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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 11:03:03
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 12, 2020, at 9:45:03
> Have you? Do you know where? Id like to read. Both are regularly checked in my case and fine(so far). If what you have read is true I may go 107.5 Do they mean low dose by augmentation? I wont go off though. Being suicidal is no fun and probably more dangerous!
>
> > I have read that long term Lithium augmentation might damage adrenal glands and kidneys...!?
>
>High dose lithium can adversely affect the health of the kidneys, but this is only in the long (years) term and only with high doses. High doses are often needed to control bipolar disorder, so it is a troublesome effect, which needs to be weighed against how dangerous the manias are. An alternative is antipsychotics (particularly if sedative), but they can cause tardive dyskinesia in the long term. I don't know about anticonvulsants, but the members of this class of medications are typically very different from each other.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 12, 2020, at 11:06:39
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 11:03:03
Right, but using it as a supplement would be much safer right? Low dose.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 11:45:38
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 12, 2020, at 11:06:39
> Right, but using it as a supplement would be much safer right? Low dose.
Yes, it is dose-dependent. You can even die from too high a dose. Then again, that is true of table salt too.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 12, 2020, at 11:52:58
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 11:45:38
Right. Lithium is unique though because it is the only med that is proven to prevent suicide to a significant degree. And you don't need much to achieve that outcome. Or is there another med like that, that I am not aware of?
Posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 11:55:07
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 11:45:38
> > Right, but using it as a supplement would be much safer right? Low dose.
>
> Yes, it is dose-dependent. You can even die from too high a dose. Then again, that is true of table salt too.
>That's why they monitor blood lithium levels.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 12:21:16
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 12, 2020, at 11:52:58
> Right. Lithium is unique though because it is the only med that is proven to prevent suicide to a significant degree. And you don't need much to achieve that outcome. Or is there another med like that, that I am not aware of?
>There is nothing quite like lithium.
But if you ask me, personally, I used to find stimulants dramatically effective. From lying in bed, apathetic, thinking about ways to kill myself, within 5-15 minutes of a dose of a stimulant, I was feeling that life was interesting and getting involved in doing stuff -- at least *thinking* interesting, constructive (and indeed non-suicidal) thoughts, but often reading and writing, even getting active on forums like this.
It's been years since I used stimulants, but haven't been suicidal for years, either. Currently I'm benefitting from trimipramine.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 2:32:23
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 12, 2020, at 12:21:16
Right, the question is just, does it wear off?? And: Is there a significant reduction of suicidal thoughts in the whole population. The anti suicidal effect from Lithium doesn't wear off. At least not for me. Thank goodness.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 3:00:27
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 2:32:23
> Right, the question is just, does it wear off??
Of course it does. Sometimes right away as the drug concentrations diminish, and sometimes, it can take a while (days, even weeks). When it wears off, you can simply take another dose, but you should be careful about sleep deficit -- it made me psychotic.
> And: Is there a significant reduction of suicidal thoughts in the whole population. The anti suicidal effect from Lithium doesn't wear off. At least not for me. Thank goodness.
>Do you mean the anti-suicidal effects don't wear off even if you quit lithium?
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 3:19:27
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 3:00:27
If I quit Lithium the suicidal thoughts return. Thats how I know that it works. What I mean is that I do not need to escalate the dosage in order to get these effects and they don't weaken over time. And I am not inclined towards raising the dosage. I bet that stimulants are different. I would avoid if possible. But sometimes you need to get someone out of the hole with brute force. Like people who don't leave the house and watch TV 14 hours a day. I know someone like that. It is very unfortunate. He is hospitalized now and I really hope that they will actually do something about it.
> Do you mean the anti-suicidal effects don't wear off even if you quit lithium?
>
> -undopaminergic
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 3:50:45
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 3:19:27
He may kill himself if he doesn't get something effective soon. Yeah, he is in a hospital, but that doesn't mean that they can read his mind.
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 4:03:33
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 3:19:27
Are you trying to argue that Stimulants are no more addictive than Lithium?
Posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 4:57:04
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 3:19:27
> What I mean is that I do not need to escalate the dosage in order to get these effects and they don't weaken over time. And I am not inclined towards raising the dosage. I bet that stimulants are different.
>
> Are you trying to argue that Stimulants are no more addictive than Lithium?
>No, a lot of people get addicted to drugs like cocaine and methamphetamine. I would, however, say that they are no more dangerous than lithium (at least at high doses). But lithium and stimulants are dangerous in different ways.
