

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 10:07:11

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 5, 2021, at 10:02:20

Paranoia

> What happens if you "go too fast"? Do you get paranoia or hallucinations?
>
> -undopaminergic
>

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Christ_empowered on January 5, 2021, at 12:48:31

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 10:07:11

just jumping in here...

i don't think it is a linear relationship. a former psychiatrist told me she had given up issuing new prescriptions for olanzapine, mainly because she'd seen even low doses cause serious problems. frightening tidbit: she told me that she'd seen zyprexa cause metabolic disorders, even without massive weight gain. --stay up on your lab work, please--

all of the tranquilizers are associated with at least a bit of weight gain, except maybe moban and geodon, both of which have other, serious adverse effects for people/patients to contend with, of course.

have you ever been given a trial of the newer d2 partial agonists? they're -not- wonder drugs or anything, but maybe worth a shot, perhaps?

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:57:16

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Christ_empowered on January 5, 2021, at 12:48:31

I do.

> . --stay up on your lab work, please--

Yeah, Abilify=Akathisia. I'm not trying conventional psychmeds anymore. I have tried many many many and what I have learned is: Don't try!

> have you ever been given a trial of the newer d2 partial agonists? they're -not- wonder drugs or anything, but maybe worth a shot, perhaps?

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:58:01

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:57:16

For myself. Others may be different.

> and what I have learned is: Don't try!

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:17:52

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:58:01

It is possible that a psychmed helps, but from my experience it is highly unlikely. It is much more likely to do damage if risks and side effects are taken into account. This is my personal experience if we are speaking about me.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:32:57

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:17:52

And replacing one problem with another is not help!!!

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 6, 2021, at 3:09:22

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:17:52

> It is possible that a psychmed helps, but from my experience it is highly unlikely. It is much more likely to do damage if risks and side effects are taken into account. This is my personal experience if we are speaking about me.
>

OK, but you are already taking 5! If these are helping, why is it so unlikely you'd find another?

That said, 5 sounds like enough.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?

Posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 3:19:37

In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 6, 2021, at 3:09:22

Well, 3 of them are extremely low dose. Lithium is basically a supplement or me at 225mg, and 75mg Trazodone and 37.5 Venlafaxine. It is the only thing that helps, because the dose is so low that it doesn't replace one problem with another. If I took more, I wouldn't consider it as help because then other problems would kick in. So that is luck that it works (a little bit) at such a low dose

Seroquel and Zyprexa in my regimen are a result of med induced psychosis from Nardil. They work, but they do cause a lot of additional problems!

I think my best bet is to further slowly reduce Seroquel. I know what effects and side effects to expect. I am trying to tackle the weight gain with supplements and careful dosage reduction. And lifestyle!



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