Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1112765

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Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by PeterMartin on December 3, 2020, at 18:15:02

New study out today (12/3/2020): Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depressive disorder

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-12-gut-microbiome-disturbances-linked-major.html

Maybe down the line fecal transplants could help for MDD? I'd gladly eat sh!t and.....well....to happy :)

Article:
===
A team of researchers from several institutions in China, and two in the U.S. reports a link between human gut microbiome disturbances and major depressive disorder (MDD). In their paper published in the journal Science Advances, the group describes their study of fecal samples from MDD patients and control groups.

MDD is a mood disorder that is characterized by persistent feelings of sadness or lack of interest in ordinary life stimuli. It is believed to have a biological origin and thus is not simply a reaction to events. In this new effort, the researchers suggest they have found evidence that links problems with the gut microbiome to symptoms of MDD.

The work involved collecting 311 fecal samples from 156 people with MDD and 155 people that did not have the disorder. Each of the samples underwent a genetic analysis to identify microbes and other material found in the samples. The team also performed large-scale gas chromatography-mass spectrometry on the samples to learn more about their makeup.

The researchers found differences in some of the components in the samples between those with and without MDD. More specifically, they found 47 bacterial species that were different, along with 50 fecal metabolites and three bacteriophages that were also different. As part of their findings, they also found higher levels of members of the bacterial species of the genus Bacteroides in MDD patients and lower levels of those that belonged to the species Eubacterium and Blautia. They suggest that MDD may be characterized by microbiome problems. The team also noted that higher levels of Bacteroides in the microbiome might help to explain why so many MDD patients have heightened levels of cytokines and associated inflammation compared to the general populace.

The researchers note that the traditional way to diagnose MDD in patients is through the interview processtheir findings suggest that it might also be possible to test for the presence of certain elements in the gut microbiome as part of any screening efforts to confirm the disorder.

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres PeterMartin

Posted by jay2112 on December 4, 2020, at 11:43:48

In reply to Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 3, 2020, at 18:15:02

> New study out today (12/3/2020): Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depressive disorder
>
> https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-12-gut-microbiome-disturbances-linked-major.html
>
> Maybe down the line fecal transplants could help for MDD? I'd gladly eat sh!t and.....well....to happy :)
>

LOL...Well, I have experimented with pro-biotics for many years, with somewhat inconsistent results. I have tried "Stress" formulas, strains for depression, ones for anxiety, all of very good value, from reputable companies (and a hell of a lot of cash...christ these things are expensive!!)It really is hard to gauge the results.

Jay

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by Hugh on December 4, 2020, at 13:16:40

In reply to Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 3, 2020, at 18:15:02

I've tried numerous probiotics. My favorite has been kefir (fermented milk). I'm interested in trying Zenflore. It's available in the UK, Ireland, Germany, but not in the US.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/worlds-first-psychobiotic-food-supplement-13820955

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/ucc-scientists-discover-probiotic-that-reduces-stress-1.2396399

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 1:10:33

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by Hugh on December 4, 2020, at 13:16:40

I do poorly w/ probiotics (and prebiotics). I've tried a few different brands including some of the one w/ tons of strains that need to be refrigerated etc.

I don't think current day stuff is really going to help all that much.

Perhaps more specific probiotics (or freeze dried "poop pills" even) could be gamechangers.

The research is still kinda new.

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by Hugh on December 5, 2020, at 15:24:25

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 1:10:33

I'm going to try the antibiotic rifaximin for two weeks to see if it improves my mood. Rifaximin is poorly absorbed, so it stays in the gut and is extremely unlikely to cause antibiotic resistance or C. diff. In fact, it's used to treat C. diff and IBS and SIBO. These rifaximin studies have been done or are currently underway:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13311-018-0627-2

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03856359

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 22:09:01

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by Hugh on December 5, 2020, at 15:24:25

> I'm going to try the antibiotic rifaximin for two weeks to see if it improves my mood. Rifaximin is poorly absorbed, so it stays in the gut and is extremely unlikely to cause antibiotic resistance or C. diff. In fact, it's used to treat C. diff and IBS and SIBO. These rifaximin studies have been done or are currently underway:
>
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13311-018-0627-2
>
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03856359

I've never heard of rifaximin. Very interesting! Please post with how it works out!