I guess the stimulants (at least those I used) work best the first time, and you need a lesser dose. However, for me, pretty soon, I found a stable dose that was still effective in keeping suicidal thoughts at bay.
> I would avoid if possible. But sometimes you need to get someone out of the hole with brute force.
>Right. Incidentally, SSRIs (at least sertraline) made me more apathetic so that the risk of suicidal actions was diminished. It seemed they made me more indifferent too (part of the apathy syndrome?), and so, I guess I felt a little better, but they increased my tendency to stay in bed.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 5:02:54
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 4:57:04
Certainly better than not leaving the house and watching TV for 14 hours, and better than suicide. But then maybe people would just claim to be suicidal in order to get high. It is difficult.. Not giving them could be wrong and giving them could be wrong.
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 5:07:53
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 5:02:54
I know many people who stay at a stable lowish dose of alcohol for decades. The difference is probably that they like alcohol more than I like Lithium. They look forward to their dose of wine all day.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 5:26:10
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 5:02:54
> But then maybe people would just claim to be suicidal in order to get high.
>People claim all sorts of things to be given drugs. Some of them are good at it. Suicidality could be a good theme. Claiming ADD is probably the most popular story.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 5:30:59
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 5:26:10
I get what you are saying. I haven't thought about it like that before. Are you currently on stimulants?
Posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 5:44:50
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 5:30:59
> I get what you are saying. I haven't thought about it like that before. Are you currently on stimulants?
>No, in part because it would get me into trouble with doctors and family, and in part because my most recent doses of stimulants were disappointing -- it hardly helped at all (eg. to get out of bed). It is possible that the combination of a cocaine-like stimulant (like methylphenidate) with a high dose (something like 500 mg) of caffeine might still work for me, but I get serious tremor from that (and so, it will look kind of obvious to others that I've taken something).
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 7:14:47
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 5:44:50
It sounds like its not a solution for you then.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 7:22:26
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 7:14:47
> It sounds like its not a solution for you then.
At present, no, but I don't have much need for it either. I have no suicidal thoughts, I'm in good mood, and the apathy is not all that bad.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 7:29:38
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 7:22:26
Cool. I too struggle with getting many things done each day, but it is much better than baseline was. Could be called slight apathy I guess.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 13, 2020, at 7:53:44
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 13, 2020, at 7:29:38
> Cool. I too struggle with getting many things done each day, but it is much better than baseline was. Could be called slight apathy I guess.
>The poverty of thought it causes is probably the worst part for me. Stimulants used to help a great deal with this.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Skeletor on December 13, 2020, at 15:58:57
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 12, 2020, at 9:45:03
> Have you? Do you know where? Id like to read. Both are regularly checked in my case and fine(so far). If what you have read is true I may go 107.5 Do they mean low dose by augmentation? I wont go off though. Being suicidal is no fun and probably more dangerous!
>
> > I have read that long term Lithium augmentation might damage adrenal glands and kidneys...!?
>
>I have read it a few dozen times for the last few years, but right now I can't give you a specific source...
I myself am somewhat worried when it comes to Lithium because my family is genetically f*ck*d when it comes to kindney-disease(s), dialysis and so on....
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 14, 2020, at 2:14:28
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal » Lamdage22, posted by Skeletor on December 13, 2020, at 15:58:57
Did you read that about low dose or about regular dose?
> I have read it a few dozen times for the last few years, but right now I can't give you a specific source...
Posted by undopaminergic on December 14, 2020, at 3:08:20
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by Lamdage22 on December 14, 2020, at 2:14:28
It's the dose that makes the poison. Many people who don't explicitly take lithium get a daily low dose from food and drinking water.
I mentioned that table salt in excess is toxic. Incidentally, lithium chloride has been used as a healthier substitute for salt. Ordinary table salt is sodium chloride, and potassium chloride is also used. All three of the metals are called earth alkali metals and are in the same group in the periodic table of elements.
Lithium actually mimics sodium in the body.
> Did you read that about low dose or about regular dose?
>
> > I have read it a few dozen times for the last few years, but right now I can't give you a specific source...
>
>
>-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on December 14, 2020, at 14:12:30
In reply to Re: lithium and lamictal, posted by undopaminergic on December 14, 2020, at 3:08:20
But they certainly don't get as much as I do. 225 Lithium Carbonate.
> It's the dose that makes the poison. Many people who don't explicitly take lithium get a daily low dose from food and drinking water.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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