Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1109688

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Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:07:04

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2020, at 17:19:54

> >I think that getting high is just not a solution. >You just need to take a look at the people begging >for money at trainstations. Of course you >temporarily feel better. That is what illegal drugs >do.
>
> Maybe. Maybe not. How many doctors would have said that depressives were 'just getting high' on ketamine and then dismissed their reports?
>
> But, would cocaine's effect still only be temporary if you took it in lower doses, in a controlled release fashion?
>

Temporary, yes, just like other drugs. However, in an XR formulation, of course the duration of action would be much longer. Even without XR, the duration of an oral dose can be longer than an hour.

> Some studies suggest that what really makes cocaine abusable is the rate at which it occupies the dopamine transporter. I.e. snorting it gives a massive, sudden inhibition of DAT resulting in a huge surge of dopamine.
>

Yes. Nora Volkow suggested the rapid rise of dopamine (DA) with IV cocaine and methylphenidate mimics "phasic" DA firing rather than increased "tonic" concentration (of synaptic DA). "Phasic" is the kind of DAergic rise that takes place in "natural" dopamine release in response to reward (or reward-seeking). "Tonic" is the "background" concentration of DA.

Increased tonic DA still feels good, but there is none of the "rush" produced by phasic DA rise.

> The only difference between recreational cocaine and theaputic Ritalin, is perhaps dose. The same thing goes for recreational meth and therapeutic Dexedrine.
>

Roughly, yes, unless you meant Desoxyn. From what I understand, meth-amphetamine has some differences from "regular" amphetamine in terms of its relative potencies in releasing the different monoamines. IIRC serotonin and dopamine are relatively higher with meth. Meth also has a much longer half-life.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:16:31

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2020, at 17:22:25

> >Methylphenidate intravenously also produce a rush, >illegal or not.
>
> Exactly. That's why I wonder if a low dose long acting version of cocaine actually have therapeutic effect in depression? This is just a thought experiment, rather than a suggestion or recommendation to anybody.
>
> Linakdge
>
>

Freud used cocaine as an antidepressant, so yes, it works!

Incidentally, Freud reported a lack of nootropic effects, whereas he suggested caffeine did have such effects. In my experience, cocaine-like stimulants do have substantial nootropic effects, whereas caffeine alone has none (but that's just me). The combination of both is superior to either alone.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 3:19:42

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:16:31

If i ever get bored of my mental health, I will hit you guys up.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:21:55

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2020, at 17:24:33

> >It looks to me like many people here are at high >risk to abuse them one day because of their >attitude.
>
> In terms of health harms to society, the abuse of alcohol is ranked far more detrimental to health than cocaine. Yet, it's perfectly legal.
>
> Benzodiazapines can also be abused. For the record, I have never abused benzos, nor have I had difficulty getting off them.
>

Neither have I, but then again, I don't get any kind of reward from them. Even though they are useful for sleep, that sleep is kind of worthless in my experience.

As for cocaine-like stimulants, I have abused them, but I never got addicted, unless you mean I *needed* them to ward off apathy and suicidal ideation.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:28:10

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2020, at 18:02:16

> >This business of trying meds in general and especially addictive"meds" is risky.
>
> Everything is a risk. Severe unremitting depression is a serious risk. I've probably tried more meds than most people here:
>
> serzone, trazodone, mirtazapine, Prozac, Zoloft, paxil, celexa, escitalopram, luvox, venlafaxine, amitriptyline, nortriptyline, imipramine, doxepin, surmontil, clomipramine, parnate, lithium, depakote, carbamazepine, risperdone, olanzapine, Seroquel, thioridazine, perphenazine, lorazepam, valium, clonazepam, oxepam, bromazepam, fluorazepam, Ritalin, Dexedrine, straterra, atenolol, propranolol....probably a bunch I can't remember too.
>

I have tried more than most myself, but I have to say, I think you've tried even more.

You've done some heavy-duty antipsychotics. Was that for augmentation of antidepressants or did you have psychotic symptoms?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:33:10

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2020, at 18:09:18

> >Having grandiose delusions can also feel nice. It >does wonders for positive thinking. But, of course, >paranoid delusions can be hell.
>
> Weed for me helps in this regard. Being slightly detached from reality (for me) is very helpful during depressive episodes.
>

I agree, and I think I understand precisely what you mean. I got lasting depersonalisation from reboxetine (Edronax), and at the time, that really helped for my depression. As it is now, I want my emotions and my experience of the reality of reality back.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:41:17

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 23, 2020, at 21:38:33

> I guess many people here are effected more severely than I am right now. There was a time where I was in a really bad suicidal state. And I got out of it without controlled substances. But that doesn't mean that everyone will. I just wonder if something like Ritalin can really be a good thing when looking at the whole rest of your life. I don't know.
>

I concede that methylphenidate (Ritalin, Concerta) is not for *everyone*. But for me, it treated apathy and suicidal ideation, and none of my days were a complete failure as long as I took the drug. It was entirely a good thing. I can't think of anything negative about it, except perhaps the fact that the effects didn't last longer than the duration of a dose.

