Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1109574

Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 12, 2020, at 13:52:03

for the last 3 weeks i've been having to take GABA supplement with diazepam. This is what happpened, for years i was taking phenibut, it hits gaba beta receptors, not alpra which benzos do. I took for long, then i started realizing its effects faded or even made me irrtible when its suppost to relieve anixety. So i got off it, my doctor said its causes siezures in higher doses, was put on diazepam. It worked at first, i would notice a little calm, but now i have to take GABA supplement with it. If i don't there hardly is any effect. And after i take it, i realizee the relief that im suppost to have. Either the gaba receptors damageed or got tolerant, get on a prayer line to be healed of alterned nuerotransmitter receptors. I had anxiety and i took 2.5mg of diazepam, no effect, then 5mg, bearly an effect, then i took gaba supplement, and it totally worked. Now im afraid i have to be depednent on gaba supplement, you know the kind you go to health food stores, help with health and vitamins stuff. I have to take gaba supplement with diazpeam all the time for it adequate work. This just sucks....

anyone know how to levelize gaba levels do i just stop taking, if i stop diazepam, i can go without it, but i will have stinging feeling in nerves, and be bad mood. And even with 10mg of it, i can still feel that background sting on your nerves, kinda like anticipation anxiety. I mean if i have too from now, have to take GABA supplement, i guess ill have too. But its just really agonizing to think about that i have to do that.

any comments or suggestion would be nice

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 12, 2020, at 14:03:20

In reply to does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 12, 2020, at 13:52:03

GABA supplement is the chemical that makes the neurotransmitter GABA, so either GABA levels have lowered, or damaged. When i take the supplement, i can notice a difference, not as in benzo, but it feels like a replenishment. Kinda like taking l-tyrosine for low dopamine and norepinephrine levels.

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by linkadge on April 12, 2020, at 15:30:02

In reply to does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 12, 2020, at 13:52:03

I also take GABA (in addition to CBD) for anxiety.

Don't see it as a negative. If it works, it works. You might also try adding a bit of magnesium and/or niacin (which can also make benzos work better).

For example, this study suggests that magnesium can significantly enhance the effects of benzodiazepines (at least in animal models).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18799816

In the past, I have taken gaba + clonazepam + magnesium + niacin. This allowed me to use the smallest dose of clonazepam as possible.

Linkadge

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by linkadge on April 12, 2020, at 15:35:25

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 12, 2020, at 14:03:20

Tolerance is not the same as brain damage. Just because something doesn't work as well as it originally did, doesn't mean there is brain damage.

Receptors downregulate and upregulate in response to changing levels of a neurotransmitter. Some people get a full tolerance to a benzodiazepine, some people don't. A few tips to help it continue to work include:

- keep the dose as low as possible
- add other calming supplements (niacin, gaba, tryptophan, taurine, magnesium etc)
- don't oversleep if possible
- have something to offset daytime sedation (i.e. caffeine)

Linkadge


 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by undopaminergic on April 13, 2020, at 7:55:27

In reply to does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 12, 2020, at 13:52:03

What do you think about this? It's UK doctor Peter Smith's opinion on GABA supplements, especially with respect to the blood-brain-barrier:

https://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/167/Why-You-Shouldn't-Take-GABA-Supplements.html

-undopaminergic

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 13, 2020, at 8:01:01

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by undopaminergic on April 13, 2020, at 7:55:27

It's a good question. Normally I defer to the experts but having taken GABA on and off, there is absolutely an effect.

Some theories as to how / why include:

- some GABA may cross the BBB
- may be altering gut bacteria positively
- muscle relaxant effects of GABA in periphery
- may affect lower brainstem / vagal nerve

Not sure. All I can say is try it. It does have an effect. Not quite as potent as picamillon.

