Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1110215

Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by cyb3rk4nt on May 18, 2020, at 3:06:00

Every time I've read the interactions for a drug that acts by either boosting and/or blocking the reuptake of both dopamine and norepinephrine, the biggest warning is to not take it at all within two weeks of taking an MAOI. This has interested me for a while now since I've been on Wellbutrin XL, an SNDRI, for 4 months now and adderall for like 3, (I only take the adderall like twice a week lol). Sorry if the question is dumb but most of the easily accessed info online only warns against it but rarely talks about the actual chemical reaction that would happen if an individual took a stimulant less than 15 days after the MAOI or even worse, took them together!

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2020, at 4:08:25

In reply to question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants, posted by cyb3rk4nt on May 18, 2020, at 3:06:00

there's a metabolic pathway that goes like this.

phenylalanine -> tyrosine -> l-dopa -> dopamine -> norepinepherine -> epinepherine.

neurones signal to one another by releasing norephinepherine into the synaptic cleft. it stays there for a time so other neurones receive the signal. then it mostly gets taken back up by the pre-synaptic neurone.

apparently amphetamines exhibit their effects by preventing re-uptake of norepinepherine. so the norephinepherine hangs about in the cleft for longer so has more of an effect on the neurones downstream.

apparently monoamine oxidase is a substance in the syndaptic cleft that in involved in the removal or norepinepherine (also serotonin and dopamine). so inhibiting an inhibitor would mean that the substance would hang about in the cleft for longer so having more of an effect on the neurones downstream.

so...

in other words...

i would expect them to be somethign of a multiplyer. don't remember the term. would expect the effects of both in combination to be greater than the sum of parts. like benzos + alcohol.

i wouldn't recommend it. that's likely why they say 'dangerous'.

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2020, at 4:09:42

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants, posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2020, at 4:08:25

that's why i wondered if there was an abuse potential in MAOI inhibitors. If taking them *experientially* is similar to taking amphetamines.

Just trying to get a handle on whether abuse potential is a factor in MAOI production / distribution.

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 7:01:16

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants, posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2020, at 4:09:42

> that's why i wondered if there was an abuse potential in MAOI inhibitors. If taking them *experientially* is similar to taking amphetamines.
>
> Just trying to get a handle on whether abuse potential is a factor in MAOI production / distribution.
>

Not normally, but some people can indeed get euphoric from MAOIs.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 7:07:11

In reply to question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants, posted by cyb3rk4nt on May 18, 2020, at 3:06:00

> Every time I've read the interactions for a drug that acts by either boosting and/or blocking the reuptake of both dopamine and norepinephrine, the biggest warning is to not take it at all within two weeks of taking an MAOI. This has interested me for a while now since I've been on Wellbutrin XL, an SNDRI, for 4 months now and adderall for like 3, (I only take the adderall like twice a week lol). Sorry if the question is dumb but most of the easily accessed info online only warns against it but rarely talks about the actual chemical reaction that would happen if an individual took a stimulant less than 15 days after the MAOI or even worse, took them together!
>

Amphetamines work like tyramine, releasing noradrenaline from the nerve terminals, and this increases blood pressure on its own, but even more so when MAO is inhibited, because it prevents the breakdown of noradrenaline.

Too much amphetamine taken under MAO inhibition can thus increase the blood pressure to dangerous levels.

That said, amphethamines can, with caution, be combined with MAOIs.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on May 18, 2020, at 8:12:03

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants, posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 7:07:11

Parnate can have an amphetamine like effect in that it also releases dopamine to some extent. Nardil doesn't have this effect directly, although it does metabolize to PEA which is an endogenous amphetamine. Interestingly inhibiting MAO-B also slows the breakdown of PEA. MAO-B inhibitors can have stimulant like effects in some individuals.

I would argue that MAOIs would give a 'boost' to most people, but that for 'normal' people it might produce some degree of agitation.