Taking neuroleptics is not risk-free either. I'd argue that it's better to be addicted to a drug than it is to have obesity and/or diabetes, or even worse, tardive dyskinesia.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:43:35

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 23, 2020, at 22:16:27

> I think that the major difference is that I live in a country where health insurance and the state have got my back. I can get help. And I did. Not just medical help, but also social. And not doing the med merry go round anymore has stabilized me, too. There is still some way to go, but I am content enough with how things are now. It is liveable.
>

Me too. As I've said, I don't have a "mood" disorder any more. But then again, I think I'd rather have a mood disorder than apathy.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 4:13:27

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 23, 2020, at 22:22:39

> cocaine = rush, euphoria, intense, feeling alive, common in upper rooms of nightclubs, your high no antidepressant effect
>

Feeling "euphoria" sounds like a great "antidepressant" effect if there ever was one.

> crack = 10x harder, only lasts a few mintues, ...

At least that's better than an orgasm.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:33:09

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:41:17

True, luckily, the weight gain problem is minimal at the time. I have lost 22 pounds in the last 6 months. I would have lost more, but i had an injury and dieting without resistance exercise is wasting your muscles. So I put the diet on hold. And it is also a question of how i want to be remembered. I guess I was never THAT depressed. And you were probably never THAT psychotic. I guess there are no easy answers with all powerful drugs, wether they are Neuroleptics or controlled substances. But you have to respect the controlled drugs and not take it lightly. You can go up to 400 pounds with Neuroleptics, or you can end up smoking crack 15 times a day and living on the streets when you do stimulants. So it is best to stay vigilant that you are not heading in that direction.


> Taking neuroleptics is not risk-free either. I'd argue that it's better to be addicted to a drug than it is to have obesity and/or diabetes, or even worse, tardive dyskinesia.
>
> -undopaminergic
>

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:48:05

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:33:09

When you have depression AND psychosis, that is where things get complicated. Just depression or just psychosis is much easier. Sigh. I have struggled with both. Remaining is mostly depression and social anxiety.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:55:36

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:33:09

When i watch people at trainstations, id rather be a diabetic fatass, but that is a matter of personal preference.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 5:17:43

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:33:09

> True, luckily, the weight gain problem is minimal at the time. I have lost 22 pounds in the last 6 months. I would have lost more, but i had an injury and dieting without resistance exercise is wasting your muscles.
>

Probably. I've lost 10 kgs recently, with only walking as an exercise. That is 5 kg too much relative to my goal.

> So I put the diet on hold. And it is also a question of how i want to be remembered.
>

Not sure what you mean.

> I guess I was never THAT depressed.

If you say so. I was never *THAT* depressed either. I was depressed enough to find reason to do what I did, including use stimulants.

> And you were probably never THAT psychotic.

I was paranoid delusional and hallucinating. That's pretty psychotic. But that was only for a short time. I suppose what you're trying to say is that my problems with psychosis were mild in comparison to yours. That is true from what I can tell.

> I guess there are no easy answers with all powerful drugs, wether they are Neuroleptics or controlled substances. But you have to respect the controlled drugs and not take it lightly.
>

I like to say don't take *life* too seriously: you won't get out alive!

> You can go up to 400 pounds with Neuroleptics, or you can end up smoking crack 15 times a day and living on the streets when you do stimulants. So it is best to stay vigilant that you are not heading in that direction.
>

Or you could end up under a bus. Life is full of risks, but nevertheless, we got *this* far, didn't we?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 5:20:45

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:55:36

Plus: I didnt even have the choice to not take the Neuroleptics. Once MAOI made me psychotic, that is.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 5:24:19

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 4:55:36

> When i watch people at trainstations, id rather be a diabetic fatass, but that is a matter of personal preference.
>

It's not like those people have no choice. At the very least, they could be on (affordable) buprenorphine or methadone. And not all of them have a drug problem. From what I understand, schizophrenia is not unusual in this population. But I don't know why schizophrenia would make you choose to be homeless... you could live a comfortable life in a psych ward.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 5:36:41

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 5:17:43

Sorry, that was unlucky. I was referring to what i said at the beginning of the post. I dont want to be remembered as a loony!