Linkadge


 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by undopaminergic on April 13, 2020, at 9:11:21

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on April 13, 2020, at 8:01:01

> It's a good question. Normally I defer to the experts but having taken GABA on and off, there is absolutely an effect.
>
> Some theories as to how / why include:
>
> - some GABA may cross the BBB
> - may be altering gut bacteria positively
> - muscle relaxant effects of GABA in periphery
> - may affect lower brainstem / vagal nerve
>
> Not sure. All I can say is try it. It does have an effect. Not quite as potent as picamillon.
>
> Linkadge
>

What he's saying is that if it does have an effect for you, then your BBB isn't up to standard. The other reasons that you mention are plausible, but he doesn't address them.

I don't have a reason to use it myself. If I do need more inhibitory neurotransmission, I would want D2-, D3-, and/or D4-dopaminergic agonism. Speaking of which, it is interesting to note that the pleasing effects of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens (NAc) are inhibitory, or in other words, the VTA dopaminergic neurons inhibit the shell of the NAc to produce its rewarding effects.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by linkadge on April 13, 2020, at 13:02:14

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by undopaminergic on April 13, 2020, at 9:11:21

>dopamine in the nucleus accumbens (NAc) are >inhibitory, or in other words, the VTA dopaminergic >neurons inhibit the shell of the NAc to produce its >rewarding effects.

Right. Research points to the notion that dopamine is more involved in reward anticipation, rather than reward itself.

Of note, GABA isn't routinely inhibitory. It can sometimes reverse dopamine induced inhibition (evidenced by the fact that benzodiazepine often augment antipsychotics in the treatment of schizophrenia).

I have read the research on GABA with regards to the blood brain barrier, but I'm also saying that it has an effect. I don't buy the notion that my blood brain barrier is 'dysfunctional' but that there is likely an alternative explanation for how it works.

Research on GABA not crossing the blood brain barrier is somewhat limited (and restricted to animals), so it is possible that it partially crosses. I am not a biologist but am a bit confused as to why picamilon (GABA bound to niacin) ostensibly readily crosses the blood brain barrier while a smaller portion of that molecule (i.e. gaba) does not.

But again, to people who doubt it has a function just need to try it (of course, only if they want).

Linkadge


 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic

Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 13, 2020, at 15:14:32

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by undopaminergic on April 13, 2020, at 7:55:27

you told me before, that maybe i had a leaky blood brain barrier, well i think your right because when i take GABA i mean....it does provide a calm, and it will enhance, well enhance but replenish, or restore lowered GABA levels, but last night i did something really stupid, i was arguement, and had some stress, i took 7.5mg of diazepam, small effect, not how its suppot to be. Then i took GABA 1000mg, i felt better, then i got stupid and i took 2000mg of GABA, that was biggest f-up i had insomni last night, i took my seroquel, everything that suppost to knock you out, it didknt, i've been taking phenibut once a while, but as much as i did before i started diazepam, but for several days i havve not taken phenibut, and i know what's withdraawl effects, but there were no cold and clammy hands, i just could not get to sleep. For about 2 hours, i went into the hypersleep ever gone, i finally got to sleep at 8am, and my dreams were so vivid, there were multiple stories in the dreams, and i kept seeing 5pm in dreams, that it was time to wake up.... and then i woke up thinking it was 2pm. It was only 10am. So 2 hours brain went into most hypersleep i've done. And it....REM sleep restores brain function. I've never had multiple stories and vivid dreams in only 2 hours

but i took diazepam this morning, it got me sleep at 8am, and then 10am i woke up, i was so skyrocketed with anxiety, diazepam had no effect whatsoever. It was as, i needed to take propranolol to block the adrenaline and norepinephrine.

I'm awake and doing ok, im in active state, i don't feel worn down. 2hour hypersleep, never had such a deep sleep with vivid dreams

anyways, i think i do have a leaky blood brain barrier, but what stupid rj did was he thought to take 2000mg of GABA thinking it would totally demish the anxiety, it back fired. Also i had wine cooler, paradox reaction is what had. I was anxious, almost angry.

hopefully this will happen again, and tonight ill get a good night sleep.