Linkadge

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » linkadge

Posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 8:56:28

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on May 18, 2020, at 8:12:03

> Parnate can have an amphetamine like effect in that it also releases dopamine to some extent.
>

What about serotonin and noradrenaline? Someone said Parnate could trigger temperature spikes, which suggests serotonin excess.

> Nardil doesn't have this effect directly, although it does metabolize to PEA which is an endogenous amphetamine. Interestingly inhibiting MAO-B also slows the breakdown of PEA.
>

Indeed, PEA may be the main substrate (more than dopamine) of MAO-B. Someone suggested it (MAO-B) could be called phenethylaminase.

> MAO-B inhibitors can have stimulant like effects in some individuals.
>

Does that apply to rasagiline? Selegiline (l-deprenyl) has l-amphetamine metabolites.

> I would argue that MAOIs would give a 'boost' to most people, but that for 'normal' people it might produce some degree of agitation.
>

Some people don't like the effects of cocaine, probably because they have a high endogenous dopaminergic tone. This would likely apply to MAOIs as well.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on May 18, 2020, at 10:37:58

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » linkadge, posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 8:56:28

I'm not sure. I haven't read too much on the nature of parnate's monoamine release. Unfortunately, I had a spontaneous hypertensive crisis on 40mg of parnate. I was yanked off even though it was working.

>Does that apply to rasagiline?

I would think so. MAO-B inhibitors can greatly magnify the actions of PEA. But you're right, rasagiline doesn't have amphetamine metabolites. Lithium appears to have a push/pull effect on PEA levels (i.e raising it when low and lowering it when high). I've often wondered about the use of selegeline for bipolar depression. I've used PEA + FO-TI before with good results. It is a very fast acting mood elevator. FO-TI contains emodin which is fairly selective to MAO-B inhibiton. I mix the two in a bottle and sip it while I go for a run.

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » linkadge

Posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 11:14:40

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on May 18, 2020, at 10:37:58

> I'm not sure. I haven't read too much on the nature of parnate's monoamine release. Unfortunately, I had a spontaneous hypertensive crisis on 40mg of parnate. I was yanked off even though it was working.
>

Sorry to hear that.

> depression. I've used PEA + FO-TI before with good results. It is a very fast acting mood elevator.
>

I know PEA is a very powerful drug when it reaches sufficient concentrations. I achieved that through selegiline, and I was abusing it, because I was seduced by the mood elevation. Then, at one point, I realised there was a total lack of results, and I stopped it, but I had already suffered the meth-like neurotoxicity by then. I feel I may be just about "recovered" now.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by linkadge on May 20, 2020, at 7:50:02

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » linkadge, posted by undopaminergic on May 18, 2020, at 11:14:40

I never really took enough to try and achieve a high, more just to get a mood boost. There is some evidence that PEA levels are low in depression. Strategies aimed at safely increasing their levels may improve depression for some individuals.

Linkadge

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » linkadge

Posted by undopaminergic on May 20, 2020, at 9:22:01

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants, posted by linkadge on May 20, 2020, at 7:50:02

> I never really took enough to try and achieve a high, more just to get a mood boost. There is some evidence that PEA levels are low in depression. Strategies aimed at safely increasing their levels may improve depression for some individuals.
>
> Linkadge

I wasn't really chasing a "high" either, but isn't a mood boost a minor high? I was in it also for the cognitive enhancement, but I got the opposite without realising it.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants

Posted by linkadge on May 20, 2020, at 17:08:17

In reply to Re: question: why are MAOIs dangerous with stimulants » linkadge, posted by undopaminergic on May 20, 2020, at 9:22:01

Well, I mix a cap of Fo-ti and 90mg of PEA inside a water bottle. Then I just take little sips.

If I'm really depressed (on the floor and can barely move) I just take tiny sips every 3-5min and (probably no more than 5-10mg of PEA) picks me up. It's not high, it's just enough energy to start moving again.

Linkadge


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