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 22:12:34

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 22:09:01

Wow rifaximin is expensive!! :)

The lowest GoodRx price for the most common version of Xifaxan is around $1,772.98, 18% off the average retail price of $2,179.36.

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by linkadge on December 6, 2020, at 7:51:01

In reply to Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 3, 2020, at 18:15:02

I just posted a thought about this below.

Turmeric (for example) apparently isn't absorbed readily into the bloodstream. However, is it possible that turmeric (or other medicinal herbs) alter gut bacteria (simply by passing through the digestive system) in a way reduces systemic inflammation?

Linkadge

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by linkadge on December 6, 2020, at 8:05:16

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 22:12:34

I recently tried a good quality probiotic with some positive effects (but like yourself, a little bit inconsistent).

Again, it's hard to tease apart the chicken vs. egg in terms of gut bacteria and mental health. For example, increased stress itself might promote the growth of certain bacteria vs. others, which then has a reciprocal effect on brain function.

Taking a probiotic will introduce new strains, but this doesn't necessarily mean that those strains will 'take' and become predominant. Other strains want to live too (turf warfare).

What may be more important is whether the gut environment is conducive to one bacterial strain vs. another. To this extent, stress and diet also likely play a major role.

There is likely a bidirectional relationship between mood and gut bacteria. Taking a probiotic may help to shift the balance, but may not be enough. Perhaps (although I don't recommend) wiping out the gut bacteria with an antibiotic, and then re-introducing certain strains would be beneficial.

I put forth the theory too that the supplement GABA may be working predominantly outside the brain. It could reduce inflammation in the digestive system and circulation, which could then create knock on effects in the brain. Certain gut bacteria turn GABA into butyrate (which does cross the blood brain barrier) which has antidepressant and anxiolytic effects. In fact, it may also have anticonvulsant effects (sharing some properties to vapropate). I think he gut can also manufacture valeric acid (which is also present in valerian).

So, perhaps depending on the specific clinical state, some strains may be more beneficial (i.e. antidepressant vs. anti-anxiety, or even anticonvulsant).

Again, I don't think the gut bacteria hypothesis explains all depression. I.e. genes probably play another major role. However, altered gut bacteria could be a mechanism by which some of the suffering could be alleviated.

Another thought is this. Could some psychiatric medications be working (or harming) via their effects on gut bacteria??

Linkadge

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres

Posted by undopaminergic on December 6, 2020, at 9:27:26

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by linkadge on December 6, 2020, at 8:05:16

>
> Certain gut bacteria turn GABA into butyrate (which does cross the blood brain barrier) which has antidepressant and anxiolytic effects.
>

Do you know whether it exerts its effects through GABA- or GHB-receptors? Or does it have other targets independent of those?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres PeterMartin

Posted by Hugh on December 7, 2020, at 11:37:45

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres, posted by PeterMartin on December 5, 2020, at 22:12:34

I ordered rifaximin from a pharmacy outside the US. I paid $240 (plus shipping) for 84 200 mg pills. Right now I'm waiting for my order to clear US Customs.

I'm going to take 400 mg three times a day for two weeks. Some people take a lower dose, and some people go as high as 550 mg three times a day. The people in the Alzheimer's study at Duke University are taking 550 mg twice a day.

> Wow rifaximin is expensive!! :)
>
> The lowest GoodRx price for the most common version of Xifaxan is around $1,772.98, 18% off the average retail price of $2,179.36.

 

Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres jay2112

Posted by Skeletor on December 13, 2020, at 8:45:39

In reply to Re: Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depres PeterMartin, posted by jay2112 on December 4, 2020, at 11:43:48

> > New study out today (12/3/2020): Gut microbiome disturbances linked to major depressive disorder
> >
> > https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-12-gut-microbiome-disturbances-linked-major.html
> >
> > Maybe down the line fecal transplants could help for MDD? I'd gladly eat sh!t and.....well....to happy :)
> >
>
> LOL...Well, I have experimented with pro-biotics for many years, with somewhat inconsistent results. I have tried "Stress" formulas, strains for depression, ones for anxiety, all of very good value, from reputable companies (and a hell of a lot of cash...christ these things are expensive!!)It really is hard to gauge the results.
>
> Jay

What probiotic compositions can you recommend? For Depression and Anxiety...


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