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors linkadge

Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 13, 2020, at 15:24:07

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by linkadge on April 12, 2020, at 15:35:25

rj did somethign stupid last night, like i said i was stressed out from an arguement, and just non immportant things to post, took 7.5 diazepam, i took it, had little effect, then took 1000mg GABA noticed a effect, calmed down, then before bed i took another 1000mg and that was where rj was dumbass, but it's worked before, but i had paradox reaction, i was anxious almost in angry state becaue of the agitated feeling i had.

Finally it wore off, then after 6 hours of just laying thete with eyes closed, 8am finally went to sleep, then had the most hypersleep i've ever had, i had vivid dreams, and just multiple stories, and i kept seeing it was time wake up. Thinking it was 2pm and i got rested, it eas 10am, so for 2 hours i was in a hypersleep. It's happened once before, and it usally happens in emergency things, where i have to get sleep in small amount of time. Hypersleep. But .... i haven't taken phenibut, i stopped it and was totally fine. Rough night.

i've had paradox reactions, i've stayed up for 3 days one time, because of insomnia. The norepinephrine overload that kept me awake. Diazepam had no effect, i need propranolol, and some other benzo that was more potent, like clonazepam.

anyways .... thanks for response

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 13, 2020, at 15:37:23

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 13, 2020, at 15:14:32

*hopefully this will not happen again

correction

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by undopaminergic on April 14, 2020, at 7:26:24

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by linkadge on April 13, 2020, at 13:02:14

> >dopamine in the nucleus accumbens (NAc) are >inhibitory, or in other words, the VTA dopaminergic >neurons inhibit the shell of the NAc to produce its >rewarding effects.
>
> Right. Research points to the notion that dopamine is more involved in reward anticipation, rather than reward itself.
>

I agree it is mostly anticipatory. The emotion it produces can be called "desire" or "wanting"; desire to pursue something perceived as rewarding. With stimulants, there is no increase in consummatory reward ("liking", "enjoying"). However, the desire (or "lust" or "enthusiasm") *is* rewarding in its own right.

That said, pramipexole was anti-anhedonic for me. I enjoyed music, food, and movies, in a way I hadn't since the depression started and until I tried pramipexole; and I do mean "enjoyed"! What do you make of that?

> Of note, GABA isn't routinely inhibitory. It can sometimes reverse dopamine induced inhibition (evidenced by the fact that benzodiazepine often augment antipsychotics in the treatment of schizophrenia).
>

Well, as far as I know, GABA is inhibitory in its direct effect on the postsynaptic neuron. It does inhibit dopaminergic inhibition of the NAc, but it does so by inhibiting VTA dopamine neurons.

> I have read the research on GABA with regards to the blood brain barrier, but I'm also saying that it has an effect. I don't buy the notion that my blood brain barrier is 'dysfunctional' but that there is likely an alternative explanation for how it works.
>

I don't know much about the details of how the BBB works, but I do know that most neurotransmitters (including dopamine, noradrenaline, and serotonin) do not cross the BBB.

> Research on GABA not crossing the blood brain barrier is somewhat limited (and restricted to animals), so it is possible that it partially crosses. I am not a biologist but am a bit confused as to why picamilon (GABA bound to niacin) ostensibly readily crosses the blood brain barrier while a smaller portion of that molecule (i.e. gaba) does not.
>

It's not just about size; polarity and lipophilicity play a role too. In addition, there is active transport of select molecules (eg. tyrosine, tryptophan) across.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by linkadge on April 14, 2020, at 9:29:02

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors linkadge, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 13, 2020, at 15:24:07

I would see if you can find other supplements to cycle with the GABA. Gaba is safe, but its a good idea to cycle supplements to ensure they remain effective.

Linkadge

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 14, 2020, at 9:32:57

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by undopaminergic on April 14, 2020, at 7:26:24

>However, the desire (or "lust" or "enthusiasm") >*is* rewarding in its own right.

