Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1112141

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Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?

Posted by undopaminergic on October 2, 2020, at 9:22:23

In reply to Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?, posted by Lamdage22 on October 2, 2020, at 8:17:05

> Haha, yeah you are doing more than me in terms of endurance then!

You mean walking?

> Hmm. I understand, sticky and stuff, but that shouldn't keep you from working out. With weightlifting, you will get sweaty if you want to improve.
>

I do it as it comes naturally. I need the rest in between exercises, to allow my strength to recover. Even with rest in between, usually I can do the most reps the first time through.

> Doesn't your gym have safety bars? If you don't use clamps for the weights you can let the plates fall off if you lower one side of the bar, the other side will come down then, too.
>

I kind of figured that technique out, but I haven't got a chance to use it yet.

I don't know what safety bars are.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 2, 2020, at 10:22:32

In reply to Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?, posted by undopaminergic on October 2, 2020, at 9:22:23

https://jk-sportvertrieb.de/atx-power-rack-prx-720-hoehe-215-cm

The horizontal bars there. You can adjust them. I havent been able to exercise for years. For me, not a med change brought this change but changing nutrition adding supplements.

 

Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 2, 2020, at 10:23:55

In reply to Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?, posted by Lamdage22 on October 2, 2020, at 10:22:32

I mean I wasnt able to exercise. Now I am and not because of changes to meds.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2020, at 16:43:05

In reply to Re: BuSpar for social anxiety?, posted by Lamdage22 on October 2, 2020, at 10:23:55

I completely disagree with the notion that anxiety relief needs to be addictive. Healthy people are neither chronically depressed nor anxious. Mentally healthy people also tend to live longer than those with chronic depression or anxiety. Chronic anxiety (in the absence of a real threat) is not healthy for an organism. Homeostasis is not congruent with chronic anxiety. A number of supplements I take (i.e. magnesium, niacin, CBD, chamomile etc.) help me to relieve anxiety. They have worked long term for me and I haven't needed to ramp up doses simply to get the same effect. Low dose effexor also helps me, and I have not had to increase the dose.

So, I would disagree with the notion that anything that relives anxiety is addictive and stops working.

Now if the med makes you high, and that high is simply masking anxiety, then yes you will grow tolerant to that because a high is also not homeostasis.


Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 3, 2020, at 5:12:27

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2020, at 16:43:05

How does Chamomille feel? It takes the edge off? Is there anything to look for when buying a supplement? I don't want to go through the trouble of making tea.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » Lamdage22

Posted by linkadge on October 3, 2020, at 7:19:34

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 3, 2020, at 5:12:27

I just make the tea with organic chamomile. I've never taken it in capsule form. It helps. Nothing (by itself) provides me with 100% relief. However, my 'stack' works quite well.

Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 3, 2020, at 8:35:03

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on October 3, 2020, at 7:19:34

Same here, you have to take what you can get

> Nothing (by itself) provides me with 100% relief. However, my 'stack' works quite well.
>
> Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 5, 2020, at 0:30:17

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2020, at 16:43:05

> I completely disagree with the notion that anxiety relief needs to be addictive. Healthy people are neither chronically depressed nor anxious.
>

The situation is quite different after you have been depressed or anxious for a long time. Maybe addiction is the wrong term, but you can easily get dependent on remedies (including drugs) that make you feel better.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:26:26

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 5, 2020, at 0:30:17

The way I see it is that dependence and addiction need to be seperated. For example I am dependent on Neuroleptics, without them I cannot function at all. However I don't feel the urge to take more and the effect is stable. In that way there is no tolerance buildup. Now addiction is a whole different thing. There is the urge to take more and there is tolerance, so you need more for the same effect which you crave.

I wonder where Aloradine would fit in.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:49:19

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:26:26

Addictive drugs mask the problem and replace it with being high, dependence inducing drugs make you normal and then you depend on them for being normal. I dont think you can get addicted to being normal.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:55:13

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:49:19

These are my thoughts anyway. Some drugs are a bit of both and there is a seamless transition.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 6, 2020, at 0:27:25

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:26:26

> The way I see it is that dependence and addiction need to be seperated. For example I am dependent on Neuroleptics, without them I cannot function at all. However I don't feel the urge to take more and the effect is stable. In that way there is no tolerance buildup. Now addiction is a whole different thing. There is the urge to take more and there is tolerance, so you need more for the same effect which you crave.
>

Tolerance is a separate, independent matter, which can feature in dependence too. I think the essential point in addiction is to take the drug compulsively in spite of adverse consequences (eg. for body or economy) and/or despite a lack of reward.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 6, 2020, at 0:31:23

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:49:19

> Addictive drugs mask the problem and replace it with being high, dependence inducing drugs make you normal and then you depend on them for being normal. I dont think you can get addicted to being normal.
>

Maybe not, but you easily get attached to it and begin take it for granted. And then when you don't have it (eg. if you go back to being depressed), you crave it.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on October 8, 2020, at 16:33:14

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 5, 2020, at 0:30:17

>The situation is quite different after you have >been depressed or anxious for a long time. Maybe >addiction is the wrong term, but you can easily >get dependent on remedies (including drugs) that >make you feel better.

Right, but you have to separate something that selectively addresses the root problem, vs something that just activates your reward system and makes you temporarily forget about your anxiety.

Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » Lamdage22

Posted by linkadge on October 8, 2020, at 16:34:34

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 5, 2020, at 6:26:26

>I am dependent on Neuroleptics, without them I >cannot function at all. However I don't feel the >urge to take more and the effect is stable

Sure, but everybody is dependent on something. For example, healthy people are dependent on their thyroid gland producing adequate levels of thyroid.

Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:05:48

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on October 8, 2020, at 16:33:14

> >The situation is quite different after you have >been depressed or anxious for a long time. Maybe >addiction is the wrong term, but you can easily >get dependent on remedies (including drugs) that >make you feel better.
>
> Right, but you have to separate something that selectively addresses the root problem, vs something that just activates your reward system and makes you temporarily forget about your anxiety.
>
> Linkadge

While I agree that that is a meaningful distinction in itself, I don't see how it makes any difference in practice, as to whether you get dependent or not. In both cases, there is symptom mitigation, regardless of whether it works on a deep or superficial level. Symptom relief is, in relative terms, rewarding.

As an example from my own experience, let us say (m)ethylphenidate is a stimulant and trimipramine is an antidepressant. Let us also say, for the purposes of this exercise, that trimipramine works on the root cause and the stimulant is just, for lack of a better word, stimulating. Even if this were true, I don't see how it makes a difference, from the point of view of my desiring to continue either treatment.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:18:23

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on October 8, 2020, at 16:34:34

> >I am dependent on Neuroleptics, without them I >cannot function at all. However I don't feel the >urge to take more and the effect is stable
>
> Sure, but everybody is dependent on something. For example, healthy people are dependent on their thyroid gland producing adequate levels of thyroid.
>

Of thyroid *hormones* (T3 & T4), as opposed to tissue (that could turn into goiter).

Sometimes, thyroid hormone is used as an antidepressant, or perhaps more commonly, to augment other antidepressive treatments. Any exeriences with this, anyone?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 9, 2020, at 8:30:03

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:18:23

Yeah T3 is like drinking too much coffee if you are healthy. Not good for anxiety.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:46:59

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 9, 2020, at 8:30:03

> Yeah T3 is like drinking too much coffee if you are healthy. Not good for anxiety.
>

Caffeine does not cause anxiety as far as I'm aware. Nervousness, yes, like butterflies in the stomach, but anxiety is something worse.

That said, different individuals respond differently. Also, increased alertness (it is a stimulant, after all) can make you more aware or more sensitive to pre-existent anxiety.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by Lamdage22 on October 9, 2020, at 9:01:15

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:46:59

Hm yeah, it is not good if you are anxious to begin with.

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on October 10, 2020, at 15:24:12

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:05:48

>Even if this were true, I don't see how it makes >a difference, from the point of view of my >desiring to continue either treatment.

Yes, I would agree with that, so long as both can work in the long term. Studies on the ability of ritalin to improve depression in the long term are lacking. Most traditional antidepressants don't directly activate the reward system. They can (over time) improve the functionality of the reward system, but they probably do this through complex mechanisms. Over time, most traditional antidepressants reduce brain inflammation, reduce microglial activation, normalize the HPA axis, improve neurogenesis etc. Ritalin shares none of these properties. So, yes, at the end of the day if it 'works' it doesn't really matter. The caveat is whether ritalin can work long term, and whether (over time) it improves the course of illness or worsens it.

Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on October 10, 2020, at 15:26:14

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 9, 2020, at 8:46:59

Caffeine does reduce GABAergic function. So, if your glutamate / gaba ratio is already high, caffeine likely won't help.

1-2 cups a day for me is fine, but after this I start to feel a bit strung out / jittery.

Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » Lamdage22

Posted by linkadge on October 10, 2020, at 15:27:18

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by Lamdage22 on October 9, 2020, at 9:01:15

Just to add, response to caffeine also likely depends on liver enzymes. Some people have 2x the blood level because their bodies metabolize it more slowly.

Linkadge

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive

Posted by undopaminergic on October 11, 2020, at 1:29:38

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on October 10, 2020, at 15:24:12

> >Even if this were true, I don't see how it makes >a difference, from the point of view of my >desiring to continue either treatment.
>
> Yes, I would agree with that, so long as both can work in the long term. Studies on the ability of ritalin to improve depression in the long term are lacking. Most traditional antidepressants don't directly activate the reward system. They can (over time) improve the functionality of the reward system, but they probably do this through complex mechanisms. Over time, most traditional antidepressants reduce brain inflammation, reduce microglial activation, normalize the HPA axis, improve neurogenesis etc. Ritalin shares none of these properties. So, yes, at the end of the day if it 'works' it doesn't really matter. The caveat is whether ritalin can work long term, and whether (over time) it improves the course of illness or worsens it.
>
> Linkadge
>

One difference is how fast they act. (M)ethylphenidate works within minutes, and trimipramine takes days and weeks. The stimulant can have withdrawal effects (lethargy) or it can have some positive after-effects (feeling better for some days), but generally it is effective only for the duration of its direct actions. Relapse often (if not usually) happens with antidepressants too, but it takes longer.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive » undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on October 11, 2020, at 7:48:52

In reply to Re: Anxiolysis does not need to be addictive, posted by undopaminergic on October 11, 2020, at 1:29:38

This is true. Some studies show that there are structural improvements (i.e. hippocampal volume) with traditional antidepressants, over time. They can also be neuroprotective. I don't know if the same can be said for stimulants.

Ketamine seems to have a mixture of neurotrophic effects and immediate activation of reward systems. Who knows the relative contribution of these two. However, I would say that (on average) a single dose of ketamine would last longer than a single dose of a stimulant or opioid (for most depressed patients). So, there is something more going on here than simply activating your reward system.

Linkadge


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