> > So I put the diet on hold. And it is also a question of how i want to be remembered.


 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 5:42:58

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 5:20:45

It wasnt a court order for Neuroleptics, but they wouldnt have helped me otherwise.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 6:20:30

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 5:20:45

> Plus: I didnt even have the choice to not take the Neuroleptics. Once MAOI made me psychotic, that is.
>

Me neither, at least for the most part.

But what choice do you have when you are apathetic and suicidal? Do you just 1) suffer, 2) kill yourself, or do you 3) try to do something about it, whether that means stimulants or Nardil? I chose (3). I don't feel I *had* a choice, really, so the 3 options are just hypothetical/technical.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 12:30:53

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 6:20:30

Yeah I get that. I was kind of forced by the outside more so than by the inside. I knew without support I couldnt withdraw the APs.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week

Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 12:34:20

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2020, at 12:30:53

I might have gotten to the point where the inside would have dictated that choice if I hadnt listened to the Drs. But nobody knows.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week rjlockhart37

Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2020, at 17:54:32

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 23, 2020, at 22:22:39

>cocaine = rush, euphoria, intense, feeling alive, >common in upper rooms of nightclubs, your high no >antidepressant effect

But how much of that is 'dose dependent'? Sure, snorting it is going to lead to a massive surge in monoamines causing a high. But what about lower doses delivered in a controlled fashion? I mean cocaine is a serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor. For somebody that is depressed, suicidal, apathetic, are you telling me that low dose, slow release cocaine would not do something similar to an SSRI + Ritalin?

Again, you could say the same about ketamine. You can take higher doses to get high, or you can take a controlled lower dose and have a life-saving antidepressant effect.


Linkadge

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2020, at 17:56:15

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 2:19:14

>Full remission? That is impressive!

More or less, but I'm not sure what is bearing the weight here. I'm taking lithium, venlafaxine, mirtazapine, medical marijuanna, and now Ritalin.

I don't want to take all these meds long term (for a variety of reasons) and am looking for something to cut.

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2020, at 18:09:14

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:16:31

>Incidentally, Freud reported a lack of nootropic >effects, whereas he suggested caffeine did have >such effects. In my experience, cocaine-like >stimulants do have substantial nootropic effects, >whereas caffeine alone has none (but that's just >me). The combination of both is superior to either >alone.

And that's the thing too. Cognitive difficulties in depression are a significant hinderance to recovery. I think for me (at least for the time being) the improvement in concentration and drive are why ritalin seems to be helping.

SSRIs do nothing for my drive, concentration, interest, apathy, psychomotor slowing etc. It many ways they make this worse. This has reciprocal effects on my self-esteem. Every time I quit something (lack of interest, concentration, memory etc) my depression gets worse.

With Ritalin I can actually 'get into' something, stay focused on it, and derive some pleasure from the completion of it. I'm only taking 5-10mg of it too.

Linkadge

 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2020, at 18:19:59

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:28:10

>You've done some heavy-duty antipsychotics. Was >that for augmentation of antidepressants or did you >have psychotic symptoms?

Thioridazine (lower potency) is not the same as thorazine. It is similar to perphenazine in some ways (mixed dopamine, serotonin antagonism). As to why...I'm not 100% sure. When depression meds didn't work one doctor wanted to go the bipolar route. I have to admit that lithium does help...but if I take it consistently I get really apathetic, so I take breaks. I don't have any 'classic' manic symptoms, but my mother is bipolar.

I think it was more related to agitation / anxiety. This was back in the early 2000's when olanzapine or seroquel was the 'go to' for all mental distress. Actually, I didn't mind olanzapine...it sufficiently wonked me out.


 

Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2020, at 18:38:18

In reply to Re: Starting Cocaine XR next week, posted by undopaminergic on April 24, 2020, at 3:33:10

>I agree, and I think I understand precisely what >you mean. I got lasting depersonalisation from >reboxetine (Edronax), and at the time, that really >helped for my depression. As it is now, I want my >emotions and my experience of the reality of >reality back.

Yeah, I can't seem to put my finger on my 'pattern' or what my problem is. My brain and thoughts just end up becoming so loud and painful that I just need to SHUT IT ALL DOWN. At this point, I resort to anything that will achieve this. However, I don't want to shut it down to 'depressed', so I look for things that can bring down the noise without causing depression. Being wonked out (I call it) is the only seeming state where my mind is not racing and I'm not depressed. I'm just detached and can let time pass giving my brain a chance to 'get a break'.

Honestly, I think its a 'hypercholinergic' state, as things like scopolamine do help.

Linkadge


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