I completely agree. The medications I was taking (mostly serotonin enhancing) kept me emotionally stable but there was a severe lack of goal directed behavior.

With a bit of Ritalin, I have been able to formulate some (small) goals and have the focus and energy to make them happen.

The act of setting a goal and achieving it (even if there is some struggle in-between) is more rewarding than sitting around doing nothing.

Linkadge

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic

Posted by linkadge on April 14, 2020, at 9:50:58

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by undopaminergic on April 14, 2020, at 7:26:24

>until I tried pramipexole; and I do mean "enjoyed"! >What do you make of that?

My theory is that the drug first creates reward anticipation (supressing the NAc to initiate the hunt for reward) and also enhances the cognitive processes involved in obtaining the reward (thinking, concentration, planning). As the drug leaves the system the NAc begins firing again resulting in some level of satisfaction with what has been accomplished. Just a theory.


Linkadge

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by undopaminergic on April 14, 2020, at 10:20:45

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on April 14, 2020, at 9:50:58

> >until I tried pramipexole; and I do mean "enjoyed"! >What do you make of that?
>
> My theory is that the drug first creates reward anticipation (supressing the NAc to initiate the hunt for reward) and also enhances the cognitive processes involved in obtaining the reward (thinking, concentration, planning). As the drug leaves the system the NAc begins firing again resulting in some level of satisfaction with what has been accomplished. Just a theory.
>

I'm not sure I understand. I did not have to wait to reap the satisfaction till the drug had left the system. Also, these things (eg. listening to music) I enjoyed did not require much cognition at all.

Could it be that dopamine D3 somehow activates endogenous opioids? Or other reward mechanisms.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by linkadge on April 14, 2020, at 18:33:59

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by undopaminergic on April 14, 2020, at 10:20:45

>I did not have to wait to reap the satisfaction >till the drug had left the system. Also, these >things (eg. listening to music) I enjoyed did not >require much cognition at all.

Yeah. Who knows, but I hear what you're saying. For me ritalin is a bit rewarding in the sense that it kills the noise in my head (creating a feeling of peace / control). For music, it could be that dopamine creates a degree of synchronization that aids in the appreciation of music. It may too depend on your baseline serotonin levels.

I think there is an interaction with opioid systems. Ritalin has been used to enhance the pain killing property of certain drugs. However, this could be due to the NRI action. NRIs typically enhance the painkilling effect of opioids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24578192

Mirapex is linked to pathalogical gambling. For individuals who succumb to this side effect, there is more reward anticipation than reward itself. If you 'feel' you've already hit the jackpot with the drug, you don't need to keep putting coins in the slots.

Linkadge


 

Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors

Posted by undopaminergic on April 16, 2020, at 7:56:42

In reply to Re: does anyone know about GABA receptors, posted by linkadge on April 14, 2020, at 18:33:59

> >I did not have to wait to reap the satisfaction >till the drug had left the system. Also, these >things (eg. listening to music) I enjoyed did not >require much cognition at all.
>
> Yeah. Who knows, but I hear what you're saying. For me ritalin is a bit rewarding in the sense that it kills the noise in my head (creating a feeling of peace / control).
>

That is the so-called "paradoxical calming" response to stimulants in people with ADHD. I don't get that with methylphenidate, but I did with phenylethylamine for the first few doses. I agree the feeling of calm and control is rewarding in a way, but not quite the same way as the tranquility you can feel with opioids. Of course, attention is also improved with the calm and silence, which reduces inner distraction. I also found that in this state, short-term memory was much improved, but it was probably secondary to the improved attention.

> For music, it could be that dopamine creates a degree of synchronization that aids in the appreciation of music. It may too depend on your baseline serotonin levels.
>

Why serotonin?

I found the music actually *sounded* better, not just that I enjoyed it more. Colours were more vivid, and food and drink tasted better.

Dopamine is also linked to salience. Certainly the music was more salient, but there was more to it than that.

-undopaminergic


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